Slow Spool on the 2.3

[AL92]

Hi Andy,
I had a few slow spool issues in my cars. Make sure you check your turbo to exhuaust bolts to make sure they are tight and no loose and of course if you have any loose bolts on the exhaust manifold also. I have to go back and check mine every so often think the 2.4 vibrates them loose much faster than a 2.0. But I have poly front and back rollstop inserts,no balance shafts,fluidampr balancer but didnt' get engine balanced.

Also I think the cams are doing a large part of this.I have the crower stage 3s.I am pretty sure read that they do cause a slower spool in tests.I have not checked my
boost but think its also higher than some guys get with a 2.3 or 2.4 on same turbo.
I do have the gm maf and have a sheet metal jm fab intake which maybe also increases spool time a bit. In fact sometimes think that a FP3052 would be a bit better for around town stuff but my 3065 has that extra 150 hp of potential or so and find that hard to give up. I may not use all that extra power everyday but knowing its there if I want it to be is maybe worth a bit slower spool.The slower spool is not necessariy any problem. I can launch at higher rpm or off my stutterbox if want to build and get going quicker.I can downshift to second from third in town and to fourth or third on highway. Its only a bit laggy when punch it in third like you said and don't gear down. I think I actually got a bit quicker spool now since just installed my COP. I wonder if your msd is working 100% heard a lot of bad things on those units.
I would be curious to see what some adjustable cam gears could do in my car also.I need to figure out how to post my logs in table form I can't so far even get them over to my pc.I am not very computer savy.Be very interested to see what playing with the cam timing does. Moving the power band down a bit might be nice since the car is mostly around town car.And its way crazy up top right now.

I also found what you did..loosing timing makes the car more doggy and does kill torque.
I think like I am going you should get a meth injection and up your timing and lean out your afr more. The meth injection is more effective than an fmic for intake charge cooling.Also thought bigger intercoolers can also slow spool.I have a pretty huge one on my car and that might be another reason for my slower spool. Still just guessing I think I am spooling my 3065 about the same rpms you are spooling your smaller turbo.

 

[topstreet]

Hey Andy!

I have been thinking about this a little more now, and would like it if you could post a picture of your engine bay. Just in case there may be something that I am overlooking because I am not right up there.

Thanks,

Jake

EDIT: as a quick addition, what are the specs on the turbo. Wheels, A/R's, anything else that may be useful.

 

[92awddsm]

Hey Andy!



EDIT: as a quick addition, what are the specs on the turbo. Wheels, A/R's, anything else that may be useful.

Its a to4b 50 trim with (if I remember correctly) a t31(stage 3) turbine and a bolt on turbine housing, probably bullseye.

 

[topstreet]

Ok cool! Thanks.

This is on a obx ram style manifold correct?... Or am I thinking of someone else?

Not trying to scare you or anything, but did you see this? Take a good look at where the cracking began. Right along the unanealed welds for the waste gate. It would be worth taking a look at for piece of mind if nothing else. If that is the case and these are showing cracking then get them re-tig welded with 347 filler rod. And if this has nothing to do with your car and I am totally thinking of someone else, then sorry. Thinking about this is keeping me awake at this point

Can I get a pic of the engine bay?

 

[92awddsm]

Ok cool! Thanks.

This is on a obx ram style manifold correct?... Or am I thinking of someone else?

Not trying to scare you or anything, but did you see this? Take a good look at where the cracking began. Right along the unanealed welds for the waste gate. It would be worth taking a look at for piece of mind if nothing else. If that is the case and these are showing cracking then get them re-tig welded with 347 filler rod. And if this has nothing to do with your car and I am totally thinking of someone else, then sorry. Thinking about this is keeping me awake at this point

Can I get a pic of the engine bay?

Its Paul that has that manifold, not Andy.

 

[andymoraitis]

Sorry I haven't been checking this thread lately guys. Anyway, Keith has it right. I have a 50 trim with a stage III .63 A/R wheel mated to a Bullseye housing. The manifold is a ported 2G with a Punishment Racing O2 that feeds into a 3" turboback with a hollowed cat.

I'm running an 11:1 A/F in the chip with more timing advance from 2000-4000 that peaks at a max of 8 degrees under the highest four load maps at WOT. The biggest concern at this point is that I'm blowing blue smoke at WOT. Adding the restrictor didn't change this and while the turbo has no in and out shaft play, there's a tiny bit of side to side. I don't see evidence of scratch marks from the wheel contacting the compressor inlet but nevertheless, it's a bit annoying. Just for kicks, I'm going to be switching from 15W-50 synthetic to 5W-30 to see if that has any effect.

Other than that, I just really don't care all that much anymore. I've spent way too much on this car as it is and since it'll never see the track until it gets a better clutch I'm not worried about it anymore. If the oil burning through the hotside stops, that'll be enough for now.

 

[99gst_racer]

Take a good look at where the cracking began. Right along the unanealed welds for the waste gate.

Not to get too off topic, but that is not exactly like mine. That must be an older one. Mine is different in a couple ways (that I can see). Also, that wastegate tube is not original. That it somebody elses work, and could be the reason for failure.....

Just for kicks, I'm going to be switching from 15W-50 synthetic to 5W-30 to see if that has any effect.

Andy, I'm sure Dan has already told you, but he just switched to a thinner oil, and it also supressed much of his slow spool problems. It might be worth a shot.

 

[andymoraitis]

Andy, I'm sure Dan has already told you, but he just switched to a thinner oil, and it also supressed much of his slow spool problems. It might be worth a shot.

I'll just be happy if it stops the oil burning in the exhaust at this point to be truthful. The strange thing is that I'm running 15W-50 Mobil 1 and it's not THAT thick, but the motor may see a big difference going to 5W-30 Mobil 1 instead. I've also been blowing rich so I dialed base fuel pressure back to 40 psi to add some leanness and snap to the low end. I don't plan on running more than 25 psi so I don't think the injectors will be too freaked out by it. I'll look at knock and see what it looks like at WOT.

I'll be changing the oil tomorrow and will post back on any results. I may also try running with no boost source to the external to see if something's up there. I remember spool being the same before and after the shims but I may remove those just to see if it makes a difference. If anything, the shims should hold the gate more tightly and encourage faster spool, but we'll see.

Bah, this is getting tiring. I still think the cams aren't helping.

 

[topstreet]

The manifold is a ported 2G with a Punishment Racing O2 that feeds into a 3" turboback with a hollowed cat.

Sorry Guys! I am getting the two of you mixed up. I thought I saw a very similar manifold in another post of yours Andy, but it must have be you Paul.

Sorry for the mix up. I am sitting here thinking to myself, what this might be.

Like I said before, the only things that have seemed out of the ordinary, that I have uncovered for boost leaks are: Compressor backing plate leakage, aftermarket intake manifold w/ a split, cracked manifold, or failing turbo. These are what I have uncovered in the past on customer cars. If these have been covered though, I dont know how much more I can help over the web.

Good luck to you!

Jake

 

[andymoraitis]

As a quick update, I changed the oil out for 5W-30 full synthetic. Oil pressure at WOT no longer passes 100 psi, but runs about that much. I'd say it dropped oil pressure a good 10-15 psi, which is fine by me. There's no real blue tinge to the exhaust anymore although it still likes to blow black. I had my wife follow me while I hammered on it and after she passed through the cloud, she told me it smelled like raw fuel and not oil. I also re-checked the turbo for play and there's still no in and out and very minor side to side. The wheel also spins freely in both directions and there's no evidence of scratching on the compressor inlet.

So how did it spool? The same. I still think I have a cam issue. My idle is pretty low (around 650 from the MAF being hacked) and it still pulls 15-16 in/hg. At 1100 RPM idle, I see 19 in/hg. I'm willing to bet that the cams are probably retarded the equivalent of 2-3 degrees on the straight up install. Since the head has never been decked, I'm going to get together with Kyle next month and advance the intake cam a full tooth. In light of how much it's likely off, I can live with 4-5 degrees of advance on the intake just to see if it makes a marked difference. If it does, I'll pick up a set of adjustables and dial them in at the correct ratio. For the purposes of experimentation it may be a bit too much but it'll at least tell me if that's the issue or not.

Also, while the low end response was nice at 40 psi base fuel pressure, the motor didn't like that at 25 psi on pump and was showing me around 5-7 counts of knock. Setting base fuel back to 43 got rid of the knock completely on 8 degrees of peak advance and the motor still pulled like a freight train.

Sorry for the novel.

 

[fourreGsixty3]

Sounds like you have formulated what the problems could be, and what to do to fix them, sorry to hear that the restictor didn't help.

Dustin

 

[AL92]

Andy are you 100% sure you gasket is good between the exh man and the turbo and bolts are tight? And ditto on the bolts to the exh manifold ?

I think playing with cam timing should do something to your powerband not sure how much effect it has on spool have on spool but I would trade a bit of top end for a bit more bottom I think on my car too.

 

[andymoraitis]

Dustin: No worries on the restrictor. It was an inexpensive investment and something that was needed to maintain correct oil pressure to the center section anyway.

Allan: Exhaust manifold and all related gaskets are in perfect shape. With the exception of the manifold to head gasket, which is new, Paul gave me the entire turbo, manifold, and O2 bolted together. He ran the same boost on his 2.0 with much better spool, so it would be a stretch to assume that everything started leaking with a simple swap. Besides, I smell no fumes in the engine compartment and the bolts are incredibly tight.

It's the cams I tell you! I built this motor because I love low end. Adjusting the cams will certainly help bring the torque peak down and bring the spool on sooner. I'll update when we make the change.

 

[fourreGsixty3]

Well what are you waiting for Andy? Go borrow those 2g cams from Matt, or just get some adjustables, they won't hurt you

Dustin

 

[CanadianTSi]

As for how far 650's will go, my car at 24psi on 94 Octane and 11:1-11.3:1 AFR is hitting 100-105% duty cycle.

 

[andymoraitis]

As for how far 650's will go, my car at 24psi on 94 Octane and 11:1-11.3:1 AFR is hitting 100-105% duty cycle.

Yup, you and I are really stretching it Ty. 750's or 850's would have been a better choice.

 

[CanadianTSi]

Yup, you and I are really stretching it Ty. 750's or 850's would have been a better choice.

Ya I think i'll pick up some 850's over the winter. At the time I got the 650's I knew I would never go bigger than a 16g. Funny how things change

 

[andymoraitis]

Ya I think i'll pick up some 850's over the winter. At the time I got the 650's I knew I would never go bigger than a 16g. Funny how things change

Interestingly enough, I said the same thing to myself. I guess you can induct us both into the "failure to plan for the future" club. I'll probably do the same and just re-chip for it. The funny thing is that I know I'm out of injector when I add crap loads of octane, reduce timing and still knock at 30 psi. I don't even need to see IDC's to know I'm pushing it. Guess I'll stick with 25 for now or really lean out the A/F in an attempt to bring IDC back down. Not that it'll help all that much.

 

[topstreet]

Hey Andy,

Thanks for the update. I wanted just to tell you that I talked with a person out by me and they were a little conserned about the "restrictor." They said that the problem with the restrictor was that it will choke it with lower pressure and be where it should be with the higher pressure. I then mentioned that without it... Wouldnt it be over flowing?.. And they said yes, but this is why fluid systems have a pressure "relief" in them instead of the restrictor. Now the thing about this is, this person deals with hydrolics, not turbos specifically. So, I wanted to give you a little bit of a heads up, but not to try and act like I know that specific setup better or anything like that.

So the conclusion would be that, if the setup has been working for someone else and you. And the both of you are happy, then cool. I just wanted to bring up a word of caution.

Good Luck!

Jake

 

[andymoraitis]

Jake,

I always value your knowledge and thank you for jumping in. I discussed this same thing with the tech at Garrett and he told me that it would only be allowable to run a larger feed fitting if I had a larger drain. Now my setup is your typical G-series return (similar to a -10 AN size), but he said this still wouldn't be enough to get all of the oil out that the higher pressure is creating. So far, I think it was the right choice and Keith has been running his for a while with no issues so I'm not worried.

At least she's not blowing blue anymore. I can mostly attribute this to lighter oil, but I'm sure the restrictor helps out plenty.

I'll keep you posted on how it goes with the cam adjustments!

Andy

 

[99gst_racer]

Now my setup is your typical G-series return (similar to a -4 AN size),

Actually, your return line is -10AN (5/8") and your feed is -4AN (1/4").

 

[andymoraitis]

Ah thanks Paul, I always get that -AN stuff screwed up. I've corrected my post as well.

 

[topstreet]

Hey Andy!

What valve springs are you using in your car? What are they setup like and what milage is on them?

 

[project_tsi]

He's running stock valvetrain w/ 7x,xxx miles.

 

[DSM90AWD]

Actually, your return line is -10AN (5/8") and your feed is -4AN (1/4").

For the archives, when I was trying to replace my return line (AGP's with the SS hardline with 5/8" rubber flex) I found that the -10AN SS line was actually 9/16 (0.563)" ID. The -10AN Posi-Lock blue on the other hand runs a true 5/8 (0.625)"ID.

Other SS AN Sizes I looked at:

AN....ID Est"....ID Act"....ID Act"
-3.....0.188........0.140.......5/32
-4.....0.250........0.218.......7/32
-6.....0.375........0.343.......11/32
-8.....0.500........0.438.......7/16
-10...0.625........0.563.......9/16

Glad the thinner oil worked out somewhat for you Andy. As I'd said, I've never gone above 30W and have a 16yo unopened engine

Do you have any recent datalogs that show your timing map and airflow? Converting my tune from a DSMChip to DSMLink recently, I found that ignition timing had a huge impact to my performance. Stepping from a total 15* to 17* improved my speed by 3MPH. Also keeping the timing higher (as stock) in the lower RPMs aided spool.

Not to discount that your cams may be to blame. I'd mentioned before that I had the same thing happen to me (albeit one tooth off on the crank) and battled diagnosing my poor performance for nearly two years