Slow Spool on the 2.3

[topstreet]

I doubt I will put my future FFWD stroker past 7400rpm though.
Dustin

I am using his crank, rods and ross pistons.

 

[andymoraitis]

Andy, I'm like 99.7% sure I RTV'd it, but not 100% sure. If I were you, I'd double check it just to be on the safe side. But then again, if it were leaking, you would have caught it on the boost leak test.

We could still have a problem since I bypass the turbo and connect to the LICP or the sidemount when I run my leak tests. I generally don't see the turbio as a leak spot and that's why I don't like to force 25-30 psi of air through the seals when it's not oiled. I tried pulling the comp cover bolts off, but it's like the damn things are fused on there from the heat. If the restrictor doesn't do anything, my next option is to yank the whole assembly off and have another look, unless you think running a bead on the outside will be good enough (I doubt it).

Jake, I get what you're saying about picking up the torque peak. I need to get this thing on a load holding dyno and see where diffrent shift points will affect it in terms of picking up max torque in the next gear. This was an old trick we used when I was racing V8 Mustangs. Good stuff.

Andy from what I have read I think Keith has it right that it decreases spool time, if the oil pressure is too low the bearing doesnt have enough oil to float, and if it is too high the pressure pushes down on the bearing, creating friction and there for slowing spool. When the oil pressure is between 55-60psi it doesnt have too much pressure pushing the journal bearing, and creating friction with the shaft, and its not too low and starving the bearing of oil to "float" on, and killing the turbo quickly.

If Keith's talking about the right oil pressure, than yes it makes sense. Either way, it's simple physics and easily understood.

 

[topstreet]

Sounds good! I didnt want to get TOO off topic. I just wanted to give you alittle nudge so that you bring that thing up higher and get the potential it has in it.

Definitly keep use posted.

Jake

 

[andymoraitis]

No worries Jake. There's some good info in there and once we resolve the spool issues, Jeff and I will play around with the tune. This thing really needs an FMIC to get the most out of the timing maps though.

 

[CanadianTSi]

This thing really needs an FMIC to get the most out of the timing maps though.

Never thought I'd hear you say that, If only you had of listened to me when you first joined

 

[fourreGsixty3]

Yeah drop that SMIC for a FMIC, and get that 2G MAS out of there so you can up the boost past 30psi

Dustin

 

[andymoraitis]

Yeah drop that SMIC for a FMIC, and get that 2G MAS out of there so you can up the boost past 30psi

Dustin

I have no lower honeycomb in the MAF now. Fifty bucks says I can run 30+ but the bigger issue is that the clutch won't hold it. Shoulda built a damn 2.0 and called it a day. Then again, it may be fun tuning this thing up and running 11's without an FMIC, AFC, Link or MAFT. How about that for some stink eye?

 

[fourreGsixty3]

I think I will keep my 50$ and take your word for it bro. But that FMIC sure wil be good, and look real sexy filling up the grill of your sexy GSX. Like I told you before get a 2900 PP, you wont have any problems holding that TQ.

Dustin

 

[andymoraitis]

I agree Dustin. A 2900 will be perfect for it, but I've made some adjustments to the slave and bled the hydraulics. She seems to hold better with a slightly higher release and the transmission is much smoother with respect to gear engagement. I'm going to be dropping the timing and adding some octane to see how she handles 30 psi on 8 degrees. If the clutch can hold it, I'll track it that way and see how it does. Next season I'll work on addressing the bottlenecks and dialing in the cams for better performance. I may just hit a dyno this year and see what the numbers look like as well.

Spool first, VE and holding power later!

 

[fourreGsixty3]

I sure would like to see you hit the dyno, because Im kind of curious as to what kind of numbers you will put down. Well I hope the 2100 holds after you up the boost and add octane...and go to 8* of timing too. Just you mentioning pushing 30psi makes me hate myself for pulling my engine, and starting a slow 2 year full build up...but I guess I will be happier in the long run.

Dustin

 

[topstreet]

Andy: Not trying to get too far off topic here. I am just not sure your 650cc inj. are going to with stand that.

 

[92awddsm]

Spool first, VE and holding power later!

Restrictor is in the mail. You should have it by Friday at the latest. I shipped it before lunch, priority mail. If usps does their job(unlikely), its a possibility that you will get it tomorrow.

 

[99gst_racer]

Andy: Not trying to get too far off topic here. I am just not sure your 650cc inj. are going to with stand that.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

On my recent dyno trip, at 400WHP and 12.3:1 AFR, I was using 69% of my 850's.

I would assume, if Andy was making similar power on a similar AFR, he would be somewhere around 91% of those 650's. And a richer mixture will only raise that percentage. I suspect a near future injector upgrade.

 

[project_tsi]

Bah... up the fuel pressure call it a day.

 

[andymoraitis]

Jake and Paul are right about the 650's. They're not enough and I know it.

On to other matters, I got Keith's restrictor in the mail today, slapped it on AND...there was no difference in spool. I saw 25 psi by 4400 as per usual. I still get a very light blue tinge to the exhaust on wide open throttle, but the motor feels strong. Overall I'm disappointed that this did nothing for my spool times.

The only option is to mess with the cam timing which I'll probably do as soon as funds allow.

Back to the drawing board...

 

[Rick@AP]

Making the assumption that you are still on the 50 trim turbo, you definitely have an issue.

A 50 trim should spool like a small 16g on a 2.3l. I'm running a gt37/40 variant and I'm getting full boost close to the same rpm you are. Yes, I'm running standalone and speed density but you still should see full boost A LOT earlier.

I'm going to ask you a very stupid question as I'm sure this was one of the first things you checked. Years ago I had a problem just as you described and it turned out that my Richard Lee wastegate was totally shot. Have you throughly checked out your wastegate?

 

[92awddsm]

Years ago I had a problem just as you described and it turned out that my Richard Lee wastegate was totally shot. Have you throughly checked out your wastegate?

Tial 38mm wg and it the spring has been shimmed to hold more boost.

Ok Andy, I am stumped. I still have a couple more ideas but lets try one at a time. Are you still running a catalytic converter? Have you tried running aroud the block with an open dp to see if it affects spool any?

 

[andymoraitis]

As far as the wastegate goes, Keith has it dead on. It's a Tial 38 and there are two 2" flat washers in the top mated to 21.75 psi worth of internal springs. It holds boost like a champ (25 psi).

Keith: I do have a high flow, but the internals were knocked out of it. I can't disconnect the downpipe since the Tial's dump tube is welded into it without disconnecting the top of the wastegate dump from the gate.

I'm not sure what else you have up your sleeve, but aside of cam work, I'm out of options.

 

[project_tsi]

I'm just throwing this out there Andy, but perhaps there is something wrong with Jeff's chips? Granted you have a badass car and I love it, but still you are greatly lacking in the tuning field. They only thing you can actually tune your car on by yourself is fuel pressure, and your stock boost guage is a knock guage. It works sure, but not precise nor the best.

I'm not saying run out and buy a AEM, Haltech, or DSMLink, but I think you should at least pick up a logger so you can go over your pulls on your PC and really find out what the car is doing. Doing so could really help you pinpoint the problem. However, you know I'd love to see you pick up a copy of DSMLink and a decent laptop when the funds allow again, I really think you'd love it. DSMLink is very easy to learn, yet has plenty of tuning tools that you wish you had right now.

 

[andymoraitis]

I'm sure I could have a much better tune with Link and I can't disagree with any of your post in the least, nor do I want to. For some reason though, I still feel like this is a mechanical issue and not necessarily tuning related since the 2.0 on stock cams performed perfectly on these chips. Once the cams went in, spool on the 2.0 went to hell and it didn't improve on the 2.3. I'm re-checking the cam timing and I'll let you guys know what I find out.

If you consider that Luke recently installed a set of FP2's straight up and found them to be 2 degrees off, it makes sense that the cams could be the problem.

 

[andymoraitis]

Here's another quickie update and some more information:

I checked the timing marks and they're dead on with cylinder one at TDC. The dowel pins line up properly as well so we can once again rule out that the cams are retarded or a tooth off somewhere. In taking to Keith last night, I'm exhibiting other symptoms which point to the cams needing to be degreed. I've mentioned that the boost is slow to build until it hits 10psi and then it hits pretty hard past that point and spools like a freight train.

I could certainly be experiencing the same symptoms that Luke did where the cams were off even though they were installed straight up. I wish I had a set of stock cams to try in here to see if it would make a sizeable difference.

 

[99gst_racer]

Hey Andy,
Matt (blackGSX2g) might have a pair of stock 2G cams in his garage. I'll ask him to be sure. If you want, I could probably borrow them from him, and bring them over to Dan's garage for you. Make the trip up here one of these days and have Dan install them for you. Just a thought if you are serious about experimenting with stock cams.

 

[andymoraitis]

I may just do that Paul. I know that it would be too radical a move, but I was thinking about advancing the intake cam a full tooth (7 degrees) and seeing if that made a substantial difference. Since the head has never been decked, I'm not worried about piston to valve clearance. I'll let you know what I decide, but a set of adjustable cam gears would likely be my best bet.

 

[99gst_racer]

I'll let you know what I decide, but a set of adjustable cam gears would likely be my best bet.

Well, if you decide that route, definitely PM me or call me before you buy anything.

 

[andymoraitis]

I will. I forgot that you're a Fidanza dealer. Thanks for the heads up kiddo.