Questions for Justin...

[TsiJohn333]

Hey man is the clutch wire for 5 speeds even in an auto..If it is I'm good..

If not, How do I hook up 2 step in an auto? To answer your next qeuestion its just for fun.

What the hell does this have to do with turbo tech?

This made me laugh!

 

[Kevin Jewer]

After rebuilding my EVO3 16g the shaft doesn't spin as freely as it did before. Now before it had over .020 thrust play and enough radial play to almost hit the housings, so she was pretty loose and should ahve spun easily. Now there is no discernable thrust play at all and very little radial play, so it's obviously much tighter. Plus the assembly lube. I'm just not sure how tight a freshly rebuilt turbo normally is. At idle it spins but if the rpms come way down it nearly stops. I'm tempted to just take it up to 8k rpm and see if it loosens up but thought I'd ask about it since I won't get another chance to play with it till Wednesday at the earliest anyway. I've seen this asked about a few times in this thread and others but never any resolution or feedback on how well it loosened up from just running it (which seemed to be the plan in each case). It doesn't seem any different after ~30 second of fast idle.

The only issue I had with the rebuild was the turbine wheel/shaft didn't want to click into place, the turbine piston ring seal was opened up too much and couldn't easily compress down to fit into the bore (was out past the bevel). One end of the seal was slightly bent after this so I straightened it out, then pushed the ends closer together and reinstalled, and then it popped right into place with just a little pressure (and a friendly poke from a small screwdriver to guide the seal toward the bevel). I'm assuming if it's still slightly tweaked it could be dragging in the groove. Is it worth changing out this one seal (can they be bought individually?) or is this normal and I should just run it?

 

[Bud92gsx]

I figured out that wire question...The auto has the clutch harness and the brake harness.

 

[JusMX141]

After rebuilding my EVO3 16g the shaft doesn't spin as freely as it did before. Now before it had over .020 thrust play and enough radial play to almost hit the housings, so she was pretty loose and should ahve spun easily. Now there is no discernable thrust play at all and very little radial play, so it's obviously much tighter. Plus the assembly lube. I'm just not sure how tight a freshly rebuilt turbo normally is. At idle it spins but if the rpms come way down it nearly stops. I'm tempted to just take it up to 8k rpm and see if it loosens up but thought I'd ask about it since I won't get another chance to play with it till Wednesday at the earliest anyway. I've seen this asked about a few times in this thread and others but never any resolution or feedback on how well it loosened up from just running it (which seemed to be the plan in each case). It doesn't seem any different after ~30 second of fast idle.

The only issue I had with the rebuild was the turbine wheel/shaft didn't want to click into place, the turbine piston ring seal was opened up too much and couldn't easily compress down to fit into the bore (was out past the bevel). One end of the seal was slightly bent after this so I straightened it out, then pushed the ends closer together and reinstalled, and then it popped right into place with just a little pressure (and a friendly poke from a small screwdriver to guide the seal toward the bevel). I'm assuming if it's still slightly tweaked it could be dragging in the groove. Is it worth changing out this one seal (can they be bought individually?) or is this normal and I should just run it?

Hey there, Kevin!

It should spin freely after being assembled. The only turbos I've seen which had a "drag" to them when spinning were those which had a carbon seal on the compressor side. Dynamic compressor seals were introduced to reduce this parasitic drag, and as a result the shaft should spin freely and unrestricted.

I think you're right in that the seal is binding somehow....either from being bent, or sometimes excessive shaft play can allow the turbine seal groove to rub the housing and rub itself shut a bit which will also bind the seal much like a pinched piston ring groove on an engine.

A good example of how excessive play can rub a seal groove shut is:

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Compare to this new turbine's seal groove:

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Shoot me a PM if you're in need of a seal.

 

[whe3ls]

Should i feed my t04b from the ofh or head? I still have my bs. And should the oil feed be restricted?

 

[JusMX141]

Filter housing, and possibly.

 

[92 GSR-4]

Justin,


Couple questions about my MHI Small 16g. It had a wrecked compressor wheel but otherwise was in great shape. I probably could have just replaced the compressor wheel, but decided to rebuild it instead.

The turbine seal that came in the kit doesn't seem to fit the shaft correctly. I cleaned both the shaft and the center section and the shaft still takes a lot of force to pop into the CHRA, and then the turbine shaft can just fall back out if I turn it upside down. Then I have to pry the turbine seal out of the groove because it's seized. Can I reuse the old turbine seal? The turbo wasn't leaking oil before the rebuild.

The second question I have is if I use the new compressor wheel (component balanced) and 12-point nut that came in the rebuild kit will the balance be okay? The turbo was originally VSR balanced, indicated by the grind marks on the nut.

Video for clarity:

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/nHHkvZPqQVk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[JusMX141]

I wouldn't re-use the old seal, who knows the age...and heat cycles eventually ruin the seal's spring tension.

What parts kit did you use? It almost sounds like they sent you a kit with the wrong turbine seal.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Thanks Justin. I checked it again when I got home this morning and it's way to stiff, not gonna run it like that for sure. I'll open it back up and take a closer look at that seal and groove.

 

[92 GSR-4]

I know the age. I used to run low 12's on it back in the day...bought it brand new in '04 or so. Has about 40-50K on it.

Kit is pictured. I set the thrust plate aside to make it easy for you to identify it. SOMEBODY on here wouldn't sell me a kit so I got it from somewhere else

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[whe3ls]

Filter housing, and possibly.

Ok, whats max oil pressure. Im going to be running a oil pressure gauge off the same port on the oil housing.

 

[JusMX141]

Kit is pictured. I set the thrust plate aside to make it easy for you to identify it.

Can't really tell much about the seal from the photo, and that kit does have a steel thrust plate with a second oiling hole...so be sure you're feeding this turbo from the filter housing and using a high-ZDDP oil or you'll risk a premature failure.

I'm having a hard time understanding how a turbine sealing ring can be difficult to install yet allow the shaft to fall right back out. Are you certain the sealing surface of the center housing isn't screwed up, preventing the seal from seating properly?

Try removing the sealing ring from the shaft and just fitting the ring itself into the center housing...taking notice of the end gap. Does it seem like there's a huge gap, or not much gap at all?

If the old sealing ring seems to fit tightly and doesn't appear to visually have any wear, you *may* be able to get away with re-using it after it's thoroughly cleaned....but this really isn't recommended. It's like tearing an engine down completely for a rebuild and re-using the old piston rings.

Ok, whats max oil pressure. Im going to be running a oil pressure gauge off the same port on the oil housing.

You'll want at least 35psi and no more than 65-70psi under load; restrict as necessary without over-restricting. Also be sure the drain line is as straight as possible without any kinks.

 

[whe3ls]

my return is a straight barb coming off the turbo and a 45 off the oil pan.

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[JusMX141]

You may want to angle the center housing a little more toward the block of the car so the drain doesn't have to make a sharp bend right off the bottom of the straight barb headed to the 45*. Just trying to prevent a possible kink right there at the turbo.

 

[92 GSR-4]

I'm having a hard time understanding how a turbine sealing ring can be difficult to install yet allow the shaft to fall right back out. Are you certain the sealing surface of the center housing isn't screwed up, preventing the seal from seating properly?

Yeah, the CHRA is fine. The seal is the issue. It's a little too wide for the groove in the turbine shaft or something. When I 'pop' the turbine and seal into the CHRA, the seal compresses and gets wedged in the groove in the shaft and it won't come loose. That's why it'll just fall out of the CHRA - it's not 'springing' out and sealing against the bore.

Try removing the sealing ring from the shaft and just fitting the ring itself into the center housing...taking notice of the end gap.

End gap is like a hairline crack, meaning it nearly touches, but there is some end gap. If you need a precise measurement I can get that, but I'm probably throwing this seal away or working on it with a file.

you *may* be able to get away with re-using it after it's thoroughly cleaned....but this really isn't recommended. It's like tearing an engine down completely for a rebuild and re-using the old piston rings.

Understood. I see the logic so I'm just going to look for a new turbine seal.

You'll want at least 35psi and no more than 65-70psi under load; restrict as necessary without over-restricting. Also be sure the drain line is as straight as possible without any kinks.

GREAT info, I'll save this kit to use later and use a kit with the brass thrust bearing as I'll be putting this S16g on a nearly-stock 4G63 to use as a dd and don't want to use the high zinc oil. Thanks for the heads up!


* As for the other question pertaining to the balance. It had a nut that was ground on, meaning it was VSR balanced. So if I replace the compressor with a component balanced one, and use the regular nut in the rebuild kit will I be okay? The turbine wheel has balance marks cut in it.

 

[JusMX141]

Yeah, the CHRA is fine. The seal is the issue. It's a little too wide for the groove in the turbine shaft or something. When I 'pop' the turbine and seal into the CHRA, the seal compresses and gets wedged in the groove in the shaft and it won't come loose. That's why it'll just fall out of the CHRA - it's not 'springing' out and sealing against the bore.

Actually, it sounds to me like the turbine seal groove got pinched shut a little from rubbing the center housing...similar to what I pointed out to Kevin above. The old seal wore to fit the groove where the new seal is the factory spec.

If you're going to file anything, I'd work on opening the seal groove on the turbine a little bit...but use a drill press or something to keep the turbine spnning so the work is fairly precise.

* As for the other question pertaining to the balance. It had a nut that was ground on, meaning it was VSR balanced. So if I replace the compressor with a component balanced one, and use the regular nut in the rebuild kit will I be okay? The turbine wheel has balance marks cut in it.

Yeah you'd want to lose the nut that has the balance grinds if you're replacing the compressor.

 

[RedTsi_PR]

Justin i inow you have answered this a trillion times but im having a dillema here,I currently own a 7 blades HY35 with the 9cm turbine and also have a 8 Blades 58mm HX40 with the bullseye .70 housing and im not decided on whichone to run.Engine is a 6 bolt built with HKS 272's and a Turbonetic T3 cast,setup is going on a awd swapped 89 mirage hatch.My quest is for 500+ and have the ability to rev it to 8500 to 9000 rpms.So with all that said which one should i use.

 

[IrishBeatdown]

Justin i inow you have answered this a trillion times but im having a dillema here,I currently own a 7 blades HY35 with the 9cm turbine and also have a 8 Blades 58mm HX40 with the bullseye .70 housing and im not decided on whichone to run.Engine is a 6 bolt built with HKS 272's and a Turbonetic T3 cast,setup is going on a awd swapped 89 mirage hatch.My quest is for 500+ and have the ability to rev it to 8500 to 9000 rpms.So with all that said which one should i use.

I'd run the HY35. Those turbos have so much untapped potential it is rediculous. Most people don't even realize how much power they make. After I toy around with the h1c I bought, i want to run a HY35. Most dsmers tend to stick with what works turbo and partswise. It's a bit of a pain to run the HY35 when compared to the hx35, hx40, hx55, which all interchange quite nicely in terms of fittment. Using the HY35 means custom intercooler piping, and after the average dsmer first pieces together a holset turbo setup, fabbing a custom downpipe, and fabricating a custom -12an drain, they are usually not in the mood to continue down the custom track for a turbo that not many people run. I've seen some good results on it though. Be different and rock that hy35. Justin has given that turbo a lot of love as well from what ive seen on his writeups on it.

 

[bastarddsm]

I'd run the HY35. Those turbos have so much untapped potential it is rediculous. Most people don't even realize how much power they make. After I toy around with the h1c I bought, i want to run a HY35. Most dsmers tend to stick with what works turbo and partswise. It's a bit of a pain to run the HY35 when compared to the hx35, hx40, hx55, which all interchange quite nicely in terms of fittment. Using the HY35 means custom intercooler piping, and after the average dsmer first pieces together a holset turbo setup, fabbing a custom downpipe, and fabricating a custom -12an drain, they are usually not in the mood to continue down the custom track for a turbo that not many people run. I've seen some good results on it though. Be different and rock that hy35. Justin has given that turbo a lot of love as well from what ive seen on his writeups on it.

I run the HY and it kicks ass. Run it on the turbonetics manifold. It's easy to make the 02 housing. Getting 500 from it is easy, and it starts getting hard after that, but I got 604 outa mine on E85. The internal gate works fine as long as you want 25+ psi, and its just such a neat tidy package.

 

[RedTsi_PR]

Bastard i read your profile and your setup sound sick,also i know that there already 2 guys that have run high tens on the HY.

 

[JusMX141]

Justin i inow you have answered this a trillion times but im having a dillema here,I currently own a 7 blades HY35 with the 9cm turbine and also have a 8 Blades 58mm HX40 with the bullseye .70 housing and im not decided on whichone to run.Engine is a 6 bolt built with HKS 272's and a Turbonetic T3 cast,setup is going on a awd swapped 89 mirage hatch.My quest is for 500+ and have the ability to rev it to 8500 to 9000 rpms.So with all that said which one should i use.

Simple- the HY35. The BEP .70 housing will never clear the block without a spacer using that manifold.

i know that there already 2 guys that have run high tens on the HY.

The quickest of which being an entire setup that I put together for my friend Gabe almost 3 years ago. I believed in the Turbonetics / HY35 setup, and he backed up my beliefs.

10.71 and 134mph is quite impressive for a 2G right off the street with zero weight reduction. In a lighter car almost anything is possible. To be honest there's a lot left in that setup; at the Shootout when the 10.71 pass happened there was a bolt missing from the wastegate flange (stripped) and the car was only making boost in the high 20's and logging around 52 lb/min. Gabe guaranteed that a lower time is possible, but he's sort-of planning a partout of that car over the winter to fund his Evo build. He's actually owned his Evo longer than his 2G, and he's itching to do something with it since it's been stock this entire time.

The other HY35 user you mentioned, Ricky, put his old Spyder GSX's HY setup on his Evo just before the Shootout....and here's his most recent result on street tires and pump gas:

My EVO [email protected] 93 Octane w/ HY35 - YouTube

A little lower tire pressure and that was likely a 10-second pass....it spun clear through the 60ft.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

I'd run the HY35. Those turbos have so much untapped potential it is rediculous. Most people don't even realize how much power they make. After I toy around with the h1c I bought, i want to run a HY35. Most dsmers tend to stick with what works turbo and partswise. It's a bit of a pain to run the HY35 when compared to the hx35, hx40, hx55, which all interchange quite nicely in terms of fittment. Using the HY35 means custom intercooler piping, and after the average dsmer first pieces together a holset turbo setup, fabbing a custom downpipe, and fabricating a custom -12an drain, they are usually not in the mood to continue down the custom track for a turbo that not many people run. I've seen some good results on it though. Be different and rock that hy35. Justin has given that turbo a lot of love as well from what ive seen on his writeups on it.

You have some misinformation posted there.

The HX52/55 turbos are not in the least able to "interchange quite nicely in terms of fitment" with the HX35/40.

The HY35 is a T3 single scroll turbine, which will bolt up to a few manifolds, some of which may require milling the head flange or the turbo side flange to clear the block.

Now compare that to the HX52 which requires a custom manifold or modifying a very expensive shearer/jmf manifold, machining the half-marmon discharge flange to accept a v-band, milling out the bolt holes on your custom manifold's T4 flange, re-locating the alternator, as well as potentially deleting your power steering system and getting a forward facing oil filter to accommodate the downpipe.

 

[RedTsi_PR]

Simple- the HY35. The BEP .70 housing will never clear the block without a spacer using that manifold.


The quickest of which being an entire setup that I put together for my friend Gabe almost 3 years ago. I believed in the Turbonetics / HY35 setup, and he backed up my beliefs.

10.71 and 134mph is quite impressive for a 2G right off the street with zero weight reduction. In a lighter car almost anything is possible. To be honest there's a lot left in that setup; at the Shootout when the 10.71 pass happened there was a bolt missing from the wastegate flange (stripped) and the car was only making boost in the high 20's and logging around 52 lb/min. Gabe guaranteed that a lower time is possible, but he's sort-of planning a partout of that car over the winter to fund his Evo build. He's actually owned his Evo longer than his 2G, and he's itching to do something with it since it's been stock this entire time.

The other HY35 user you mentioned, Ricky, put his old Spyder GSX's HY setup on his Evo just before the Shootout....and here's his most recent result on street tires and pump gas:

My EVO [email protected] 93 Octane w/ HY35 - YouTube

A little lower tire pressure and that was likely a 10-second pass....it spun clear through the 60ft.

I gave the turbonetic manifold to my machinist and he machined the head flange that now it accepts any holset without even denting the water pipe,So the manifold is not a problem.It sure the HY sounds tempting but im worried about powerband.

 

[AngelOfPassion]

Hey Justin,

I have been reading a lot of your posts on oil contamination in turbo's and I have an Evo III 16G from Forced Performance that I am going to install soon. I have switched to Valvoline VR-1 oil for the high zinc rating already. I was wondering, you always talk about the oil feed and return for the turbo being crucial, so I would assume FP's install kit for the 16g would have the correct flow for their own turbo correct? Have you had any experience with their kit?

Also, in regard to metal shavings, my T25 has been fine since I purchased the vehicle last year and the previous owner said he's never had a problem with it so I would assume my engine oil is in decent condition and would be safe for the Evo III right? I change my own oil and I havent noticed anything out of the ordinary such as shavings. Sometimes I see some slight contamination but I can never tell if it is just build up that is on my oil pan or if it's actually coming from the oil itself.

I really want to protect this turbo and do it right the first time so I am getting as much info as possible. I just couldn't find enough of your posts regarding the oil feed/return for this turbo.

 

[RedTsi_PR]

Im gonna rock the shit out of the HY then