Road Racing - FMIC

[Strm Trpr]

The "lower scoop" in post 36 is located in a very low pressure area and I believe that it creates a low pressure area in front of the radiator. Basically the air probably leaves the FMIC and exits below the splitter through the "scoop" and bypasses the radiator. Radiators and intercoolers don't need large openings if they are ducted properly but about 25-50 percent of the core area depending on speed of the car and the altitude. There can be no openings in any of the ducts. Create high pressure in front of the first core and low pressure behind the last one. Seal the ducts with aluminum duct tape at seams and against the bodywork and heat exchangers. My advice would be to close the hole in the splitter and connect the bottom of the FMIC to the bottom of the radiator.

Good luck

Yeah man, it's all about funneling the air thru the FMIC, keeping it sealed and thru the Radiator.
It's kind of a pain the ass to keep it all sealed around the hood latch support, but if the aluminum duct tape is used properly one can do a pretty decent job sealing that area up.
Think of air as a fluid, large FMIC square area with high pressure being forced thru a duct with less cross sectional area will accelerate the air thru the system.
Add a vented carbon fiber hood and you're gravy.

I will be doing all of the above, but the hood is +$500, new bumper I already picked up, $200, ducting materal and tools +$50, and the most important part, is time and area to work in.

I'm currently watching the ALMS race at Laguna Seca on Speed TV.

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

^^^ I got my hood setup for sale

Aluminum duct tape is a great suggestion. I also used Foam insulation for pipes from Home Depot, comes like 4, 3 foot sections and it fits nice and tight between the fmic and the frame, and doesnt let air escape, that in conjunction with aluminum duct tape can get the whole area ducted without trying to figure out how to attach sheetmetal to cover places. Although there is one place that you need to.


Also remember to close up any gaps on the front of the car aside from ones you want air going through. Headlights have tons of air between them and the bumper, close that up. Foglights holes, close those up unless your using them for ducting. Side openings, close those up unless using it for ducting. Basically seal the front end aside from what you want air to go through. I tried painters tape on hood gap, headlight gap, foglights, and side holes, and it dramatically cut my temps for that session (before I had an oil cooler).

In this picture, you can see where I left those holes, covering them up HELPED A TON!

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[wishihadatalon]

The "lower scoop" in post 36 is located in a very low pressure area and I believe that it creates a low pressure area in front of the radiator. Basically the air probably leaves the FMIC and exits below the splitter through the "scoop" and bypasses the radiator. Radiators and intercoolers don't need large openings if they are ducted properly but about 25-50 percent of the core area depending on speed of the car and the altitude. There can be no openings in any of the ducts. Create high pressure in front of the first core and low pressure behind the last one. Seal the ducts with aluminum duct tape at seams and against the bodywork and heat exchangers. My advice would be to close the hole in the splitter and connect the bottom of the FMIC to the bottom of the radiator.

Good luck

Thank you. The raising the back of the hood thing makes no sense unless you are building an intake there. Introducing more air into your engine bay will kill the efficiency of your radiator because you are equalizing the pressure on each side of the radiator and you really want the largest pressure differential that you can get. Air travels from high pressure to low pressure, so if you make that differential larger, you will see more air flow across the radiator.

You should look into trapping as much pressure in front of your intercooler and radiator as possible and look into ways to relieve pressure in the engine bay. Most manufactures have ducting under the car that helps draw air out as the air traveling under the car travels over it. Obviously your splitter will hinder this effect so you are left with going out the hood as your best option. I don't know how much your hood was designed for actual air flow vs. looks but perhaps you could find a nice 4' industrial fan, tape off the intercooler opening, find a fog machine and try to fill your engine bay with fog. From there turn the fan on blowing towards the car and see if the fog will be drawn out the hood vents as air travels over the hood. Myth busters did this ad they used packs of restaurant straws cut in half to stabilize airflow from the fan and direct it at the thing that they were trying to get air to flow over. Its probably not the most scientific test but you could probably draw some good conclusions from it.

My ideal setup for a road race car would be something like the AMS time attack evo X. Our turbo setup would get in the way but if you mounted a radiator in the core support at an angle (which also helps cooling) and then built a duct to a hood scoop, you could probably get a decent amount of air in and out of your radiator.

 

[asian312]

Sealing off the IC to rad is something Scott pointed out very early on, but just haven't got around to testing yet. I know the splitter and hood combination work as testing with it on and off shows dramatic differences in temps. Now whether or not its due to increasing the pressure zone in front of the IC, and/or creating a low pressure zone under the car for air to also be drawn to still needs to be tested. Unfortunately I can only measure coolant temps and not air temps in front and behind the radiator. That would certainly help in diagnosing the radiant heat issue from the manifold and turbo.

I like the idea with doing a v-mount setup, but our nose is too stubby to cram in both IC and rad. Greg did a similar setup a few years back on is 1G (wow has it been that long) and still encountered cooling issues. But no worries, heatshield is on the way and testing will soon resume...once the weather lets up.

 

[asian312]

Also remember to close up any gaps on the front of the car aside from ones you want air going through. Headlights have tons of air between them and the bumper, close that up. Foglights holes, close those up unless your using them for ducting. Side openings, close those up unless using it for ducting. Basically seal the front end aside from what you want air to go through. I tried painters tape on hood gap, headlight gap, foglights, and side holes, and it dramatically cut my temps for that session (before I had an oil cooler).

In this picture, you can see where I left those holes, covering them up HELPED A TON!

Love the ideas and support this thread is generating. I'll certainly give this a shot

 

[xloki77x]

Check out the Sierra Sierra Enterprises (SSE) Time Attack Evo 8. They cut the radiator support and leaned the radiator forward. They also ducted the coolers and brake ducts from in front of the IC. Pretty serious, but not impossible to achieve. I cannot post pics at work, but here are some links to get some ideas:

http://cardomain.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/redline5.jpg
Sierra Sierra Enterprises Time Attack EVO 8. Tuners time to step up your game! - evolutionm.net
DragSport.com - DSport Magazine - Featured Article - Sierra-Sierra's EVO VIII Brings Pro Racing To Time Attack

 

[asian312]

I see two major advantages the Evo's front bumper over the 2Ga or 2Gb. One would be that it is taller and two it has two openings (one being specifically for the the radiator). The SSE TA Evo looks to have both radiator and IC placed at an angle. V mount setups like that found on an RX7 seem like the most plausible option for a single point of entry.

 

[324vr4]

Swept radiators and ICs allow for better cooling efficiencies...nothing past 35* or it reverses it's effects...

 

[KevinBoosted]

^^^ I got my hood setup for sale

Aluminum duct tape is a great suggestion. I also used Foam insulation for pipes from Home Depot, comes like 4, 3 foot sections and it fits nice and tight between the fmic and the frame, and doesnt let air escape, that in conjunction with aluminum duct tape can get the whole area ducted without trying to figure out how to attach sheetmetal to cover places. Although there is one place that you need to.


Also remember to close up any gaps on the front of the car aside from ones you want air going through. Headlights have tons of air between them and the bumper, close that up. Foglights holes, close those up unless your using them for ducting. Side openings, close those up unless using it for ducting. Basically seal the front end aside from what you want air to go through. I tried painters tape on hood gap, headlight gap, foglights, and side holes, and it dramatically cut my temps for that session (before I had an oil cooler).

In this picture, you can see where I left those holes, covering them up HELPED A TON!

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I think im in love with your hood what kind of scoop is that and where did you get it from. Thanks

Kevin

 

[KevinBoosted]

I get this warm fuzzy every time I make a change for the better on my car, especially on a dsm because there is so much to improve upon!

Pete

Best Quote EVER!!!!!

 

[xloki77x]

I think im in love with your hood what kind of scoop is that and where did you get it from. Thanks

Kevin

carbontrix

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

I think im in love with your hood what kind of scoop is that and where did you get it from. Thanks

Kevin

As he said, its carbon trix, their 9x13 one I beleive. Placement is very important, you want it far enough back so that it is creating a low pressure zone far enough back to be effective for the radiator.

You can see here where I was working on ducting for the brakes...

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And here isi the Foam stuff Iwas talking about...

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And my first few attempts before the oil cooler setup to help with temps. You can see high pressure/winds had destroyed the side one on the driver side by the end of the session, so more permanent fixes came later.....And yes I did lap that GT40

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[D_Eclipse9916]

And remember guys....

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[PieEyedPiper]

Wait the wind destroyed what, exactly? The oil cooler?

 

[asian312]

Lets see if this does the trick

 

[xloki77x]

Sweet^^

 

[asian312]

Wow what a difference. Didn't get a chance to log as my laptop battery died, but temps never hit above 210 according to the CEL. Able to do some back to back WOT runs without any hic-cups. Have one more alteration to the heat shield, but I think this may have nipped it. Will still test sealing off the lower scoop to round out the tests.

 

[snowborder714]

Glad to see more proof that heat shields do in fact work

 

[xloki77x]

That's a great improvement. I may just have to get one now...

Pete

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

Wait the wind destroyed what, exactly? The oil cooler?

Wind got the painters tape, so dont think of that as a permanent fix, you can see where it pushed through where my oil cooler later went.

 

[asian312]

If it's worth doing, it's worth over doing.

I was hanging out over at Track Time Performance, brain storming more ideas with my suspension guy Curt when he mentioned something that he liked to do on modified Audis, Porsches, and BMWs. There's a nifty gasket material made by Percy's High Performace (Percy's High Performance) which uses this carbon xx material which touts to resist 2000+ degree flame temps. Well just so happens it makes a great barrier to line heat shields, specially on modified vehicles. Easily attainable at Jegs or Summit, I figured it was worth a shot. I'll report back with the results.

 

[wishihadatalon]

I wonder how well an aerogel blaket would do?

 

[asian312]

Well, I'm happy to report that there is a light at the end of the tunnel to the overheating issues. Tonight we went back out for testing with the lower scoop sealed up. A couple of rolled up t-shirts and duct tape did the trick. Another tid bit to mention is that temps were much colder than than previous tests, but this was also done without the heat shield.

What we saw was a dramatic decrease in temps rising. Previous runs revealed temps starting at 186 and rising to 210+ in under a min. Tonight we have temps starting at 176 and rising to 210 in just over 4 min. But wait you say...temps were still going up? The difference is the heat shield. I have a funny suspicion as the temps slowly increased the radiant heat from the manifold continuously heated the backside of the radiator. Thus decreasing the cooling capabilities of the radiator. Also previously, if the fans were turned off full duty, temps would rise to to ~200 where it was balanced by the ecu. But tonight, temps held steady between 186-193.

I have two more tests to complete which include running without the splitter to determine if it is impeding downward airflow and opening up the mouth of the front bumper cover by removing the black trim.

Big thanks all!

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

Well, I'm happy to report that there is a light at the end of the tunnel to the overheating issues. Tonight we went back out for testing with the lower scoop sealed up. A couple of rolled up t-shirts and duct tape did the trick. Another tid bit to mention is that temps were much colder than than previous tests, but this was also done without the heat shield.

What we saw was a dramatic decrease in temps rising. Previous runs revealed temps starting at 186 and rising to 210+ in under a min. Tonight we have temps starting at 176 and rising to 210 in just over 4 min. But wait you say...temps were still going up? The difference is the heat shield. I have a funny suspicion as the temps slowly increased the radiant heat from the manifold continuously heated the backside of the radiator. Thus decreasing the cooling capabilities of the radiator. Also previously, if the fans were turned off full duty, temps would rise to to ~200 where it was balanced by the ecu. But tonight, temps held steady between 186-193.

I have two more tests to complete which include running without the splitter to determine if it is impeding downward airflow and opening up the mouth of the front bumper cover by removing the black trim.

Big thanks all!

Strange isnt it? Something so small, thank you for providing us with real data. I thought i made a huge difference for me, but I never went to prove it.

I would be wary of cutting the black trim without creating ducting to seal thew new cut. Reason why, with it there, it goes down more, meaning air to travel around the fmichas to speed up faster than it would to go around it, creating more pressure at the front of the fmic.
I cant prove my theory, but I would be careful as that is something to think about. After cutting mine I always felt it would be a billion times better with a duct due to having to cut sides and top out.

 

[Poloturbo]

Quote:"lower scoop sealed up"

What do you mean? I need to do this.

thanks