Question on big turbos

[TSi Kid]

I've been doing some reading for the last couple of days (procrastinating finishing my finals) about bigger turbos holsets, garrets, fp, mitsu, etc

why is it that people throw on huge turbos when you see people hitting tens on 14bs and 16gs

I know its possible to hit tens with an e3 on ethenol, 1000cc injectors, dsm link, and water/meth so why do you see people who have huge turbos but run 11s or 12s and aren't even close to reaching the max of that turbos potential

i currently have an e3 with an external wastegate setup and my goal for my car is high 10s to low 11s I know that it is possible to reach this goal but is there a different setup that could let me achieve this easier?

regaurdless of what turbo i end up with i plan on running ethenol and water/meth injection (no nitrous)

I'm trying to better myself with all things boost so any information/opinion would be appreciated

 

[mindset]

That's because people running those smaller chargers have squeezed the power out of them. Just have to know how to do it right.
Using a larger one, which flows more air, will create power easier.

 

[JusMX141]

An Evo III 16G peaks around 42 lb/min of airflow. You can generate boost after the turbo stops producing airflow, but it's hot air which is both inefficient in terms of making power and very hard on the turbo itself.

How are guys making 500whp and running 10's on 16G's? Very light weight cars, reductions in the rotational mass (light rotors, rims, hubs), great drivers, and exceptional tuning. A high compression engine will make the most out of the low airflow that a 16G provides, but you have to be carful as a high compression engine is much easier to detonate than a low compression engine.

With that in mind, a 42 lb/min turbo at 28psi on a 9.0:1 engine will make the same power as a 52 lb/min turbo at a slightly lower boost level on a 7.8:1 engine....the difference being that 52 lb/min turbo will be able to run pump fuel, and the 52 lb/min turbo will be easier to tune because it will be much less prone to knock or detonation.

 

[donniekak]

Get some cams in that engine, and switch to e85 before you even think about going bigger.

 

[92tsiawdguy]

Nitrous is also used sometimes to make these ten and nine second passes

 

[Ppayer38]

This is a very legit question and I have often thought about it myself because ive read over and over that bigger is not always better but then again why try to squeeze the life out of a 16g when a 20g can do the samething with half the effort and with being just as streetable(In my eyes that is a turbo that can be fully spooled before 4500rpms and keep pulling until readline hard)

I cant really speak 1st hand on why people upgrade because I am trying to kill my 14b as we speak so I have a reason to get a 20g but I would like to hear more opinions & facts on this issue... But Justin does make a really good point already

I will be jumping from my 14b to a 20g so I can make the power I want easily and keep a very safe/streetable/Daily Driven tune on the car that will last as if it came off the showroom floor that way or atleast that is my goal.

 

[rlacasse1]

Something that I have noticed quite often is that people just slap a turbo on their car and goes well it flows xxlbs/min, rather than do the math to figure out which turbo will be the most efficient on their vehicle.

Seems like kind of a stupid way to go about it to me.

 

[diambo4life]

I've been doing some reading for the last couple of days (procrastinating finishing my finals) about bigger turbos holsets, garrets, fp, mitsu, etc

why is it that people throw on huge turbos when you see people hitting tens on 14bs and 16gs

I know its possible to hit tens with an e3 on ethenol, 1000cc injectors, dsm link, and water/meth so why do you see people who have huge turbos but run 11s or 12s and aren't even close to reaching the max of that turbos potential

i currently have an e3 with an external wastegate setup and my goal for my car is high 10s to low 11s I know that it is possible to reach this goal but is there a different setup that could let me achieve this easier?

regaurdless of what turbo i end up with i plan on running ethenol and water/meth injection (no nitrous)

I'm trying to better myself with all things boost so any information/opinion would be appreciated

You answered your own question without knowing it. I personally have a full weight 1G AWD weighing around 3200lbs with me in it. It has a 35R on it. Do I think a 16G could put up the same times? Yeah. But I would need to gut the car and add a ton of supporting mods to do so. So yes, to me, it's easier running a bigger turbo if I don't feel like stripping it and putting slicks on there. Of course there are other people who run 12's on a 35R. They can defend themselves.

 

[TSi Kid]

Get some cams in that engine, and switch to e85 before you even think about going bigger.

yeah i know, i'm just trying to do some research before i pick which path i'll end up with
after i get rid of my 16g setup i'm going to go with a twin scroll but i don't know what kind of turbo i want

You answered your own question without knowing it. I personally have a full weight 1G AWD weighing around 3200lbs with me in it. It has a 35R on it. Do I think a 16G could put up the same times? Yeah. But I would need to gut the car and add a ton of supporting mods to do so. So yes, to me, it's easier running a bigger turbo if I don't feel like stripping it and putting slicks on there. Of course there are other people who run 12's on a 35R. They can defend themselves

those are the people that i don't get

I know this is a generic question but besides the 35r, what is another common setup that people run for high 10s low 11s?

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

Another reason to go bigger is its much easier to obtain your goal than having to run the piss out of the car. For instance, to get 400 out of a 16g, you need to run very large amounts of boost, have to run a pretty good tune and run good fuel. I could run my FP3052 at less boost, conservative timing and fuel maps and pump 93 and make that power with ease on the same motor.

 

[untouchablecc]

I have often thought about this i have friends that run the larger turbos hx40s, stuff like that and i tried to figure out why when you can do it on a 16g and the answer is similar to the previous posts. You can make the same power a lot easier with a larger turbo. There is only a hand full of 10 sec 16g cars and even less 10 sec 14b powered cars. If your trying to set a record or just want to be able to say yeah i run 10s on a 16g then thats pretty much the goal. Now if you look at the amount of people running a larger garret or holset you will see a much larger group of people running lower quarter mile times. If you choose to run a smaller turbo you loose streetability as you try to go faster. A ton of weight reduction nitrous a well built engine.

 

[TSi Kid]

I have often thought about this i have friends that run the larger turbos hx40s, stuff like that and i tried to figure out why when you can do it on a 16g and the answer is similar to the previous posts. You can make the same power a lot easier with a larger turbo. There is only a hand full of 10 sec 16g cars and even less 10 sec 14b powered cars. If your trying to set a record or just want to be able to say yeah i run 10s on a 16g then thats pretty much the goal. Now if you look at the amount of people running a larger garret or holset you will see a much larger group of people running lower quarter mile times. If you choose to run a smaller turbo you loose streetability as you try to go faster. A ton of weight reduction nitrous a well built engine.

yeah that makes more sense. especially the streetability part

Another reason to go bigger is its much easier to obtain your goal than having to run the piss out of the car. For instance, to get 400 out of a 16g, you need to run very large amounts of boost, have to run a pretty good tune and run good fuel. I could run my FP3052 at less boost, conservative timing and fuel maps and pump 93 and make that power with ease on the same motor.

correct me if i'm mistaken but doesn't the FP3052 bolt up to stock dsm manifolds?
also how do you like that turbo? i hear a lot of people running 35rs and hx40s but not too many using FP3052 (i know theres a good amount that use them but i've never talked to someone with one)

 

[donniekak]

Another reason to go bigger is its much easier to obtain your goal than having to run the piss out of the car. For instance, to get 400 out of a 16g, you need to run very large amounts of boost, have to run a pretty good tune and run good fuel. I could run my FP3052 at less boost, conservative timing and fuel maps and pump 93 and make that power with ease on the same motor.

A 16g car at 400whp, will run faster times than a larger turbo at the same power though. That is the lure of pushing smaller turbos. The op is going to run e85, so there is no problem running 30 psi out of the 16g. Out here where the temps are 110+ in the summer, i have smoked 35r cars that ran 91 in my fully setup 1g e85/evo3 setup. Not only was my car making a shitton more torque for a comparable horsepower output, but i re-spooled much quicker after shifts.

For anyone who wants 11's i recomend a e85/evo3 setup. The people who run 10's on them aren't typical. But 400whp/450wtq are typical for a decent evo3/e85 setup, which is a beast on the street. Bigger turbo's are better dyno queens on pumpgas, but also need to be pushed to justify the lag, and slower transient response. Don't get me wrong, i have had 35r, and hx40 setups, and when pushed they eat a 16g for lunch. But if i only want 400whp/11's, a evo3/e85 setup is golden.

If you choose to run a smaller turbo you loose streetability as you try to go faster. A ton of weight reduction nitrous a well built engine.

My unhooked wastegate evo3/e85 setup was way more streetable than my larger turbo cars. It was like driving a big block v8, tons of torque, good power, and fell off up top.

 

[TSi Kid]

My unhooked wastegate evo3/e85 setup was way more streetable than my larger turbo cars. It was like driving a big block v8, tons of torque, good power, and fell off up top.

the only worry i have is detonating like rich did
and i know thats a lot less probable with a different turbo thats big but wont spool as quick

 

[donniekak]

the only worry i have is detonating like rich did
and i know thats a lot less probable with a different turbo thats big but wont spool as quick

I looked at rich's sparkplugs, and he wasn't detonating. Something caused the #1 rod to bend. Not sure what, but no aluminum speckles on the plugs. The rod was also twisted, so it probably wasn't perfectly straight to begin with, or had some other small flaw that was exposed at 30+ psi. Thankfully, your rods have already been tested at those levels, extensively.

 

[TSi Kid]

yeah one of the first days i met you i watched you do a 3 car length awd burn out on my future motor
thanks for doing all of the testing

what about a bastard 20g setup?

 

[99gst_racer]

of course there are other people who run 12's on a 35r. They can defend themselves. Rofl

rofl

 

[dsm-onster]

You can't post in here Paul. Your setup smacks all the above (and below) reason in the face

A 16g car at 400whp, will run faster times than a larger turbo at the same power though. That is the lure of pushing smaller turbos. The op is going to run e85, so there is no problem running 30 psi out of the 16g.

My only issue with your point of view is this. And, it's more because of my pet peave of the the seaming foment of late that 'faster spooling turbos yield more power under the curve'. You site examples, but I bet they didn't have enough rpms in their favor. The powerband is about the same width with most turbos in this era (16g comes on earlier and falls off earlier, 35r comes on later and and falls off later). The difference is shifting too early, either because you have to or because thats "the redline". IF the same power under the curve is there and the same power is there, one that shifts less wins. Which would be a larger turbo with **proper** cams. 400whp with gt35r or other +60mm turbo will typically always win a clean 1/4 mile race, because a properly set up 60mm turbo setup shifts less and makes the powerband the same width with less fuss.

So, we all shift from stock red line to 5000ish rpms with a stock gear ratio dsm transmission. Almost ALL 60mm turbos of this modern age spool to FULL song by then. The benefit? As said, thay carry full bost to 8500-9000rpms for most everyone.

But yes, Who builds a gt35r car to take advantage of the full powerband (cams, springs, head flow, intake manifold flow) and doesn't look for more than 400-450whp . . . So I see the real point of your post. And completely concur.

 

[99gst_racer]

Yup, powerband in general is far more important that any peak.

You can't post in here Paul. Your setup smacks all the above (and below) reason in the face

Hopefully the new set-up will smack the previous one in the face. PIC

 

[dsm-onster]

That's having your cake and eating it too . . . very, very fast.

 

[TSi Kid]

Hopefully the new set-up will smack the previous one in the face. PIC

 

[tsi209]

If I may ask you guys. I have a fp3065 and I havent seen many people post there numbers but do you guys think I can hit over the 500awhp goal?? Im just finishing my 2.3 engine with 272 and a built head with all supportin mods? Thanks guys

 

[donniekak]

You can't post in here Paul. Your setup smacks all the above (and below) reason in the face


My only issue with your point of view is this. And, it's more because of my pet peave of the the seaming foment of late that 'faster spooling turbos yield more power under the curve'. You site examples, but I bet they didn't have enough rpms in their favor. The powerband is about the same width with most turbos in this era (16g comes on earlier and falls off earlier, 35r comes on later and and falls off later). The difference is shifting too early, either because you have to or because thats "the redline". IF the same power under the curve is there and the same power is there, one that shifts less wins. Which would be a larger turbo with **proper** cams. 400whp with gt35r or other +60mm turbo will typically always win a clean 1/4 mile race, because a properly set up 60mm turbo setup shifts less and makes the powerband the same width with less fuss.

So, we all shift from stock red line to 5000ish rpms with a stock gear ratio dsm transmission. Almost ALL 60mm turbos of this modern age spool to FULL song by then. The benefit? As said, thay carry full bost to 8500-9000rpms for most everyone.

But yes, Who builds a gt35r car to take advantage of the full powerband (cams, springs, head flow, intake manifold flow) and doesn't look for more than 400-450whp . . . So I see the real point of your post. And completely concur.

My point is that for a 16g to make 400whp, it's making about 450ft/lbs. A 35r car making 400 whp is probably making about 350ft/lbs. Another difference is the speed with which the smaller turbo recovers boost after shifting. That being said, my hx40/e85 galant vr4 was the most fun car i've ever had, when it was in 1 piece. And, even a half assed 35r setup being pushed will kill a 16g. But there are always the big turbo, low boost people i love to smash.

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

Thats a big blanket statement donniekak. You will be wrong as many times as you are right by saying something like that. Lag on a full ball bearing turbo is going to be less than a journal bearing turbo like a 16g. And again on that torque statement, thats assuming that yours is running a nice very aggressive tune and mine is mild. But if i run less boost and run e85 and run an aggressive tune and still make 400hp, who do you think wins then??

You cant make statements like that without a lot of proof to back it up. And the more important thing is the bigger turbo always "wins". MAybe not the race, but wins in the overall scheme of things. Esp if its a good turbo like an hx40 or ball bearing garrett.

If I may ask you guys. I have a fp3065 and I havent seen many people post there numbers but do you guys think I can hit over the 500awhp goal?? Im just finishing my 2.3 engine with 272 and a built head with all supportin mods? Thanks guys

Yes if you have a good tune. PEople have made into and above 600 with that turbo.

 

[donniekak]

Thats a big blanket statement donniekak. You will be wrong as many times as you are right by saying something like that. Lag on a full ball bearing turbo is going to be less than a journal bearing turbo like a 16g. And again on that torque statement, thats assuming that yours is running a nice very aggressive tune and mine is mild. But if i run less boost and run e85 and run an aggressive tune and still make 400hp, who do you think wins then??

You cant make statements like that without a lot of proof to back it up. And the more important thing is the bigger turbo always "wins". MAybe not the race, but wins in the overall scheme of things. Esp if its a good turbo like an hx40 or ball bearing garrett.



Yes if you have a good tune. PEople have made into and above 600 with that turbo.

Believe me i would rather run a 35r than 16g any day. My comparisons have been about how a 16g pushed to the limit can be faster than the typical big turbo 16 psi idiots that always seem to be out there. I've ran 35r, hx40, and a couple medium sized pte turbo's. They were all faster on my car than my 16g setup, But a person only making upper 300's on a large turbo is far from running an optimized setup, and frankly deserves to lose to anyone they race.

As far as sizing, OE's always size turbo's to be as small as possible to reach their power goal. To run a large turbo, and have a somewhat weak horsepower goal, is opening yourself up to be passed up by a smaller, but optimum setup for that power level.