Opinions on FWD vs. AWD

[boostedawd42]

Well I have been looking at buying another talon recently and personally I am a 1g kind of guy. I have always had AWD talons and loved them, but this time I came across one of the cleanest 1g talons I have ever seen. The only problem is that its FWD. Now I have had fast AWD talons and they are fun as hell but this car will never be a dedicated track car so I was wondering if it would be that big of a deal if it was FWD.

I am looking at making some decent power so I would like some first hand experience with people that have had FWD talons with a decent amount of power(around 400-450whp).

 

[DSMDriver69]

FWD=spin
AWD=go

I was FWD for a while because of an issue, and I could be going along at 50-60 and smoke the tires. If I turned the boost way down to like 17, I would pretty much have traction in third if the road was warm and clean. This was when I was still on stock cams and a SMIC at 340fwhp on a dyno dynamics.

The first couple burnouts were fun, but after that it just got old. I did help my fuel mileage though (not being able to even give it 1/3 throttle most of the time), getting 20mpg on fairly short trips on E85. If I was fwd I'd have to go with an automatic, as then you at least have a chance at some traction because of the indirect connection of the engine to the wheels (the torque converter).

what turbo were you running in your FWD?

 

[JAXWHITE1G]

I guess it's all in what you really want in a car. I have driven my 1G FWD from Florida to Colorado and frequently do 500 mile round trip weekends. It isn't just my DD but my primary vehicle, we have an X-Terra with half the miles but gets 17mpg compared to 26. I enjoy the better fuel economy and better highway cruise rpm than my AWD friends and have lost them in the twisty mountains of NC. I have had a totaled donor AWD to convert mine but decided it wasn't what I really wanted. For my needs a FWD is ideal. If it's in as good shape as is stated it should make someone a fun car.

Mike

 

[dsm-onster]

Exactly! I really did love my FWD when i had the small 16g at 18psi and stock longblock. just under 300whp and very nice for trips, mileage, not a total pig in the turns, etc.

 

[jrohner]

what turbo were you running in your FWD?

Evo3 16G. I stated the differences from my current setup.

 

[EclipticalGS]

Yeah for the little time ive been driving..

So far, I have great suspension, Prothane MM's, no lsd, 18" rims with 35z tires.

I have experienced that WOT in first gear there is no point to even try.

I have experienced 2nd gear at WOT as soon as boost hits and i hit maybe 4000 rpms, all i get is wheelspin

So far on the highway, In third gear, I slipped a little but not too much.

This is on a built motor, break-in running 12 psi, e3Big16G

All drives were done on very cold roads, maybe a little wet, also icy.

But the Highway tourqe steer and wheelspin at high speeds kind of makes my heart sink. If i have money an AWD swap is in my to do list.

I would advise good struts and springs, a quaife lsd, prothane MM's, axles, 17" rims MAX., 45-50 tire profile, hopefully drag radials, prothane bushing kit.

That should help some power get to the road

 

[dsm-onster]

Yea. The real dangerous thing is the torque steer. not just a loss of control via loss of traction. Tuning the car, you ahve to get on it of course. If it shoots you into another lane when boost hits, then you can't say you have too much control. This would happen with me after all the suspension mods and LSD install.

 

[pboglio]

AWD can torque steer quite a bit once you start making some real power.

 

[FactoryChrome]

You can also tune by brake boosting if you're not interested in breaking the speed limit or don't have access to a track to tune on.

IMO torque steer is fun... and this can be remedied by installing a driver's side awd axle and carrier.

Yes, the AWD's that are getting whooped by hondas are probably not tuned or set up right... but why? With all the resources we have out there, there's NO excuse for Honda's that make less torque and horse power to be topping out a high boost AWD on the highway. The AWD should be able to win no matter what... but they don't. There are Integras that were boosted that did beat a properly tuned and setup 500+ hp 1g talon on the streets that I've seen. Now, if the Honda guys can do this w/ fwd, why can't the same awd stomping techniques be applied to a fwd DSM? The answer is that they can.

The fact that Joe Bucci has x parts in his car really means nothing. If the AWD could do it better, then what's up? Where are they at? Or are they all just being keyboard jockeys and talking about how it's superior in every way. Steal his 14b record and I'll shut up about it... but until then we can debate fwd vs. awd.

I actually am enjoying reading all the replies in this thread, and should be educational for new people that don't know the ropes so well. Which... btw, where did LiquidX go... he just irked out after adding his few replies and telling me to go read.

 

[nuclearr]

I prefer AWD It is great. When I first got my 90 GSX(RIP) I took a horse shoe turn (about 10 lane widths between the strait legs) at 70 mph with blown suspension. Well I entered it at 70 I would say I didnt drop below 55-60mph. Also was able to stay in my lane. There was also sand on the right outside. At the second turn I could feel the car sarting to slide out. I would never dream of taking this turn at thoses speeds in a FWD or a RWD. I Couldnt even get my sport bikes above 45-50 on this turn.

Only reason I have a gst right now is the fact its a spyder and its going to be converted to an AWD have all the parts in the back yard just no time to do it.

 

[dsm-onster]

IMO torque steer is fun... and this can be remedied by installing a driver's side awd axle and carrier.

nope, when you get to about 350ish whp and enough traction to hook in part of second (not even 1st), you start eating the 1990-1992 fwd axles. Which are the same diameter/spline count as the awd ELHS. You'll need to go to the bigger 1993+ FWD axles, no AWD axles have that increased spline count and enough diameter neccesary. OR cut in half the torque and shock load seen by the shafts with an AWD platform.

Yes, the AWD's that are getting whooped by hondas are probably not tuned or set up right... but why? With all the resources we have out there, there's NO excuse for Honda's that make less torque and horse power to be topping out a high boost AWD on the highway. The AWD should be able to win no matter what... but they don't. There are Integras that were boosted that did beat a properly tuned and setup 500+ hp 1g talon on the streets that I've seen. Now, if the Honda guys can do this w/ fwd, why can't the same awd stomping techniques be applied to a fwd DSM? The answer is that they can.

There IS an excuse. TERRIBLE setups. Cars that arn't properly tuned and/or parts that arn't properly exploited. And that integra probably had more $$$ in suspension mods than the whole AWD shell by far.

The fact that Joe Bucci has x parts in his car really means nothing. If the AWD could do it better, then what's up? Where are they at? Or are they all just being keyboard jockeys and talking about how it's superior in every way. Steal his 14b record and I'll shut up about it... but until then we can debate fwd vs. awd.

Yes a completely stripped FWD car with slicks and completely re-worked suspension points can certainly do just as well or better with that small turbo. Less drive train loss, automatic 300lbs less weight. But put up a beefier turbo and more power in there. Last I heard Kiggly was no where close to some factory chassis AWD cars out there and his whole front suspension is completely foreign to factory and definately not as streetable as a factory AWD chassis.

. . .But then again you still want to bring up the completely track limited FWD cars into the discussion. Have you even seen Bucci's car? He couldn't dive into the 10s with a streetable FWD car. Meanwhile there are those that HAVE put an AWD car into the 10s with just the 16g and drive home in the same car. And several who have a streetable AWD car that have a faster time than Kiggly. Kiggly's car is NOT streetable.

What's possible isn't whats practical.

 

[pboglio]

If FWD were so great, they would be outperforming AWD cars in the WRC. They don't, and in rally have their own class. They are comicly slow in comparison.

Ever see some of these cars equipped for drag racing go down the track? Some of these cars are highly unstable. Who in their right mind is gonna drive around the street with a suspension setup like this, with huge slicks, completely deflated tires, get out and dump VHT traction compound on the ground. Come on already, an AWD car just rolls up and launches any time any where, then go carve up some curves, or a topspeed run. Go ahead and attempt a topspeed run with the same FWD drag racing setup and low front tire pressure. An AWD with active differentials can do a topspeed run with amazing ease.

My point is, the AWD can come to ANY fight prepared. Outlaunching bikes, no problem, matching or at least pacing a bike in the twisties, no problem. Topspeed pulls, no problem, slap the Blizzaks on and drive thru a blizzard, no problem. All these categories the AWD can put you at 9/10's or 10/10's with confidence.

 

[dsm-onster]

Hey, thanx for the the idea, pboglio. It's saturday and snowing nice on the eastern shore VA right now. That's a good idea. If i'm gonna waste the afternoon, I might as well get out to the field and do some snow-nuts . . .

So glad I got rid of my FWD. Welded centar difffs is fuuun!

 

[dsmfa9nutter]

Nothing wrong with fwd. If you have a choice between awd and fwd, take the awd. Fwd drivetrains take less hp to turn, best being fwd manual, worst being awd auto. A beefy tranny, suspension setup (this is EXTREMELY important, people that spin at high power levels don't have their setup right!), good tires, and you're set.

 

[dsm-onster]

I most certainly had my suspension set up properly. I even had lowered the rear joint of my front control arms. Plus LSD, lowered 2.5", Camber set after taking photos of my car to get the contact patch as flat as possible, soft front, stiff rear, drag radials, as much rear weight removed as possible to bearly remain streetable. I could eat the rubber in 3rd gear with the hard hitting hx35.

I just never bothered with the ELHS since I was breaking the same spline count 1990-1992 axles.

 

[EclipticalGS]

I just think my tire selection is pretty crucial. I have 225/35zr18. 37psi tire pressure. The tires are Toyo proxes. Not very grippy at all. All i get is wheelspin, not even wheel hop because my springs an struts are good.

I need some BF goodrich street radials of some sort, ike 245/45/17's would be amazin'

 

[turbo4awd]

400 to 450 fwd better buy dot drag radials

 

[ReYnd]

AWD and FWD are two very different things. It's easier to put the power down with an AWD. The amount of horsepower you're looking at is no joke, and I know I'd spin a FWD senseless trying to get that power to the pavement. But at lower levels of power, FWD isn't a bad option at all. Fuel economy comes to mind. I'll probably have one eventually. Wasn't my first choice because honestly, torque steer scares me a little, and I wanted to be well equipped for the snow. Not to mention that I'm not a huge fan of doing burnouts.

It's your call, but I think I would go for a FWD DD with a lower HP goal if it wouldn't see snow. AWD if it would see snow, and you wanted to get a little silly with the HP. And anyone else chiming in, please remember we're speaking relatively in regard to horsepower. He did say it would be a DD.

 

[wolfie359]

Well I have been looking at buying another talon recently and personally I am a 1g kind of guy. I have always had AWD talons and loved them, but this time I came across one of the cleanest 1g talons I have ever seen. The only problem is that its FWD. Now I have had fast AWD talons and they are fun as hell but this car will never be a dedicated track car so I was wondering if it would be that big of a deal if it was FWD.

I am looking at making some decent power so I would like some first hand experience with people that have had FWD talons with a decent amount of power(around 400-450whp).

If you plan on having more than about 350hp, go with AWD... I wish mine was and I doubt I'm even pushing 300. I get way too much wheel hop as it is.

 

[FactoryChrome]

Wheel hop is an easy fix. If you have junk motor mounts and an improper suspension setup then it serves you right for letting your car wheel hop. You'll bone your trans in no time doing that regularly. My car will just do burn outs because I had stiff motor mounts and suspension that was properly setup.... if I want it to that is.

 

[16vdohcturboawd]

When I bought my laser I had the same problem. I really wanted AWD but just couldnt pass up a one owner car for $750 just because it wasnt AWD. I plan on making 300-320whp and eventually get a quaife, I know im limited due to FWD but AWDs are non existant up here for a reasonable price. They are all either $7000 or cheap but beat to snot by a teenager. I have had an AWD manual, another FWD manual and an auto AWD and I have to say I would take the manual FWD over the auto AWD.

 

[kiggly]

Last I heard Kiggly was no where close to some factory chassis AWD cars out there and his whole front suspension is completely foreign to factory and definately not as streetable as a factory AWD chassis.

I don't know what you mean by some of this, nor do I really care about this discussion, but I want to clear up some misinformation.

My front suspension is as OEM as many street cars. I'm running a factory front subframe with factory control arms, just upgraded springs and struts really. The sway bar is removed.

How many AWD cars are honestly and consistently in the 1.2's for 60' times? None. Lets dump consistently, how many AWD cars have cut more than five honest 1.2x 60' times? I think there is only one (Shep).

Kevin

 

[FactoryChrome]

DAMN SICK BURN!!! Lol...

Ok, now who's gonna argue with the man behind the FWD record?

 

[rEclipserGST]

If 2 similarly powered cars raced, but the difference was that one was FWD and one AWD, then the AWD will win, all the time, its simple, the FWD will not be able to catch up. Remember that the most important of a race is the 60ft. Compare the difference between a mazdaspeed3/cobalt ss(turbo)/srt-4 to a evo 9, similar power output and there is nearly a second difference in the 1/4mile. FWD is WRONG WHEEL, its the reason why 650whp hondas run 10's, and ONLY trap high 120's low 130's.

Really? Why are we comparing a honda to a DSM? It's called Weight to Power Ratio dude. WTF

 

[thewraith]

What kind of tires do you have?
Try a set of slicks and be thankful there's only two axles to break, but traction should improve greatly.

AWD is without a doubt great for all around traction and has its winter weather advantages, but its also disadvantage on the topend.
Nothing sucks worse than if you got passed by a Honduh in a race on the bigend after you creamed him down low. That would be fail at its best.

A FWD has only one axle to break.

 

[99gst_racer]

DAMN SICK BURN!!! Lol...

Ok, now who's gonna argue with the man behind the FWD record?

What's your point? Regardless of Kevin's impressive success with his FWD 1G, this particular thread is about a 400WHP street driven FWD VS AWD. Kevin's tall tired, slicked, wheel bar equipped 1G doesn't really fit into this category.