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Questions for Justin...

Posted by kidtsi, Feb 19, 2011

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  1. turboglenn

    turboglenn Proven Member

    5,401
    95
    Joined Nov 5, 2007
    RIpley, West Virginia
    hahah... most either get a good laugh or realise their's isn't as beat up as what's been run by some. although ebarrassing and the reason i went to the tPTE6776 during the head rebuild, i was forced to run it that way for over a year and still made 438hp :D
     
  2. JusMX141

    JusMX141 Moderator

    12,761
    747
    Joined Dec 13, 2005
    Greensburg, Pennsylvania
    Makes you wonder how crucial balance really is, doesn't it? :D
     

    3K  0

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    manual · 2G DSM

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    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi
    manual · 1G DSM

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    1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM
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  3. SkyGrowsCold

    SkyGrowsCold Proven Member

    120
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    Joined Aug 10, 2003
    Barnegat, New Jersey
    That makes me wonder about a lot of things. It seems almost as if the wheel is still spinning it's still forcing air in and from Glenns' numbers, still making good power. I'm starting to think if I removed the air filter and sucked in a garden gnome as long as there is still something that resembles a fin I'm good to go. LOL
     
  4. Ricardo

    Ricardo Proven Member

    237
    1
    Joined Aug 23, 2002
    Porto Alegre, South America
    Going to bother a little bit more if that's ok. :D This is all theoretical and by no means I'm looking for a true scientific answer, just some ideas based on your expertise.

    I've been learning a lot lately about turbos and trying a few things, more specifically focused on the BW S300SX series that seems to gone real cheap now and overall is an awesome turbo. I already bought a 8375 and machined a BEP Housing T3 A/R .70, but ended up selling it because decided to set the bar a little higher. So, trying to keep it to theory first to avoid wasting anymore money. My "fight" is still with T4 vs. T3 platform, while we have many successful turbos running high horsepower in T3, I am trying to find out if I can bust the myth and go T4 on a relatively small engine with no Twin Scroll. Idea is to find best suiting combination of turbo setup to achieve my goals. Power-wise it's 700 to 750HP during competition and normal power in ~450whp range. (increased reliability in the drivetrain, otherwise I wouldn't care).

    I've been eager to try a T4 turbo, but still a bit skeptical. Right now I have 3 turbos in mind narrowed down based on cost and reliability:
    - S300SX 88/75 (63mm inducer/88 exducer) w/ BEP A/R .70 T3 Housing
    - S300SX FMW (62mm inducer/84 exducer) w/ BW A/R .88 T4 Housing
    - BEP S366 (66mm inducer/91 exducer) A/R .70 T3 Housing

    All of them with the following turbine size: 76mm/68mm. Additionally, I can choose a non-cupped wheel for quicker spooling on the FMW turbo.

    I'm honestly trying to figure out what will be the difference in spool up rate and response from each turbo. The S300SX3 with the T3 would definitively be the fastest spooling and responding of them, but I'm not sure it will be up to the task of reaching 700HP on such small housing. That leaves me wondering how would a S366 w/ T3 .70 compare to a S300SX FMW w/ T4 .88.

    I'm more of a fan of progressively picking up turbos in favor to the "kick in the nuts" all boost in a glance when it reaches the needed flow to pick it up. I'm aware I can use electronic devices to simulate that effect and ease on my drivetrain and I'm using that, but if I can make the mechanical part work towards that as well, it would be great.

    Throwing in some variables about the engine: Displacement ~2050cc, 5cylinders, good flowing head 20v w/ springs and cams proven to be run fairly smooth up to 8800rpm, though I normally cut in 8200rpm when not competing.

    Other goals:
    - More progressive turbo pickup (not a torque slam) to ease on the drivetrain (we will try to do this with electronic boost control aids as well, but if mechanical factors can contribute, better)
    - Progressive spool up to take advantage of max. torque closer to redline (6000-7000rpm)
    - Max power @ ~8000-8500rpm (don't mind not maximizing setup)

    Now, to the questions. Don't bother being 100% correct or scientific, once again I'm just asking your opinion based on experience.

    1. Would the smaller T3 A/R .70 be more prone to cause the "kick in the nuts" effect? I mean, once it reaches the needed amount of flow to get the spool-up going, would it grow boost much quicker (and less progressively) than the larger A/R .88 housing on T4, thus causing the huge torque entrance right away instead of in bits? I'm concerned about this due to the gearbox. I've seen a BEP S362 in a setup similar to mine and the spool-up once it hit was real instantaneous, normally breaking 3rd gear if I decided to have it spool up on the highway. In other occasions but dosing the accelerator a lot more (ie not being at 4500rpm and slam WOT in 3rd gear, but pumping it in bits) the gearbox would live up long. Even at hard launches... problem really is to be cruising and go WOT in 3rd/4th+ gear. I seen about 8 gearboxes go in this very same condition, while at the strip with VHT and hard launch they would hold up together. Figures...

    2. How would the spool up and top-end compare on the 66mm T3 A/R .70 Turbo vs. 62mm T4 A/R .88 turbo?

    Thanks and apologies for the long texts. :boring:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2014

    296  0

    1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    13.700 @ 106.000 · 2G DSM
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  5. NOSLO2PT0

    NOSLO2PT0 Proven Member

    2,002
    11
    Joined Aug 31, 2002
    Joliet, Illinois
    Justin,
    What's the maximum angle I can clock the CHRA and still maintain good oil drain characteristics? Running a DBB PTE 6076 with a Treadstone cast T3 manifold. Problem is....the Treadstone pitches the turbo at an angle, and the turbine housing flange is in the way of the oil feed fitting. Assuming I can tweak the return line fitting/piping to achieve a more straight down approach, does the feed angle matter in these two pics? One angle better than the other?

    2012-01-09182022.jpg

    2012-01-09182838.jpg
     
  6. JusMX141

    JusMX141 Moderator

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    Joined Dec 13, 2005
    Greensburg, Pennsylvania
    A smaller housing will definitely bring the torque numbers up by adding backpressure but may come at a cost of peak flow. I'd look around and see what other guys are logging with the T3 .70 housing and the turbo in question to verify that it will get you to your goal.

    Once you reach a certain airflow level (compressor size) you pretty much need to abandon the T3 platform altogether if you want to make power or else you're better off staying with something smaller. I honestly never expected to see the HX40 results I experienced last year with the .70 T3 housing on the stock HX40 turbine wheel. No clue it would flow as much as it did....but the end is near I'm sure.

    I wouldn't count on seeing more than 75 lb/min of airflow making it's way through a T3 .70 housing unless the turbo in question has a monster turbine wheel.
    Honestly I can't answer spool questions at all....even for the DSM platform. No matter what it seems like one guy will step in and say he's seeing full boost at 3000, another at 6000. Too many variables.

    I *believe* Garrett's spec is 30* while Mitsu recommends more like 10*.

    Regardless, the closer you are to vertical the better...although when feeding from the head with a .030" ball-bearing restrictor in the feed line, the amount of oil that will actually drain from the cartridge is going to be such a small amount that you should be fine with the cartridge set the way it is in your first photo there. Just make sure the drain has zero kinks, and remember that two 45* fittings are preferred over one 90* fitting on the drain. :thumb:
     

    3K  0

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    manual · 2G DSM

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    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi
    manual · 1G DSM

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    1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM
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  7. arrowhead

    arrowhead Proven Member

    575
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    Joined Apr 19, 2011
    miami, Florida
    Hi

    Let me begin by saying I am totally new to turbos but trying to get educated as much as my brain can absorb which is not much.

    This turbo came in a 98 talon tsi was told the unit was a big 16g since the comp. wheel had small and large blades it does not have any play up and down and very minimal fore and aft. I would like to use it in a dedicated road race car and from what i understand this size would be just ideal.
    I was also told that the O2 housing is not the one that comes w/ this unit and the turbine housing looks different, so I am still in the dark.
    The engine will probably end up as 2.3 since it is lock up and the crank may have to be changed thanks for any help.

    arrowhead

    Well I can not upload pictures I most be doing something wrong.
     

    Road Race Build 2K  0

    1998 Eagle Talon TSi
    manual · 2G DSM
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  8. JusMX141

    JusMX141 Moderator

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    Joined Dec 13, 2005
    Greensburg, Pennsylvania
    Yeah I'll pretty much need to see pics.
     

    3K  0

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    manual · 2G DSM

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    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi
    manual · 1G DSM

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    1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM
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  9. Bud92gsx

    Bud92gsx Proven Member

    7,999
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    Joined Jan 16, 2008
    Wisconsin, Wisconsin
    Had a question..The other night some turbo thread came up..I was wondering if you have heard of the 14g wheel...And how much flow it offered over the 14b wheel..
     

    5K  19  14

    1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    13.300 @ 102.400 · 1G DSM
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  10. hubz91talontsi

    hubz91talontsi Proven Member

    988
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    Joined Jul 30, 2007
    bentleyville, Pennsylvania

    687  0

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    · 1G DSM
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  11. JusMX141

    JusMX141 Moderator

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    Joined Dec 13, 2005
    Greensburg, Pennsylvania
    ROFL Chad knows what's up.

    Like I need any more work!
     

    3K  0

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    manual · 2G DSM

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    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi
    manual · 1G DSM

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    1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM
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  12. Bud92gsx

    Bud92gsx Proven Member

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    Joined Jan 16, 2008
    Wisconsin, Wisconsin

    5K  19  14

    1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    13.300 @ 102.400 · 1G DSM
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  13. FFgeoff

    FFgeoff Proven Member

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    0
    Joined Jun 27, 2002
    ,
    an important note - most T4 turbine housings are twinscroll. In my experience, a singlescroll T3 of small A/R will generally spool later than a twinscroll T4 of larger A/R (assuming of course the manifolds are apporpriately changed to match the housing)


    im in a rush and typing this on my cell phone - but i believe the BW turbos work best in twinscroll config. If you want to run it in singlescroll config - the s300sx fmw w/ flat tip turbine wheel is the one. the T3 housing you have should work well on it. do NOT run the 66mm compressor wheel on the 76mm turbine!

    edit: btw i am the Lead Engineer @ Full-Race
     
  14. Bricktop

    Bricktop Proven Member

    164
    3
    Joined Aug 24, 2009
    Corydon, Indiana
    Hey Justin, Where is a good place to buy Holset rebuild kits? I ran a search. If I missed the aanswer to this question sorry.
     
  15. hubz91talontsi

    hubz91talontsi Proven Member

    988
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    Joined Jul 30, 2007
    bentleyville, Pennsylvania
    Justin as you know i just sold my 18g's.. Going to go hx52 or s366 on the supra. Looking for your opinion on which of the two you would pick. Goal is 600ish on e85 this year. This is a stockblock 2j which will be on mostly 93octane. I want a single that will spool around the same area as the stock turbos (4250-4500)
     

    687  0

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    · 1G DSM
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  16. JusMX141

    JusMX141 Moderator

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    Greensburg, Pennsylvania
    That's correct assuming you're running a twin-scroll manifold on the twin-scroll housing.

    As stated above, the member in question has a 5-cylinder so proper twin-scroll plumbing goes out the window.
    Cummins dealer. Give them the assembly number on your turbo.
    Depends on what your top priority is.

    Spool:
    1) S366
    2) HX52

    Airflow:
    1) HX52
    2) S366

    Fitment / Ease of installation:
    1) S366
    2) HX52

    Price:
    1) HX52
    2) S366
     

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    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    manual · 2G DSM

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    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi
    manual · 1G DSM

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    1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM
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  17. NOSLO2PT0

    NOSLO2PT0 Proven Member

    2,002
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    Joined Aug 31, 2002
    Joliet, Illinois
    Geoff, Why don't we want the 66mm comp/76mm turbine combo? And what is the "fmw" designation for the S300SX?
     
  18. hubz91talontsi

    hubz91talontsi Proven Member

    988
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    Joined Jul 30, 2007
    bentleyville, Pennsylvania
    S366 is about equal to a 40r correct? Would it outflow a 40r with the batmowheel?
     

    687  0

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    · 1G DSM
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  19. genegoesfast

    genegoesfast Proven Member

    387
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    Joined Dec 3, 2010
    Nashville, Tennessee
    Hey Justin. Can coolant leak inside the center housing of a 20g and make it's way into the oil return line?
     

    713  0

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    · 2G DSM
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  20. JusMX141

    JusMX141 Moderator

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    Greensburg, Pennsylvania
    Depends which 40R....the S366 compressor measures 66/92.7; the 4088 measures 63.5/88 while the 4094 is 67.5/94.

    So the 366 compressor is larger than the 4088, smaller than the 4094.

    If the center housing is cracked internally in some way, sure. Otherwise it's nearly impossible for the turbo to put coolant into the oil system.

    You can run the turbo with no coolant if you want to rule it out.
     

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    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    manual · 2G DSM

    5K  14

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi
    manual · 1G DSM

    3K  0

    1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM
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  21. genegoesfast

    genegoesfast Proven Member

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    Joined Dec 3, 2010
    Nashville, Tennessee
    Cool thats what I thought. I experienced some pretty serious bubbling on a BLT I did yesterday, though I was pretty sure it was in the oil pan.
     

    713  0

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    · 2G DSM
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  22. pneumo

    pneumo Proven Member

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    Bay Area, California
    It's very common to hear oil bubbling in the pan during a BLT. Nothing to worry about.
     

    2K  0

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    11.514 @ 118.130 · 1G DSM
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  23. arrowhead

    arrowhead Proven Member

    575
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    Joined Apr 19, 2011
    miami, Florida
    Hope this helps thanks.
     

    Attached Files:

    Road Race Build 2K  0

    1998 Eagle Talon TSi
    manual · 2G DSM
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  24. JusMX141

    JusMX141 Moderator

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    Joined Dec 13, 2005
    Greensburg, Pennsylvania
    Definitely a Small 16G.

    Not sure if that makes you :) or :(
     

    3K  0

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    manual · 2G DSM

    5K  14

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi
    manual · 1G DSM

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    1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM
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  25. TSimage

    TSimage Supporting VIP

    778
    14
    Joined Jan 10, 2006
    Sacramento, California
    Shameless plug hubz but I have a billet wheel HX52 with polished comp housing FS for a lot less than a 366 will run ya. Jus tryin to help get that turbo out there and see it ran regardless of the platform.
     

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