ECMlink [RESOLVED] 1995 Eagle Talon TSi doesn't build boost

[Brian O Conner]

So I helped a buddy get a 1995 Eagle Talon TSi. It does not build boost it literally goes to about 0 at max. It also redlines at 4500 rpm and cuts out. It does have ECMLink and we have added more fuel to the tuning log maps and it did not make a difference.

The car has randomly once in a blue moon has went up to 17 psi literally maybe 4 times and has booked it. I checked the fuel pump, Walbro 255, bench tested it off the car it definitely is good. I put a brand new fuel filter on. It shows a constant 50 PSI of fuel pressure. We put a brand new stock turbo on there, Blitz BOV. It has a tubular header, performance 3 inch exhaust, performance muffler, and no cats (no back pressure problems here).

We fixed all boost leaks with this pressure tool we got so I know that's not the problem. Brand new plugs and NGK wires, we gapped the plugs good, and no its not spark related.

So my question is this is it safe to say these stock fuel injectors are causing this or would the MAF sensor have anything to do with the car not building boost? At idle it's 15.3 air fuel ratio. I am a 420a guy and since you guys pray to these 4g63 AWD cars I told my buddy to get this .

I was dumb founded about the CAS sensor aka engine positioning sensor and no map sensor. So there's definitely some differences.

 

[curt-s]

If you put the stock turbo back on, you are talking T25?
Is the wastegate staying closed and operating correctly through its range?

 

[miliman13]

You mentioned adding fuel ️
Was it with the MAF sliders
What is AFR when doing a pull
&
Considered testing the waste gate ?

 

[chrysler kid]

The symptoms you describe accurately depict a boost leak.

Can you post a picture of the engine bay, most likely you have a loose vacuum hose.

 

[Justin DuBois]

So I helped a buddy get a 1995 Eagle Talon TSI. It does not build boost it litterly goes to about 0 at max. It also redlines at 4500 rpm and cuts out. It does have ECM link and we have added more fuel to the tuning log maps and it did not make a difference. The car has randomly once in a blue moon has went up to 17 psi litterly maybe 4 times and has booked it. I checked the fuel pump Walbro 255 bench tested it off the car it definitely is good. I put a brand new fuel filter on. It shows a constant 50 PSI of fuel pressure. We put a brand new stock turbo on there, Blitz bov. It has a tubular header performabce 3 inch exhaust, performance muffler and no cats(no back pressure problems here). We fixed all boost leaks with this pressure tool we got so I know thats not the problem. Brand new plugs and NGK wires we gapped the plugs good and no its not spark related. So my question is this is it safe to say these stock fuel injecters are causing this or would the MAF sensor have anything to do with the car not building boost? At idle its 15.3 air fuel ratio. I am a 420a guy and since you guys pray to these 4g63 awd cars I told my buddy to get this . I was dumb founded about the CAS sensor aka engine positioning sensor and no map sensor. So theres definitely some differences.

Post a log so we can inspect the ECU setup, and post a picture of the engine so we can get some context on the configuration. A/T ?

 

[dwb]

It shows a constant 50 PSI of fuel pressure.

That's a bit high for a stock tune. It should also increase 1-to-1 with any amount of boost.

So my question is this is it safe to say these stock fuel injecters are causing this

Have you confirmed ECMLink is set to stock injectors?
How does it run overall (short of building boost)?
Have you checked for any error codes?

 

[Brian O Conner]

If you put the stock turbo back on, you are talking T25?
Is the wastegate staying closed and operating correctly through its range?

We thought that could of been a problem and have adjusted the stock wastegate several times and no difference.

That's a bit high for a stock tune. It should also increase 1-to-1 with any amount of boost.

Have you confirmed ECMLink is set to stock injectors?
How does it run overall (short of building boost)?
Have you checked for any error codes?

It runs great at idle and it starts to cut out and lean the hell out at 4500

It runs great at idle and it starts to cut out and lean the hell out at 4500

It reminds me of what my Toyota Supra was doing. It would cut out on the high end and I changed the fuel pump and fuel filter and everything else and it ended up being the injecters in that car.

The symptoms you describe accurately depict a boost leak.

Can you post a picture of the engine bay, most likely you have a loose vacuum hose.

We have used a special tool you can hook up a an air compressor to 50 psi. I promise you it is not that. That was the first thing we did when we got the car. Also it would be one hell of a boost leak to not allow it to go past 1 psi. As for vacuum leaks, we have sprayed starting fluid all over and no rev ups, car actually idles right on the money.

I will say this it takes cranking over a good amount to start it.

You mentioned adding fuel ️
Was it with the MAF sliders
What is AFR when doing a pull
&
Considered testing the waste gate

From what I am seeing the AFR is leaning the hell out. I started seeing very high numbers like 18 towards the high end of 4500 rpm.

If you put the stock turbo back on, you are talking T25?
Is the wastegate staying closed and operating correctly through its range?

Yes, we actually adjusted it several times after doing research several months ago. That's the first thing I thought was it was the wastegate and blow off valve not being adjusted.

We are literally running in circles on this thing and that's why I am posting this up. Also I know these cars have a 7400 stock redline rpm and this one is cutting out at 4500. That's my red flag right there. It goes from around 15 vacuum at idle to almost 0 psi at 4500. Like its not getting enough fuel to keep it going.

The other thing IMO (strong opinion here not a fact but..) is just how quiet the car is compared to my 420a. This Talon has a 3 inch exhaust performance muffler, fart can and no cat but is really not that loud. My 420a screams, I don't even want it to idle past 10 pm afraid of the cops being called. This car I was rev'ing it up last night at 8pm and had no worry in the world of pissing someone off because it wasn't that loud like it's not having the bang from the fuel exploding.

 

[curt-s]

You say 50psi of fuel pressure. That's not right. It should be 42.5 at idle with the vacuum line off. With vacuum line on, it obvious drops even lower, which is correct as you know. It should not be a constant regardless of vacuum/boost level -- that would tell me that you have a vac line issue or the diaphragm in the AFPR is busted and you could be sucking fuel through the vac line at idle and causing a pressure imbalance otherwise. Is this an aftermarket AFPR?

 

[pauleyman]

Adjust wastegate? On a t25?
Post some pics please. Lots not making sense

 

[curt-s]

Indeed. Also, at what PSI does your wastegate begin to open vs is completely open?

 

[SixBolt_16G]

What is the car using for boost control? Is it possible that ECMLink boost control is restricting or manual controller/solenoid is letting all the boost bleed off?

 

[chrysler kid]

We thought that could of been a problem and have adjusted the Stock wastegate several times and no difference.


It runs great at idle and it starts to cut out and lean the hell out at 4500


It reminds me of what my toyota supra was doing. It would cut out on the high end and i changed the fuel pump and fuel filter and everything else and it ended up being the injecters in that car.


We have used a special tool you can hook up a an air compressor to 50 psi. I promise you it is not that. That was the first thing we did when we got the car. Also it would be one hell of a boost leak to not allow it to go past 1 psi. As for vaccum leaks we have sprayed starting fluid all over and no rev ups car actually idles right on the money. I will say this it takes cranking over a good amount to start it.



from what I am seeing the afr is leaning the hell out I started seeing very high numbers like 18 towards the high end of 4500 rpm.


Yes we actually adjusted it several times after doing research several months ago. Thats the first thing I thought was it was the wastegate and blow off valve not being adjusted. We are litterly running in circles on this thing and thats why I am posting this up. Also I know these cars have a 7400 stock redline rpm and this one is cutting out at 4500. Thats my red flag right there. It goes from atound 15 vaccum at kdle to almost 0 psi at 4500. Like its not getting enough fuel to keep it going. The other thing imo(strong opinion here not a fact but..) is just how quite the car is compared to my 420a. This talon has a 3 inch exhaust performance muffler, fart can and no cat but is really not that loud. My 420a screams I dont even want it to idle past 10 pm afraid of the cops being called This car I was revcing it up last night at 8pm and had no worry in the world of pissing someone off because it wasnt that loud like its not having the bang from the fuel exploding.

Post a picture of the engine bay, a lot of what you’re saying isn’t adding up

 

[Brian O Conner]

These are the pictures the next post is video.

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Here is the video guys.

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[dwb]

Building boost in neutral? I don't think so. Take it out and put some load on it and see.

DSMLink can be configured for launch control, so if you are not moving and launch control is set for, say, 4.5k RPM, it will not rev above 4.5k until the wheels are moving. It'll sit there popping and banging at 4.5k. Could also be configured for a really low rev limiter too.

As others have said, post a log. This is very important for multiple reasons, as we can see your current tune but also see a lot of what's going on with the engine sensors. If you need some ECMLink guidance, we can help too.

Also, that's a 1g engine. Probably a 6-bolt swap. Not sure if that changes anything, but FYI.

 

[steve]

We really need the ECMLink log (cause it looks like you might have a rev limiter enabled) but here's a couple of things I noticed.

First, the spark plug wires are misrouted. 1 and 4 can be next to each other same for 2 and 3 but you shouldn't run 4 next to 3 or 2 net to 1 or you can cause misfiring.
Second, that BOV is not recirculated and unless you're running Speed Density is going to cause tuning issues when it dumps measured air out.
Third, Almost every US boost/vacuum gauge changes units between vacuum and boost. The vacuum side is measured in inches of Mercury and the boost side is in PSI. 19 inhg is a reasonable idle vacuum. You need to watch the AFPR and make sure the FP gauge drops about 8 psi at idle, hits 43.5 psi at 0 vac and rises 1:1 from there with any boost.
Fourth, If you had your fueling correct and the engine up to temp the AFR as idle should be swinging from side to side around 14.7:1 as the ECU dithers fuel in closed loop. Again a log file would tell us why that might not be happening.

 

[Brian O Conner]

Building boost in neutral? I don't think so. Take it out and put some load on it and see.

DSMLink can be configured for launch control, so if you are not moving and launch control is set for, say, 4.5k RPM, it will not rev above 4.5k until the wheels are moving. It'll sit there popping and banging at 4.5k. Could also be configured for a really low rev limiter too.

As others have said, post a log. This is very important for multiple reasons, as we can see your current tune but also see a lot of what's going on with the engine sensors. If you need some ECMLink guidance, we can help too.

Also, that's a 1g engine. Probably a 6-bolt swap. Not sure if that changes anything, but FYI.

Lmao The owner told me that but the last post I did for this car in september idiots on here were telling me it was a 2g engine. I totally give you props you definitely know your stuff.

 

[Justin DuBois]

I agree - looks like a 6 bolt swap with a 1G/GVR4 green top Cam Angle Sensor, and a 1G intake, 1G Head, and 1G water neck.

1. The position of that sensor is very important. If you have not already, I would confirm with a timing light that the timing you see in ECMLink and the timing at the crank match. The accurate way to check is by using the diagnostic checkbox in ECMLink that will hold the timing at 5 deg BTC. Temporarily enable the check box, and then point the timing light at the crank pulley, to see where the mark is aligned on the timing cover. Adjust the position of the CAS as needed to get those two numbers to match.

2. Also agree on checking the spark wires - You probably got it right cause it would not run well at all if you got it wrong - but just confirm that the wires from Cyl 1 and 4 go to one coil, and 2 and 3 go to the other.

3. Boost builds under load, free spinning out of gear would not.

4. Base fuel pressure - target 42.5 psi when the vacuum hose is not connected. You do this setup without the engine running - force the pump on in ECMLink (a temporary check box)
After the base pressure adjustment, confirm your base fuel pressure at idle with the vacuum hose connected drops below your target. ( Down to 37-38 etc ) If you can't get the fuel pressure to to drop, you may be overrunning the fuel return. (a typical GSX issue) It's unlikely that you are overrunning your adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator - but if there is some ridiculously large pump without supporting mods - then it's possible there is a restriction there too.

5. Turbo Waste Gate actuator - You can test for movement on the WG by (engine not running) remove the hose end on the J-Pipe, and push ~15psi down the hose with a air compressor while watching the WG actuator. It should smoothly open the gate - starting around 7 psi.

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Note the position of the jam nut on the WG actuator - it looks loose. After the length of the rod is set, this jam nut should be tight to prevent the length from changing. The length of the rod should be set so the spring is holding some tension on the flapper valve. The amount of tension depends on what PSI you want the actuator to start to open.

6. Weird that your 02 gauge wakes up after you add some RPM's - Is that a Wideband? where is it plumbed in the exhaust? It's reading very lean. What you want to use as a cross check is your factory narrow band o2 - assuming you still have that. The narrow band (Front o2 ) is the one that will adjust fuel trims when you are idling in "closed loop." You can check in ECMLink if you are in closed loop and where the trims are currently trending. In a well calibrated system where the fuel pressure and injector dead times are adjusted, the Combined FT should hover around +-0 when your coolant temps are between 190-205 deg F, throttle position closed and RPM near idle targets.

7. As long as the BOV isn't leaking under idle, you should be able to do your engine idle setup. When you start driving, building boost, and dumping air off throttle - the vent to atmosphere will become an issue running on MAF. I didn't see a IAT in your setup, so this is an outstanding question - Are you running this car as Speed density or MAF?

 

[Brian O Conner]

Post a log so we can inspect the ECU setup, and post a picture of the engine so we can get some context on the configuration. A/T ?

I am going to do a video tonight of it running in real time. So you guys see the graph data.

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[Justin DuBois]

You need to address the coolant temp sensor first first first.
ECU will go to full rich limp mode without a real coolant reading.

 

[Brian O Conner]

I agree - looks like a 6 bolt swap with a 1G/GVR4 green top Cam Angle Sensor, and a 1G intake, 1G Head, and 1G water neck.

1. The position of that sensor is very important. If you have not already, I would confirm with a timing light that the timing you see in ECM Link and the timing at the crank match. The accurate way to check is by using the diagnostic checkbox in ECM link that will hold the timing at 5 deg BTC. Temporarily enable the check box, and then point the timing light at the crank pulley, to see where the mark is aligned on the timing cover. Adjust the position of the CAS as needed to get those two numbers to match.

2. Also agree on checking the spark wires - You probably got it right cause it would not run well at all if you got it wrong - but just confirm that the wires from Cyl 1 and 4 go to one coil, and 2 and 3 go to the other.

3. Boost builds under load, free spinning out of gear would not.

4. Base fuel pressure - target 42.5 psi when the vacuum hose is not connected. You do this setup without the engine running - force the pump on in ECM link (a temporary check box)
After the base pressure adjustment, confirm your base fuel pressure at idle with the vacuum hose connected drops below your target. ( Down to 37-38 etc ) If you can't get the fuel pressure to to drop, you may be overrunning the fuel return. (a typical GSX issue) It's unlikely that you are overrunning your adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator - but if there is some ridiculously large pump without supporting mods - then it's possible there is a restriction there too.

5. Turbo Waste Gate actuator - You can test for movement on the WG by (engine not running) remove the hose end on the J-Pipe, and push ~15psi down the hose with a air compressor while watching the WG actuator. It should smoothly open the gate - starting around 7 psi.

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Note the position of the jam nut on the WG actuator - it looks loose. After the length of the rod is set, this jam nut should be tight to prevent the length from changing. The length of the rod should be set so the spring is holding some tension on the flapper valve. The amount of tension depends on what PSI you want the actuator to start to open.

6. Weird that your 02 gauge wakes up after you add some RPM's - Is that a Wideband? where is it plumbed in the exhaust? It's reading very lean. What you want to use as a cross check is your factory narrow band o2 - assuming you still have that. The narrow band (Front o2 ) is the one that will adjust fuel trims when you are idling in "closed loop." You can check in ECM link if you are in closed loop and where the trims are currently trending. In a well calibrated system where the fuel pressure and injector dead times are adjusted, the Combined FT should hover around +-0 when your coolant temps are between 190-205 deg F, throttle position closed and RPM near idle targets.

7. As long as the BOV isn't leaking under idle, you should be able to do your engine idle setup. When you start driving, building boost, and dumping air off throttle - the vent to atmosphere will become an issue running on MAF. I didn't see a IAT in your setup, so this is an outstanding question - Are you running this car as Speed density or MAF?

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[Justin DuBois]

Zero this out - do not use these sliders for fuel adjustment.

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[dwb]

Oh screenshots. Here's what you do when people ask for a log:

Open your log, click File -> Save As -> click the little house (home) button -> save.
Come on here, reply, click Add Photos. Locate desktop and you will find your log file.

 

[Brian O Conner]

I agree - looks like a 6 bolt swap with a 1G/GVR4 green top Cam Angle Sensor, and a 1G intake, 1G Head, and 1G water neck.

1. The position of that sensor is very important. If you have not already, I would confirm with a timing light that the timing you see in ECM Link and the timing at the crank match. The accurate way to check is by using the diagnostic checkbox in ECM link that will hold the timing at 5 deg BTC. Temporarily enable the check box, and then point the timing light at the crank pulley, to see where the mark is aligned on the timing cover. Adjust the position of the CAS as needed to get those two numbers to match.

2. Also agree on checking the spark wires - You probably got it right cause it would not run well at all if you got it wrong - but just confirm that the wires from Cyl 1 and 4 go to one coil, and 2 and 3 go to the other.

3. Boost builds under load, free spinning out of gear would not.

4. Base fuel pressure - target 42.5 psi when the vacuum hose is not connected. You do this setup without the engine running - force the pump on in ECM link (a temporary check box)
After the base pressure adjustment, confirm your base fuel pressure at idle with the vacuum hose connected drops below your target. ( Down to 37-38 etc ) If you can't get the fuel pressure to to drop, you may be overrunning the fuel return. (a typical GSX issue) It's unlikely that you are overrunning your adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator - but if there is some ridiculously large pump without supporting mods - then it's possible there is a restriction there too.

5. Turbo Waste Gate actuator - You can test for movement on the WG by (engine not running) remove the hose end on the J-Pipe, and push ~15psi down the hose with a air compressor while watching the WG actuator. It should smoothly open the gate - starting around 7 psi.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Note the position of the jam nut on the WG actuator - it looks loose. After the length of the rod is set, this jam nut should be tight to prevent the length from changing. The length of the rod should be set so the spring is holding some tension on the flapper valve. The amount of tension depends on what PSI you want the actuator to start to open.

6. Weird that your 02 gauge wakes up after you add some RPM's - Is that a Wideband? where is it plumbed in the exhaust? It's reading very lean. What you want to use as a cross check is your factory narrow band o2 - assuming you still have that. The narrow band (Front o2 ) is the one that will adjust fuel trims when you are idling in "closed loop." You can check in ECM link if you are in closed loop and where the trims are currently trending. In a well calibrated system where the fuel pressure and injector dead times are adjusted, the Combined FT should hover around +-0 when your coolant temps are between 190-205 deg F, throttle position closed and RPM near idle targets.

7. As long as the BOV isn't leaking under idle, you should be able to do your engine idle setup. When you start driving, building boost, and dumping air off throttle - the vent to atmosphere will become an issue running on MAF. I didn't see a IAT in your setup, so this is an outstanding question - Are you running this car as Speed density or MAa

Are you talking about this? If so what should I set this at as a base map?

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[Justin DuBois]

Are you talking about this? If so what should I set this at as a base map?

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NO - disable idle air clamp
The checkboxes I'm referring to are under the Misc tab "Ground timing connector to ECU"

 

[Brian O Conner]

Zero this out - do not use these sliders for fuel adjustment.

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I just zeroed it out. Whats the next thing i should do?