Road Racing - FMIC

[asian312]

Over the summer my 2G has taken on quite a transformation primarily due to loosing the motor last Nov. Part of the project buildup was a 2.4L motor and stepping up the turbo to make the car competitive for NASA TT and RTA. Of course this meant it was time for a FMIC.

I'm not looking for huge outlandish numbers, and settled on a Punishment Racing setup. Since then, I've had nothing but trouble with overheating issues. I've already gone to great lengths to resolve this including larger radiator, ducting, splitter, and hood (see link for pics). I'm pretty much at a loss as I can only get 1-2 hot laps before temps get out of control. A cool down lap will bring things back in check, but that wont help for those test and tune days or when I'm instructing.

I've yet to try a heat shield around the FP exhaust manifold or remove the black portion of the 2GB bumper, but I wanted to get some opinions and see if anyone has successfully run a FMIC on their 2GB. I know Drew has done extensive work on his and Collier has issues when he went this route on the 1G (with V-mount). On a prior eclipse I ran an Apexi core and had no such issues, but then again it was never subjected to the rigors of RR. Could the core be the issue?

And if SMIC is the route to take, anyone have any suggestions since Dejon no longer makes theirs.

Kevin Tan's Photos - Skye | Facebook

 

[bluegs03]

hood vents, make it so that your fans come on full speed all the time, remove parts of the bumper, final most involved thing you can do is make an air duct that funnels air into the radiator.

 

[asian312]

Check, done, and all done. DSMLink has the fans on full active duty. Just for reference, cruising temps are 186-193.

 

[Scott McIntyre]

Wow, I like your splitter & duct work. Looks professional.

I was suffering similar problems until I supplemented my duct work by *completely* sealing the space between the FMIC and rad. I did this via aluminum duct tape, foam weather strips, and foam pipe insulation. You can see pics here: FMIC Install pictures by scmcint - Photobucket

The problem you might be having is that as air is pushed through your FMIC, it may be exiting out the bottom scoop (between the FMIC & rad). Air will travel the path of least resistant. As an experiment, you could try sealing that up ans see if your temps improve.

Other things I've done that you hadn't listed is a 170º t-stat, 100% water w/ water-wetter, and an air-to-oil cooler. But in all honesty, I believe that *completely* sealing the gap between the FMIC & rad is what solved my problems.

 

[pboglio]

Hmm, I've tried water wetter, aluminum radiator, custom ducting "over" the FMIC thru a cutout in the black portion of the front bumper, colder thermostat, 1 spal fan at 100% duty cycle, no A/C condensor core, even a lower bumper "chin" deflector for creating a lower pressure area right under the radiator core, stock heatshield rigged over the FP exhaust manifold. They all work. In fact one time my coolant temps would rocket downwards below the opening temp of the thermostat, that's how effective the cooling was. Not a roadracer myself, but I've found what works and what doesn't with a huge FMIC on the street.

 

[asian312]

Wow, I like your splitter & duct work. Looks professional.

I was suffering similar problems until I supplemented my duct work by *completely* sealing the space between the FMIC and rad. I did this via aluminum duct tape, foam weather strips, and foam pipe insulation. You can see pics here: FMIC Install pictures by scmcint - Photobucket

The problem you might be having is that as air is pushed through your FMIC, it may be exiting out the bottom scoop (between the FMIC & rad). Air will travel the path of least resistant. As an experiment, you could try sealing that up ans see if your temps improve.

Other things I've done that you hadn't listed is a 170º t-stat, 100% water w/ water-wetter, and an air-to-oil cooler. But in all honesty, I believe that *completely* sealing the gap between the FMIC & rad is what solved my problems.

Interesting thought there Scott. I like it and will certainly give that a whirl. The t-stat is something I need to check on, as it's an auto-parts piece. Fluid mix is 100% water w/ water wetter. air-to-oil cooler is in the works.

pboglio, for street use it's fine. I can sit at a red light with the AC for hours or cruise without any issues. It's only when I'm going WOT for 2+min am I having issues.

 

[KFT0001]

Ducting the air from the IC to the radiator took care of my overheating problem during road racing. I was pretty sure the air coming out of the IC was getting sucked under the car before making it through the radiator. Since then my temps have stayed pretty solid. I have my logs at home, but I don't think it's gone past 210 degrees since.

 

[xloki77x]

You could also try plugging up those foglight holes. It looks like you are planning on putting the ps cooler and oil coolers in those spots behind the foglight holes, but if you leave those exposed, you are allowing more air to travel around your intercooler/radiator and not through it. If you had a single opening on the front of your car, all the air would then be forced through:
1.) the intercooler
2.) over the top of your car
3.) or under the car (because of your splitter, very nice btw)

Here is a pic of what I am talking about. (sorry about the crappy quality, I had to scan it from a book):

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If you could somehow plumb the ps cooler and oil cooler from this single opening, similar to the brake ducts in the pic, it would allow you to continue forcing the air through just that one opening. This modification not only improves the cooling efficiency of your car, but also dramatically improves downforce and is a great two for one if you can get it right on your particular vehicle.

Your car looks great and I am jealous of your meullerized... bits. Good luck and I hope this helps.
Pete

 

[pboglio]

Sure, street use is always going to be fine since the BTU's being dissipated thru the cooling system depends on the horsepower rating of your motor among other things. I do see my temps climb up about 3*F during WOT pulls, but the temp pull down is rapid. This means I can go WOT, then brake, then go WOT without going into a thermal runaway cycle. I'd have to visit a roadcourse to really prove to what extent my cooling system is capable, but so far on the street with back to back WOT runs I can pull my temps down pretty quickly as evidenced on the logger.

Well, I still have the option of running a 2nd cooling fan at 100% duty cycle but the amp draw per fan is somewhere around 10-15 amps each, and I probably wouldn't do it unless it where on a roadcourse.

Your unshielded FP exhaust manifold has got to be making your underhood temps brutal, that can't help your radiator efficiency.

 

[Strm Trpr]

I was at Thunderhill Raceway Home out here in Willows, California, and it was 100* outside.
Track temps were whicked.

I was fighting coolant issues too, but never pushed any coolant.
I saw as high as 230* on my gauge and I eased up a little and it would go down.

I have my car up on Jackstands right now awaiting an Evo III Oil Filter Housing, Setrab Air to Oil Cooler, Aftermarket PS Fluid Cooler, Seibon Evo Vented Carbon Fiber Hood and Redesigned Ducting.
The passenger side nostril is for my CAI.
The driver's side nostril will be for my Air to Oil Cooler.
Eventually the Fog Lights will be for brake ducts.
I need to fab up a splitter that will help duct air thru the FMIC for sure, so that will eventually happen as well.

I will document everything I do in my own thread, but it all definitely needs to be addressed....

Next track day is at Thunderhill on November 7th.
$99 for five 20-25min sessions. Northern California Racing Club - Schedule of Events

 

[Rob10_99]

A good seal sounds like a good idea. How about an oil cooler with a fan on it as well?

Does your rulebook permit a flatbottom? Maby think about doing that for the front half of the car.

 

[KFT0001]

I just checked my logs, last time out at Infineon my max coolant temp for first 3 sessions was 197*. Last session got up to 206* with me running into some fuel starvation on turns.

 

[asian312]

Thanks for the replys all. All great ideas. I'll get to testing as soon as the weather clears. The two side ducts are actually going to be modified for air-water oil cooler and trans cooler at some points. I picked up two Setrab coolers and have an EVOIII oil housing waiting to go on.

xloki77x, I wish I could build a tunnel like that as that type of structure would dramatically increase the pressure zone in front of the IC/rad, but our eclipses have stubby little noses. Underbelly pans are legal in NASA, but not for RTA in SM. But the points cost with garage level engineering may not validate the the points accumulated for the extra mods.

Strm Trpr, one day I'm gonna make a pilgrimage out to Cali to hit up all those historic tracks. Does Seca have open track days, or is it pretty exclusive for racing events? As for the brake ducts, are you having issues with heat? Ever since I switched to the EVO8 brembos I've yet to have any issues with the brakes even in the Texas heat. Been contemplating changing rotors to DBAs, but the blanks I got from RRE have stood a years worth of punishment with Carbotech XP-12s binding down on them.

 

[Strm Trpr]

Strm Trpr, one day I'm gonna make a pilgrimage out to Cali to hit up all those historic tracks. Does Seca have open track days, or is it pretty exclusive for racing events? As for the brake ducts, are you having issues with heat? Ever since I switched to the EVO8 brembos I've yet to have any issues with the brakes even in the Texas heat. Been contemplating changing rotors to DBAs, but the blanks I got from RRE have stood a years worth of punishment with Carbotech XP-12s binding down on them.

Northern California Racing Club - Schedule of Events

You can clearly see here that Laguna Seca offers Open Track Days.
I can't make it this year due to my wedding anniversary , but I will hit up Thunderhill on the 6th of November and Infineon/Sears Point on the 7th of December.

Next season I will try and hit every NCRC event possible.
They are cheaper than NASA, Hooked on Driving, Trackmasters by far.
NCRC provides five 20-25min sessions vs NASA's four 20min sessions.
NCRC's events aren't as crowded which is a bonus, and they don't pull you into a classroom after each sessions for ass chewings...

Whenever you do make it out here, please look me up.
We would definitely need to go and shred these course together.

I have HPDE friends that have every single West Coast HPDE track decal on the back windows of their SRT-4's.
I'm talking all the way from Southern California all the way up to the Canadian Border of Washington.
And they drive their SRT-4's there and back .
Try doing that in a DSM....

 

[Ludachris]

Hood vent(s) made the biggest difference for me, but also try ducting to the radiator/fmic, water wetter, cooler thermostat and you should be okay for the most part. But that new DEI turbo blanket should be on your to-do list as a road racer - it will probably have a bigger effect than a manifold heat shield. If that still doesn't work then look into a thicker radiator (like I did) and some under hood ducting to allow the air to escape through the hood (which I'm planning on doing). And if that still doesn't work, look into changing the layout of the radiator/fmic. Changing to E85 will help things run slightly cooler too - from what I've been told

And if you do nothing else - HOOD VENTS! At least one big one, preferably multiple. Turbo cars absolutely need them for track use.

 

[Strm Trpr]

A new aftermarket front bumper that will forcefully funnel copious amounts of air thru the FMIC will be picked up on Monday.
A full width by 18" deep splitter will add even more air flow control.
Top it all off with a vented carbon fiber hood.

I all ready have ducting, which will be modified to be fully sealed and funnel air thru the A/C Core, a Fluidyne, 170* T-Stat, 2 bottles of Water Wetter, 1 gallon of 50/50 mix Prestone and a full gallon of distilled water in the cooling system.

I also have a large Setrab Oil Cooler ready to install and I will be adding an aftermarket P/S Fluid Cooler as well.

A thread will be started and progress pics will be posted.

 

[Ludachris]

A new aftermarket front bumper that will forcefully funnel copious amounts of air thru the FMIC will be picked up on Monday.
A full width by 18" deep splitter will add even more air flow control.
Top it all off with a vented carbon fiber hood.

I all ready have ducting, which will be modified to be fully sealed and funnel air thru the A/C Core, a Fluidyne, 170* T-Stat, 2 bottles of Water Wetter, 1 gallon of 50/50 mix Prestone and a full gallon of distilled water in the cooling system.

I also have a large Setrab Oil Cooler ready to install and I will be adding an aftermarket P/S Fluid Cooler as well.

A thread will be started and progress pics will be posted.

I'm thinking covering up that turbine housing with the new DEI blanket should really help too. But other than that, it sounds like you're on your way to cooler temps. The hood venting makes all the difference, trust me.

 

[xloki77x]

*Not trying to hijack thread, but because we are talking cooling issues*
Ludachris, what do you think of the whole lifting up the back of the hood thing? I, for one, think it not only looks bad, but does not help cooling in the least. I know that a strategically placed vent, allowing air to flow up through the ic/rad and up/out basically right above the turbo is the way to go (I have a 18x10" vent, myself). I have been really into aero lately and have been looking at flow characteristics and pressure zones on car bodies. I had previously searched and found this thread about hood vents and louvers (http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/custom-fabrication/333989-real-hood-louvers.html). This post in particular:

...The low pressure on top of the hood usually occurs at the front edge as that's where the flow is at its fastest. The back side of the hood usually sits in a high pressure area and that's why the AC air intakes are located there and why hood scoops (high in the back) work with carbs. The louvres located at the front of the hood should point backwards so the air gets expelled toward the back as close as possible in the same direction as the air flow over the hood.

The following is a force distribution over a general vehicle:

http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i1097/109741_3mg.jpg

This is a pressure distribution over a vehicle Red for high and Violet for low:

http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i1103/110351_7mg.jpg

Both pictures thanks to autospeed.com from down under.

Good luck.

If you look at the first link you will see that the pressure zone at the top of the hood is actually forcing some air back into the engine bay. Any insight?

Pete

 

[Strm Trpr]

Yeah, those new DEI Turbo Blankets made out of the Lava Rock are really awesome.
I plan on switching my TD05H 18g to a Bolt-On HX35 here in the near future.
The new Turbine Housing, FP Race Manifold and O2 Housing will all be Swaintech "White Lightning" Coated.
The DP will be DEI Titanium Wrapped down to the flex section.

 

[Ludachris]

*Not trying to hijack thread, but because we are talking cooling issues*
Ludachris, what do you think of the whole lifting up the back of the hood thing? I, for one, think it not only looks bad, but does not help cooling in the least. I know that a strategically placed vent, allowing air to flow up through the ic/rad and up/out basically right above the turbo is the way to go (I have a 18x10" vent, myself). I have been really into aero lately and have been looking at flow characteristics and pressure zones on car bodies. I had previously searched and found this thread about hood vents and louvers (http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/custom-fabrication/333989-real-hood-louvers.html). This post in particular:



If you look at the first link you will see that the pressure zone at the top of the hood is actually forcing some air back into the engine bay. Any insight?

Pete

Everything I've read tells me lifting the hood near the windshield will actually bring air in instead of let air out, which is why the old Camaros used cowl hoods. If you look at any road race car, they expel hot air using vents, not cowl hoods or lifting the hood near the windshield - I'm no engineer, but it seems logical.

I actually found these GVR4 vents that I'll be adding soon to assist with more cooling with my existing hood vent:
1987-1992 Mitsubishi Galant Hood Vents [RSMI006] - $99.99 : Zen Cart!, The Art of E-commerce

They're Mitsu-style, light weight, and should look pretty good on a CF hood until I can get it all painted.

 

[asian312]

Well things are starting to look a little more promising. Went out to do some testing in a somewhat scientific manner.

1) First test scenario - sustained 80mph cruise in 5th gear

2) Load test - 70mph in 3rd gear (~5400rpms)

*All tests were monitored via DSMLink and the cooling system was allowed to return to idle temps (183) before starting the next phase. Coolant levels were also checked between tests
*Outside ambient temps were mid 70s

Thus far I've been able to test with and without the splitter. Weather hasn't played nice in the past 3 days to allow testing with sealing off the lower scoop. There were some revealing results though.

Without the splitter, test 1 would slowly, slowly climb to 210 and possibly beyond. Adding the splitter showed temps to hold at 200 degrees

Test 2 immediately had temps climbing out of control without the splitter. With the splitter it was considerably slower at reaching critical limits, but still not trackable.

One interesting thing to point out though, was temps being quickly brought back in check at speeds under 30 or at a dead stop (idle). I have somewhat of a new theory that under loads the manifold and turbo are cooking the radiator and negating any cooling capacity. Two big things that changed was the switch to the aluminum radiator and the increase displacement to 2.3L. This of course is still pumping through the EvoIII 16G and FP manifold.

JMF heat shield is on the list and will be installing the lower heat shield for future tests.

 

[Strm Trpr]

Are you still on the stock OFH?
I thought I read that you are swapping over to an Evo III OFH and an air to air oil cooler.
Once you do that you'll eliminate the CHRA from boiling the coolant that pumps thru the turbo, and the water cooler will not have to draw heat out of the oil as well.

I'm leaving tonight for LA to pick up my front bumper in morning.
I'm also swinging by RRE to pick up a front lower stress bar.

My new front bumper has a much larger opening for the FMIC, and all four sides of the duct in the bumper will seal up to the FMIC, not like cutting the black portion out of a 2gb bumper and having all of the air go over the top of the FMIC.

This new bumper will eliminate the fogs... but oh well.
The new bumper has larger ducts on the sides for both the CAI and Air to Air Oil Cooler.

I know aftermarket bumpers are frowned upon, but this new bumper is purely function over show, and it's ready for a nice fat splitter as well.

I'll start a thread and post pics once the overhaul begins.

Good job on your cooling system endeavors as well...

 

[asian312]

Look forward to seeing that new bumper. Race cars should always be function over form. The pretty stuff happens on the podium

I'll be switching to the Evo III OFH and an air to air oil cooler soon, but I planned on running the cooler where the stock SMIC resides due to the larger space available. With the 2.0 and no FMIC I was able to function on the water cooled OFH, but I suppose all these little steps are required to make things hum. Construction of the ducting and mounting will ensue soon.

I spent 2 hours outside with a tape measure thinking of a way to make a V-mount work, but there just isn't enough room up front.

 

[Scott McIntyre]

I had bought a used oil cooler setup which had originally been setup to run on the passenger side, but I choose to mount it on the driver's side due to my cold-air-intake.

Here's some pics from the previous owner of it on the passenger side:
ECMTuning Forums 01
ECMTuning Forums 02
ECMTuning Forums 03
ECMTuning Forums 04

Here's some pics of how I have it mounted. I had to relocate the horn and some other electrical bits, but it was pretty straight forward: Oil Cooler pictures - Photobucket


Also, I have a ceramic coated FP exhaust manifold with no cover and no hood vent, and no overheating problems on the road circuit.

One problem I am having now is power steering fluid. It seems to be overheating and spitting out fluid from the reservoir cap while on the track. So I'll soon be looking at power steering cooler setup.

 

[xloki77x]

OH MAN, I have been toying with a V Mount setup on my 1g. I just need a better front bumper/splitter design to make the v mount effective. I guess I do have all winter...