Rod Knock- Rebuild or buy new engine?

[fourgsixthree33]

I recently got rod knock not too long ago. Thought at first I bent valves from the timing jumping but it turned out that the bottom end needs work. So, here I am with a new rebuilt/reman head with a 3 angle valve job, new parts, the whole deal. Bought the head before knowing I had problems in the bottom end. Should have dropped the pan from the beginning.

So, I am planning on getting a short block locally for $150. Needs new bearings due to the previous owner taking out the rod caps. It's a complete short block from a 97 DSM. I am stuck with my 7 bolt head so I need a 7 bolt block. If I didn't have this head, I would find a 6 bolt long block. But that's not logical since I already purchased this head.

The other thing I could do is pull this engine and rebuild it. But with down time, money in the long run, etc. I think it would be better just to get a short block. Then over the course of the next year, build this one up.

What would you guys do?

 

[turbo_rookie]

I would build my own. At least you would have the peace of mind that it was done right (given that YOU do it right). Another thing is if you buy the other block and start building it you may run into gouged cylinders and may run in to worse problems than you already have. At least with your current block you KNOW whats wrong with it. I'm assuming that you are positive on why it knocks. That's what i would do. But I love working on cars so maybe I'm just crazy like that.

 

[phunny]

I would build my own. At least you would have the peace of mind that it was done right (given that YOU do it right). Another thing is if you buy the other block and start building it you may run into gouged cylinders and may run in to worse problems than you already have. At least with your current block you KNOW whats wrong with it. I'm assuming that you are positive on why it knocks. That's what i would do. But I love working on cars so maybe I'm just crazy like that.

You're not crazy at all, it's exactly what the OP should do.

 

[g4ebguy90]

I have gotten complete engines for $200. I just rip the head off, swap blocks and there she goes. Even though right now she has a sensor problem. she goes once in a while .

To top it all off, the block was just rebuilt .

Rebuilding, just bearings alone, is gonna be 50. I just don't bother and buy a complete untouched engine, and swap it over.

Cause a rebuild is gonna cost $1500 for a *complete OEM*.

So yeh I take my chances. But thats me.

I would NOT buy a block were the owner took out the caps, I would be to worried the mixed them up.

 

[obsidian]

I would NOT buy a block were the owner took out the caps, I would be to worried the mixed them up.

This is truth. Unless they were marked where they went then no way.

Or you could just buy new pistons but it's your call. Do what was previously stated or just get another entire engine and keep the spare parts.

 

[Bud92gsx]

Your just having the worst luck with your talon aren't you AJ..

 

[g4ebguy90]

Hes got a good head. So now he just needs a good block. He will find one easy for sure.

Unless you got about 1k to spend towards a engine, I would not rebuild the current one. I mean your talking, the crank is done for probaly, the rods need recondtioned. By the time you get the crank recondtioned and rods, you could have bought a whole engine for same price.

 

[talonDSMerr]

Reduilding it yourself gives you peace of mind AND is much more rewarding. But everybody has good arguments, rebuilds are not cheap or a good way to get back running quickly.

 

[ed1380]

$1500 for a rebuild? you're crazy

I'm in the middle of a bottom end rebuild too.

polished crank and rods- $180
bearings-$80.
headgasket-$35

I'm lucky because the engine was recently rebuild by previous owner so rings looked new and other gaskets are fine. but misc gaskets and seals would be $100 tops. The felpro composite has been ran to 30psi without problems, and it was $32 at autozone.

Alternatively it's $260 for a crank kit (reman crank and bearings), and $25 per remanufactured rod. A wiseco piston ring set is $32 shipped on ebay. and before you rag on reman cranks, people have made 700hp on cut cranks.

full bottom end rebuild for under $500, and peace of mind knowing everything is in good condition.

 

[obsidian]

Sucks you aren't closer to me. I'm selling a 6g built engine for the simple fact that I don't need it. . DSM graveyard may be able to get you some pistons. I have a set of four turbo pistons.

 

[TSIMonsteR]

I'd grab a good shortblock and make the swap. It'll be cheaper and faster and then you can build the old block as you have time and money.

 

[g4ebguy90]

$1500 for a rebuild? you're crazy

I'm in the middle of a bottom end rebuild too.

polished crank and rods- $180
bearings-$80.
headgasket-$35

I'm lucky because the engine was recently rebuild by previous owner so rings looked new and other gaskets are fine. but misc gaskets and seals would be $100 tops. The felpro composite has been ran to 30psi without problems, and it was $32 at autozone.

Alternatively it's $260 for a crank kit (reman crank and bearings), and $25 per remanufactured rod. A wiseco piston ring set is $32 shipped on ebay. and before you rag on reman cranks, people have made 700hp on cut cranks.

full bottom end rebuild for under $500, and peace of mind knowing everything is in good condition.

Thats just basic short block stuff. I replaced my oil pump, and timing stuff. So the price was up after all that.

 

[Thomas91169]

$1500 for a rebuild? you're crazy

I'm in the middle of a bottom end rebuild too.

polished crank and rods- $180
bearings-$80.
headgasket-$35

I'm lucky because the engine was recently rebuild by previous owner so rings looked new and other gaskets are fine. but misc gaskets and seals would be $100 tops. The felpro composite has been ran to 30psi without problems, and it was $32 at autozone.

Alternatively it's $260 for a crank kit (reman crank and bearings), and $25 per remanufactured rod. A wiseco piston ring set is $32 shipped on ebay. and before you rag on reman cranks, people have made 700hp on cut cranks.

full bottom end rebuild for under $500, and peace of mind knowing everything is in good condition.

I think you're a little light on your $$$.

If you had to do a full realistic rebuild, IE taking the block down to a machine shop and having it at least hottanked (to ensure no shavings were left in the engine), and had them at least just hone the walls and clean up everything thats gonna run at least $200 iirc. If theres shavings in the head youll need to have that torn apart and cleaned/rebuilt as well. Oil pump and stuff like that need to be cleaned as well.

Then theres gaskets. I think ExtremePSI sells the whole gasket kit for $260 or something, but that includes things like intake/exhaust manifold gaskets, turbo gaskets, etc.

I know you just posted to my last thread; after running numbers I decided its easiest to spend $1k on a ready to run motor (JDM, used, etc) and then take the one that needs rebuilding and build it up slowly. Theres no way im going to reinstall a new crank and bearings with what came out of my oil pan and do 3 oil changes in the next 100mi of driving and just hope the filter got it all.

 

[g4ebguy90]

PF ITM RY6313 ITM 1G 7 Bolt Piston Set - STD
1 $135.00 $135.00
PF 260-1705 Speed Pro Full Gasket Set - 92-94 4G63 - 1G 7 Bolt
1 $149.99 $149.99
GYRECONED7B Reconditioned 7 Bolt Rod Set - w/ARP's
[Core Charge:Will send Core] 1 $120.00 $120.00
CO1 Check Crankshaft for damage or polish - Bill after Insp.
1 $0.00 $0.00
CO2 1G Head Freeze Plug
1 $1.00 $1.00
PF FEL ES71177 Fel Pro 7 Bolt Head Bolts
1 $29.99 $29.99
NMF665541 New OEM Freeze Plug Kit - 90-94 35mm
1 $12.99 $12.99
NMD153368 New OEM Main Bolt Kit - 7 Bolt
1 $27.99 $27.99
NMD041021 New OEM Castle Plug O-Ring
1 $2.25 $2.25
NTBK7wos New OEM Timing Belt Kit w/o Shafts - 7 Bolt 4g63
1 $219.99 $219.99
DG0102 New Balance Shaft Eliminator Kit - 90-99
1 $39.99 $39.99
GMVitonSeals New Graveyard Motorsport Viton Valve Stem Seals - 90-99
1 $12.99 $12.99
NMD087060 New OEM Fuel Injector Insulator
4 $2.50 $10.00
NMD302074 New OEM Flywheel Bolt Kit - 7 Bolt
1 $23.99 $23.99
NMD020260 New OEM Engine to Transmission Dowl
2 $3.49 $6.98
NMS471111x2 New OEM Cylinder Head Pegs - 4G63
1 $8.99 $8.99
MV AT20 ACT Clutch Alignment Tool - 4G63
1 $4.29 $4.29

Sub Total: $806.43
Tax: $0.00
Shipping: $25.04
Grand Total: $831.47

Code Item Qty Price Total
NMD327450 New OEM Oil Pump - 7 Bolt
1 $219.99 $219.99
NMD030764 New OEM Water Pipe to Water Pump O-Ring - 90-99
1 $3.45 $3.45
OR54-1460 Reconditioned Cardone Water Pump - 95-99
1 $69.99 $69.99
NMD372348 Aluminum Half Moon Gasket - 90-99
1 $5.00 $5.00
PF0565137 New ITM 3G Lifters - Set of 16
1 $89.99 $89.99

Sub Total: $388.42
Tax: $0.00
Shipping: $0.00
Grand Total: $388.42

Code Item Qty Price Total
co crankshaft grinding- polish
1 $145.00 $145.00

Sub Total: $145.00
Tax: $0.00
Shipping: $0.00
Grand Total: $145.00



Machine work for me was free. Did it myself.
Block was bored and honed. Baked and media blasted.
Head had valve seats grinded and valves grinded.

 

[fourgsixthree33]

A couple weeks ago, I bought Evo 8 rods and pistons for $100 shipped to my front door. So, I have decided to rebuild. Bearings are cheap. $32 for the main bearings and $20 for the rod bearings on Extreme PSI.

The rings on the pistons I got look great. They only have 58K on them when the engine was pulled. So I am going to skip out on getting new rings. The seller (very nice guy and trustworthy) said he would use the current rings as well.

I am going to get my crank looked at and see what they say. I doubt there is anything wrong with it but I will explore my options.

So if I already spent $100 on these evo 8 pistons and rods and spend roughly $65 tops for these bearings and for shipping costs, get the crank looked at, I don't think I will be spending anything over $500. Depending on the crank situation, I may not even see over $300. I am honing the cylinder walls myself.

Granite I already bought a brand new head, all gaskets, all timing belt components, and a crap load of other stuff. So that helps out a bit.

Here are some pics of the Evo 8 pistons and rods. I also have a project log here- Eat Sleep DSM - 1G: Frequent Flyer- 93 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

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[g4ebguy90]

I would replace the rings for peace of mind honestly. But that's just me.

Now one thing I'm not sure about. Do EVO pistons have to be Hung a certain way to go into a DSM engine?

 

[fourgsixthree33]

I will dig up the write up. Yes and no. The engines are backawards, but still face towards the timing belt side of each engine.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/311850-any-2gs-evo-pistons.html
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-thread-graveyard/244184-can-anyone-help-me.html

 

[g4ebguy90]

That is true but the exhaust still faces the same way. Same for the intake. I would think turning the engine, would make the exhaust valve reliefs go to were the intake is. and vice versa. I also know that if for any reason you have to press the pistons off, most of the time they are ruined from what I hear.

 

[fourgsixthree33]

From what i read and was told, you install the Evo 8 pistons the same way you install DSM rods nad pistons. Pressing them off may make them unusable, I dont know. I do know that I don't need them pressed off .

 

[g4ebguy90]

INT
Im just picturing in my head the piston arrow being this way --------------->
EXS


EXS


If it gets turned a 180 its going this way <------------
INT

So that means the valve reliefs in the pistons are now 180 across from each other.

All im saying. But I have never installed EVO pistons.

 

[fourgsixthree33]

As long as the dots point toward the timing belt side of the engine, you are fine. Think about it, engine rotation is the same in both blocks with respect to the timing belt side of the engine. In the Evo, the dots point to the passenger side because that's the timing belt side. In your DSM they will point to the driver's side, which is still the timing belt side.


The wrist pin is offset because it reduces strain on the rods and reduces out-of-round wear to cylinder walls. As the piston passes TDC, pressure reaches maximum. At that point, the con rod is under the most stress and the piston is subject to the most side loading. The rod is more close to perpendicular when it just passes TDC when the wrist pin is offset. Meaning the piston reaches TDC position at a different moment than when the rod reaches its conventional TDC position, which lessens stresses to the pin. Obviously, the rod is the strongest when pressure acts in a straight line across its long axis. If the pin were not offset, the rod would be "leaning" more as the pressure hit the maximum and would be subjected to more shearing force.

There is a little more to it than that, but this is how I look at it.

This is from one of the threads I linked above. This was some what new when this thread was going on, but now tons of people have done this. I think there is a video on thedsmgraveyard.com too.

 

[Guzman08]

From what i read and was told, you install the Evo 8 pistons the same way you install DSM rods nad pistons. Pressing them off may make them unusable, I dont know. I do know that I don't need them pressed off .

so u didnt spin a bearing?? let me know if you need a stock crank from a 7 bolt

 

[fourgsixthree33]

I won't know for sure what happened until I take the engine apart once I pull it. But either way, I am not using any of the old internals with the exception of a crank (if I need one).

 

[josh1095]

i had an entire longblock rebuilt w oil pump, arp studs everywhere, cometic hg, manley rods and pistons for 2200. should be in the car by next week(praying like all hell!!) i would have it rebuilt ### then you KNOW the engine. and it will last a very long time if its done right. just like a brand new one. buying a used is hit or miss.
my longblock had 200k on it, the machinist was able to re use crank and block was only .020 over.

 

[awddarrell]

Your just having the worst luck with your talon aren't you AJ..

seems like he is not the only one, I had terrible luck with my talon and now my eclipse is going the same way.