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2G Rs/gs awd?

Posted by Dsmhuman, Sep 12, 2019

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  1. Dsmhuman

    Dsmhuman Probationary Member

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    Okay, so hello to everyone I hope you’re all having a good day!
    I’ve been trying to track down answers to a few questions, and found myself in loops on these forums. So I am going to ask.
    This relates to doing a drivetrain conversion, and eventual engine swap on a base model 2g eclipse.
    I understand the base reactions; don’t, to expensive, too much fab, etc. but I’ve also see people say it can and/or has been done.
    So first question, and I’m sorry if it’s redundant, but I would like to be specific for clarity, can the 2g talon tsi awd drivetrain be used to convert a 2g eclipse rs,gs,gst to awd, would it work on a 420a chassis? What would it take to make it work on a 420a chassis? Could it be done in conjunction with the evo8 swap? And then again, would it work on the 420a chassis?
    I want to stress that I understand the money aspect of things. I have a pretty well priced awd complete setup from a 2g talon, and I mean really well priced, that I’m trying to decide if I should pull the trigger on. and had planned to attempt the evo swap and awd conversion some time down the road as I could gather and accumulate the rest of the necessary parts and info, and I could figure out what needed to be fabricated.
    If it can be done, what needs to be done in order to make it happen? Is it possible without transplanting the front clip from a gst?
    Why, why not?
    I would ideally like to have a constructive conversation on this topic.
    Because if not practical, I would still be interested to know how, if possible.
    As a side note, I’m just about to start helping a guy in my city do a tsi teardown and conversion on his gst spyder.
     
  2. Mello

    Mello Proven Member

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  3. Dsmhuman

    Dsmhuman Probationary Member

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    So it has been done. Is legnum an aftermarket manufacturer? This is really helpful, I wish I could speak Russian though LOL. I literally can get the entire awd setup out of a 97 talon for like a couple of hundred bucks right now I’m trying to figure out if I could use it because I don’t want to sleep on it if so.
     
  4. silvreclips

    silvreclips Proven Member

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    It can't be done using the 420a motor. No transmission is available with a transfer case. An Evo swap seems to be the best path forward for a goal like this.
     

    Autocross Build 181  1

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse N/T
    fwd · manual · 2G DSM
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  5. Mello

    Mello Proven Member

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    I haven't done this but I would think you'd need the DSM AWD for most of the suspension & gas tank, possibly the propeller shafts too. And an EVO for the motor, sensors, harness, & ECU.
     
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  6. Kryndon

    Kryndon Proven Member

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    "Legnum" is the VR-4 version (AWD, twin turbo) of the 1997-2003 Mitsubishi Galant wagon. It has almost identical suspension setup as a 2G DSM, as well as the same plastic fuel tank and rear subframe. Legnums are much more common across the EU and in Russia, which is why ZergBush chose that route.

    Frankly I would just say buy the AWD partout because in any case, you will always be able to make more money if you sell each part separately down the road (if you really will get a good deal on it, as you say). Converting a GS/RS/420 chassis to AWD by using 2G stock AWD components is not impossible, it's been done quite a few times, but it does take a lot of fab work, cutting, welding, installing new hanger bolts for the rear subframe etc. ZergBush has a video on that, even if it's in Russian, you can still see the amount of work necessary to do the swap.

    Lastly, if you really, REALLY want to make your 420A car an AWD (for whatever reason, be it sentimental or wanting something more custom), the most efficient route, especially if you're in the US, is to go the EVO 8 route and get parts from that.
     

    Street Build 3K  9

    1997 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    14.769 @ 92.22 · 2G DSM
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  7. Dsmhuman

    Dsmhuman Probationary Member

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    You have all given some very helpful answers, thank you! I think I’m going to go for it then! That’s exciting. my plan would be to do an evo swap with trans. which will I guess I’ll start saving for now. I bought the RS for around 600cad (I’m in vancouver) that had “slid into someone who had rear ended someone at a stoplight on a rainy day.” I Put a new hood on, In process of replacing the rad support, rad, ac, to bring it back close to stock, sewing loose ends and then my girl and I are going to have it as a backup daily until I get everything ready to do the swap/conversion. Luckily there wasnt any frame damage other than that flimsy rad support, virtually no rust, minor body repairs(but my neighbor across the alley does body out of his garage), came with a new installed sound system and bigger speakers. The engine has like 92k miles as is, so I thought with a bit of work, it would make a decent daily grocery getter pleasure car/ eventual project build. I really appreciate all the info and the link to this one in Russia will be extremely helpful and inspiring!
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
  8. pauleyman

    pauleyman DSM Wiseman

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    oklahoma city, Oklahoma
    The main reason not to do this is there is no reason to. An awd car can be had for so cheaply compared to what you're thinking there is no advantage. About the only thing now is evo parts, if you go that route, are probably more available than dsm parts. This is not a bolt in affair. It requires knowledge of fabrication. There are probably 100 things you aren't considering for a swap of this magnitude.
     

    Street Build 3K  1

    1997 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  9. Dsmhuman

    Dsmhuman Probationary Member

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    I’m interested to have a breakdown of the hundred things I’m not thinking of, that’s exactly why I came here. In addition to that, I’m about to help someone swap their gst spyder which will be good hands on experience since he’s using the same talon drivetrain. I may or may not end up doing it, but wouldn’t it be useful if there was a resource that explained in detail how to do it and what needs to be done. In my case I will have less than 2k Canadian into the car including all the awd talon parts, and fixing the front end by the time that’s said and done. The only gsx for sale in my area is several hundred miles north and they still asking 8+k for it, granted it is clean and a little built. Meanwhile I’ve seen recently and evo partout with motor and trans for around 2500$ cad. Seems that the costs would end up being pretty close to equaled out by the time all’s said and done, maybe a couple k to bring in a fab specialist to help. Maybe a difference of a thousand or two, but you end up with something pretty unique and you can say you built it.
     
  10. Mello

    Mello Proven Member

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    I would drive the several hundred miles & buy the GSX, then enjoy my time driving it back instead of spending time figuring out how to do this swap. Probably save a fair amount of expenses that could be flipped back into the GSX for routine maintenance & mods.
     
  11. Dsmhuman

    Dsmhuman Probationary Member

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    You think it would cost more than 6500 to accomplish the build when I’d already have the drivetrain and suspension? I would buy the gsx, but I don’t have 8k to throw at a gsx unless I sell all my other cars LOL, I don’t know if it will still be an option by the time I save that either. I think it would be fun to figure out how to do this swap. I would probably want to figure it out even if I did buy the gsx.
     
  12. Mello

    Mello Proven Member

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    Hard to say. I don't have all the info to calculate. I bet it'll be close depending on your skills. If you were paying someone to do all the work then yes, the swap would be more when including all the labor. How valuable is your time to you?

    I also wouldn't pay the 8K+ asking price. Seems over priced for a 20yr vehicle no matter how good a condition. Have you even contacted the seller to see how flexible they may be? You can always walk away & you'd be back to looking at the swap.
     
  13. Dsmhuman

    Dsmhuman Probationary Member

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    You aren’t wrong. I would probably try to do it myself as much as I could, or with the help of handy friends, and only get custom fab where I couldn’t do it myself, or really wanted to make sure it was structurally safe. I’m no expert. But I’m handy, and generally believe that preparation can be almost as good as experience in a lot of cases. Of course my time is valuable, but I suppose I would also see it as time spent becoming better at a skill, so not a total waste of time. Keep in mind that is 8k Canadian, not usd. But that’s a fair point they may have wiggle room. Maybe I will see about going that route if It’s not sold by the time I get the engine/trans funds saved. For now, I was mainly asking because I want to know if I bought the rear diff and awd parts from this talon, since they are available now for areally good price, and since I already have this rs project that isn’t a dedicated driver, if I COULD use them down the road, so that if so, I can start figuring out the less dry cut parts of what it would take to make it happen.
     
  14. Tyeler18

    Tyeler18 Proven Member

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    If you can get into an evo 8 drivetrain for 2500CAD you better jump all over that. An evo 8 trans alone for a working trans is $1k+, Tcase is $600+, long block without accessories are *on the low low end* $2k+, plus turbo, exhaust, intercooler piping, lines, mounts etc etc. You'll also find that an evo trans/tcase isn't going to be a "bolt in" affair like AWD swapping a 2g GST. The evo tcase is above the subframe whereas a dsm tcase is much smaller and below the subframe. You'll be heavily modifying the stock subframe, or in the smart approach a custom tube subframe. This swap is rarely done because the cost far outweighs just buying a turbo model whether its fwd or AWD. You're going to be in it well over the cost of just the 2g AWD swap parts.

    I've done multiple 2g AWD conversions and own 2 AWD swapped 2gs of my own. It's barely worth it on a GST, the evo conversion is far more expensive. Both my swapped cars and all the cars I've swapped have been spyders. If they were coupes I wouldn't have even bothered swapping them.

    Edit: I'm not trying to sound condescending here, but in the interest of saving you the headache as I have quite a bit of experience with both the evo drivetrain and DSM as well as AWD swaps, I wouldn't go down this venture without planning on taking your current budget and quadrupling it.

    Edit2: If you want to budget an evo 8 swap buy a 3g eclipse 4g64, a kia optima DOHC head and build a DOHC 2.4 since it's the 2.4 evo guys swap in, and the kia head is essentially a poor mans evo 8 head. You're still going to be paying a large chunk for trans and tcase but the engine knocks a huge chunk out.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019

    Drag Race Build 642  1

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · automatic · 1G DSM

    Road Race Build 667  0

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM

    Autocross Build 894  0

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    manual · 2G DSM

    Road Race Build 1K  0

    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4
    manual · Galant VR-4
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    Dsmhuman likes this.
  15. Dsmhuman

    Dsmhuman Probationary Member

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    It was 2500-3 for the engine/trans if I’m not mistaken. I’m not at that stage yet, will have to lay and pray I can find a similar deal at a later date. Although there’s a not so used exhaust with the talon awd setup that could probably be adapted to start things off. Wasn’t really planning to do the conversion, but since the option came up to pickup the drivetrain for cheap I figured I would start seeing what I am looking at to do it and if it’s even possible. If I have the diff and rear end, driveshaft, tcase, axles, hubs and I’m mainly looking at the front end, and fab work; had two people try to give me dsm 4g63 wiring harness in my area. I can always just keep my eyes out for a gst if that pops up before the evo stuff does and go that route. Keep the rs as a daily or sell it and use the money to convert or tune the gst. But I like the idea of doing this to an rs/gs with an evo 4g, and want a project that I could become more proficient on that would be challenging, but not impossible. If anybody wanted to note some of the fab that needed to be done for the gst awd conversion, that might be helpful as well. I know you need to make a tunnel for the driveshaft, relocate trans mount bracket?, use bigger motor mounts, what would be the process to mate a talon rear end or driveshaft/ tcase to an evo trans/tcase? Modify the rear? The route to go there, then would be to adapt the rear end to the over-sub-frame driveshaft of the evo? Why would you avoid doing it to a coupe?
     
  16. Dsmhuman

    Dsmhuman Probationary Member

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    Also, would there be any hope of the evo trans or tcase working with the talon tcase/driveshaft?
     
  17. Dsmhuman

    Dsmhuman Probationary Member

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    I haven’t really stated a current budget. But I appreciate any and all feedback. What do you think it would cost? Quadruple sounds farfetched, but you are likely more of an expert than me. If I have the entire talon awd setup including tcase, axles, diff, suspension, exhaust, and the rs eclipse already and have 6k to spend on engine trans, fabrication to adapt it and make it work before I even match the price of the nearest gsx I could buy. You’re telling me it will cost 24,000$? Or that 6k wouldn’t be anywhere close to enough to make it happen? I understand the point about practicality. Why do it, when you could go get the same thing for potentially less. I’m just trying to figure it all out. I could always sell the 420a parts to recoup some expense on the backside haha.
     
  18. Dsmhuman

    Dsmhuman Probationary Member

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    Is your 4g64 build an alternate to the evo 8 engine on a awd converted rs chassis? That’s pretty intriguing then and something I may look into!
     
  19. Tyeler18

    Tyeler18 Proven Member

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    Casa Grande, Arizona
    Short and simple- I don’t think you’re going to touch an evo drivetrain alone for less than $4.5-5k. That’s just engine, trans, tcase. The rear is easy, it’s no different than an awd swap on turbo model as I said before. Expect $1k+ for a custom subframe to run the evo tcase as that’s the only option you have to an AWD evo 8 swap. Turbo on the low end is going to be $500 for a complete evo 8 stock setup. Intercooler, a Dsm down pipe is going to be no benefit to you, the evo exhaust isn’t close to make modding a Dsm down pipe worth while, so exhaust. Dsm engine harness isn’t going to be adapted easily, expect $250-400 for an evo harness and another $200 for an evo ecu. Assuming you can get sensors with your engine you’ll still need either a speed density setup or a MAF, intake pipe, front axles will need some mix and matching to work. There’s no cheap way to do this, if you actually had a 6k budget you’d be buying a clean GSX already, not piecing together an awd car. I think you’re missing the big picture of what all this entails, the time and fab work involved is far greater than just the monetary investment.

    If you have to ask questions like this, you’re not ready for a swap of this magnitude. If this was as cheap and easy as you’re trying to make it seem more people would be doing it. The problem is it’s neither cheap nor a straight forward swap. Keep your idea of dailying the n/t and saving for a turbo model. Again, I’m not trying to sound condescending but your game plan doesn’t match with your experience or budget and you’ll be far ahead of the game with a turbo model to build.

    If that’s not enough of a response to sway you away from trying this swap then good luck on your venture. I can’t add anything more to this
     

    Drag Race Build 642  1

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · automatic · 1G DSM

    Road Race Build 667  0

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM

    Autocross Build 894  0

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    manual · 2G DSM

    Road Race Build 1K  0

    1991 Mitsubishi Galant VR-4
    manual · Galant VR-4
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  20. pauleyman

    pauleyman DSM Wiseman

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    oklahoma city, Oklahoma
    This is the best response I've seen. I've been at this DSM game since 1992. I wouldn't attempt this swap myself and I think I'm qualified to do so. It is simply too much work and an AWD car is already available. You simply buy it. If you don't have the funds then you're in the wrong hobby. Blunt as that may seem it's true. I daily drove beaters until I was older and made more coin. Now I own a nice Tsi AWD and I am the 2nd owner at 52k miles (way more now) but the point is it wasn't cheap but worth it.
    Many have already stated bunches of the 100 points I had estimated, tons and custom work and adapting to make stuff work etc.
    I'm in agreement. The questions you ask reveal you are not ready for this.
     

    Street Build 3K  1

    1997 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  21. Dsmhuman

    Dsmhuman Probationary Member

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    This isn’t my only hobby, I didn’t start this topic to have people drone on about how costly the fabrication would be I came to find out what it would be. I’m not trying to make it out to be cheap or easy. I’m saying I can get a tsi awd setup for cheap, and it wouldn’t be a problem for me to save and work on getting the rest. And I never presumed to be jumping in to it. I’m literally here right now because I want to find out as much about it and take my time and ask questions, before I start doin any of it, or even think about doing it. and if it’s even possible, which it seems to be. Just wanted to see if it would be worthwhile to pick up the subframe etc. for cheap, and see what happens from there. I just want to find out what needs to be done to make it happen. Isn’t an issue long term, i could easily enough drop 10k into the car over the next 2-3 years if that needed to happen, and so what if that’s more than the cost of a gsx? The point of the project/conversation is to learn and be challenged, it’s not about a budget build. I work freelance but it pays well enough. Even if it cost 5k for the engine components, which I’m not doubting, I merely said that I saw one last month parted out for less which is true(but the number I quoted was engine and trans, no driveshaft, no tcase) and not totally uncomfortable with that, I think if I did complete this build, I would probably keep building it anyways. Might save extra to do a bottom end rebuild before I even put it in. I’m interested in knowing what needs to be done, knowing cost is fine, but assume money was no object even if it is. You mentioned front axles? That’s the evo axle? Would the tsi front axles not work? They are with the awd setup already. To address your points on the efficacy of my skills, that’s fine and fair. But that’s why it would be a project to learn on. I’m eager to learn beyond stuff that “bolts in” And I would have help along the way aswell from more experienced family and friends, my uncle is really good with fabrication, (he’s a pyrotech, between him and my dad, is pretty good mechanical skill) he’s just sort of a grump so I would need to bribe him to help me. I’m not asking because I want to jump in and start the project tomorrow. I think I noted that as of right now, I’m just restoring it to stock, picking up talon awd components for cheap and doing research. Im also not asking because I want to or expect to see it finished in a year or two. I’m asking because I would like to have a clear understanding of what it would take to accomplish it, particularly in terms of fab work. I might lack the skills now, but people can learn and be trained to do things in little time with a bit of dedication.
    Your words of warning are well noted.
    I get what you’re saying.
    Sounds like the both of you could do what I’m asking about, whether or not you think you could, but you would choose to do something else, that’s fair enough.
    But I’m asking how to do it, not if it’s a good idea. If I was I wouldn’t have posted at all because I already knew I was going to hear that answer.
    The best way I could explain it is this; i would like to have as close an approximation as possible to the scope of parts and work needed, so that based on that I can decide whether or not to pursue the idea, for myself.
    I have all the time in the world to plan, gather and assemble, or not.
    Good info to know about the tcase and driveshaft!
    You are saying it’s the exact same process to put in the drivetrain, suspension, diff, fuel tank, on a rs/gs as a gst? If so then I will have a solid understanding of that part of the build within a couple of weeks since I’m helping someone do it. So that would be great because it would mean I could do it to mine!
    On a side note, I could cash out a bit of stuff and buy a gsx now, that’s to say, I do have the money, but I have less than ten years to beat you guys down south to getting a gtr before you can import and the prices skyrocket so I’m in more of a rush to do that. Somebody is selling a rb25det swapped r32 r for like 25k, and rn I’m seeing more of them imported often. Telling someone not having 6k to spend on upgrading means they can’t afford a hobby comes off as pretty elitist, where there is a will there is a way, always. last thing I’ll say, I’m not arguing with you about market rate for parts, but deals do come along sometimes. I know cars aren’t cheap, I’m not presuming this would be cheap.
    I saw a 4g63t swapped 420a spyder just yesterday, he said it was a pain in the ass, and I would bet it was expensive. but so what? He did it. I don’t need to be “ready for it” now. I can get ready for it.
     
  22. Dsmhuman

    Dsmhuman Probationary Member

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    Hell I know for a fact I could put a driver mount 4g63 into it with enough work, and someone’s selling one for 1700 ten minutes from my house. No lie. I didn’t mean to come off as rude asking for elaboration on the 100 points, each one that’s brought up, is the knowledge I am currently seeking. That’s what I want to find out. I know this would be an insanely ambitious build, I’m not trying to jump the gun at all, and buying a gst to convert is always an option as well. But this convo isn’t about swaying me one way or the other. I want to know why it can’t be done, ie. The transfer case will require custom fab, etc. not just that it isn’t a cost effective route and if it can be done, I just want to know how. Details, that’s what I’m after. And thanks for all of the information either way, it’s all very helpful.
     
  23. pauleyman

    pauleyman DSM Wiseman

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    What you just posted is valid but you are mixing and matching certain things. For instance there is no 420A spyder. The spyder came with a mitsubishi engine so A 4G63 swap is considerably easier than what you might attempt. You have also referenced a tsI drive train vs and evo drive train. These are 2 completely different animals. They are mirror opposites. In a nut shell swapping in a motor in your 420a wouldn't be that much different than swapping in a motor into any car that didn't originally come with that motor. That is to say you will need to fabricate mounts and then figure out How to make it all work. The only good thing if you used a Talon drive train is this chassis did come equipped with it at some point so there are parts that will work. If you choose the evolution that isnt true. I am guessing this is a minimum 10k project. I assumed budget because of your references at getting some parts cheap which is driving the project. If you've already pulled motors. Transmissions. Installed clutches. Wiring harnesses etc then by all means go for it. If you havent done this then I think you are grossly underestimating what is involved. Sure you would learn but I am betting it wont be as much fun as you think. That is part of the goal I'm assuming? To have fun? If it becomes tedious you lose the joy of the project.
     

    Street Build 3K  1

    1997 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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  24. Mello

    Mello Proven Member

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    Get this, fix & maintenance, & sell your 420A RS. Don't why to started with asking about swaps.
     
  25. Dsmhuman

    Dsmhuman Probationary Member

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    Joined Sep 12, 2019
    Vancouver, Washington
    Interesting, I thought the guy had said it was a 420. Was it a passenger mounted 4g64? He did say that it was reverse mounted when he swapped it and had to cut firewall etc. But I could be mixed up on the details, I imagine many aspects might be more straightforward than an EVOswap with d\t conversion while some would be more complex. I mean “fun” working on cars is generally frustration and cursing, but I do find that fun, I appreciate that point though. I know what you are concerned with is discouragement because of repeated and constant failures; Losing the joy would completely suck. I guess knowing what I’d be in for, I would hope, would make that as unlikely as possible and give me my best chance to be prepared to do it all, at least if I know it will cost 10k plus about and I choose to anyways I know what I am in for.I’ve been working on it as a budget because as it is, I bought it for pretty cheap and if I can get it to stock cheaper, why not right? No offence to the 420a squad, which I am part of technically, but I don’t have a lot of interest in a 420a build, even though they are just fine! Was just going to be a weekend cruiser for gf. But since the opportunity to get this talon part out (which btw is already taken out mostly) came up, I thought I would do research and start seeing what the options were, because it’s something I had thought of doing down the road or gradually, but thought it was super unviable because of needing to part out multiple cars. I don’t need to do anything to the car until that sweet deal comes along on evo parts, it would still be a fine running car in the meantime, but it’s more just a matter of what’s available and practical once the research is as close to done as can be, and a decision was ready to be made and/or presented itself. that could be a gst, or it could be evo, it would take more work But it would be a lot cooler or... more unique wouldn’t it? The only thing I meant to demonstrate in terms of a budget is that while it might still cost a bit more, the difference in price if you got a bit lucky and put in some hard work between converting a gs, or getting a gsx might not be THAT much. I’m trying my best to not underestimate any aspect of it. I’m more concerned with having a comprehensive understanding. I’ve installed a clutch and trans on a truck going to be doing everything on this other guys project, so I suppose either I will learn or not haha. The wiring harness is something that will be new and complicated and I know will be a pain for me since all the other cars I’ve owned have been older and not had very complex electrical systems. I guess I will start looking into them more. The goal is to make a badass car out of a mediocre car, if possible. I want to make the eclipse what it was meant to be haha. I’m a little confused what you mean about the talon vs, evo drivetrain. Different animals? Mirror opposites? That was one of the biggest questions I wanted to answer honestly, using the talon drivetrain and axles, how would they connect to the evo trans and motor, would they at all, which drive shaft and tcase would need to be used? When you say mirrored, you mean the talon is drivers engine bay, so it wouldn’t work. With the passenger bay evo? Which is why the evo driveshaft with tcase would need to be adapted to the talon rear? I honestly kind of figured that would be one of the pains of the project, whichever method was used to marry the systems. Seems like the engine swap would be somewhat hard, but not really really hard, just expensive, and it’s been done and has a blueprint of how to do it. seems like the awd could be a pain to install in an RS chassis, but here people say it’s virtually the same as doing in a gst, so still intermediate level and by no means easy, time consuming. But doable. I mean if it’s going to cost an extra 2k because only an adapted evo driveshaft will work, so I can’t use the talon shaft or the transfer case I’m already going to have, that’s okay, id just rather know that now as opposed to six months into the build. Because that would be a sad realization.10k for the build seems realistic to me as well. I wouldn’t want to cut corners if I did it. I also wondered if I would need to do any modification/reinforcement to the body chassis or frame with a build like this.
     

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