Opinions on FWD vs. AWD

[boostedawd42]

Well I have been looking at buying another talon recently and personally I am a 1g kind of guy. I have always had AWD talons and loved them, but this time I came across one of the cleanest 1g talons I have ever seen. The only problem is that its FWD. Now I have had fast AWD talons and they are fun as hell but this car will never be a dedicated track car so I was wondering if it would be that big of a deal if it was FWD.

I am looking at making some decent power so I would like some first hand experience with people that have had FWD talons with a decent amount of power(around 400-450whp).

 

[toofast82]

off topic but to jrohner i think you have your timeslip backwards

And he would have had to let off around the 1000' foot mark with the mph,

This is almost like having a thread with "should I get an Evo or STI" in a DSM forum. There's goods and bads about both, but this site is awd biased for the most part so of course majority are going to say get the AWD. FWD and 420A guys seem to get little to no love in here.

 

[jrohner]

I don't have a 1/4 mile time, and it doesn't show 1/8 without 1/4 mile. I thought 99 seconds and 11 mph would be obvious, since even if you misunderstood and swapped the numbers 99mph and 11 seconds wouldn't make sense.

 

[FactoryChrome]

This forum should be called DSMArguers or DSMDisagreers.. I think it's much more fitting of the types of exchanges that go on here 90% of the time .

 

[utah7m3s]

I dont have a high horpower dsm front wheel drive but i have about a 500 whp neon srt 4 thats front wheel drive, and i dont have any real issues driving it. The neons have a quaife differential though. you would probably want to look at gettin one of those or at least a decent lsd. Also in my car i kept breaking motor mounts at that horsepower you would probably want to look at gettin some solid motor mounts or high oerformance ones because fwd cars have a lot more wear and tear on those mounts then awd

 

[ian_maham]

FWD drive is for experienced drivers only. If you want to beat the hell out of a car, get the AWD because at least you don't have to know how to drive to get it to win races.

Wow, that was a ignorant comment.

BUT, I think awd is better for everyday use and street/track. And a little more fun when on back roads that twist quite a bit.

 

[FactoryChrome]

Wow, that was a ignorant comment.

BUT, I think awd is better for everyday use and street/track. And a little more fun when on back roads that twist quite a bit.

I really have had no handling issues w/ my car on the clover leafs or otherwise. Like I said, some people NEED AWD so that they can drive well.

Or the cheap ass DSM crowd needs to spend money in the right places instead of 1600cc injectors, try some suspension bushings and better tires... it's amazing what wonders that will work for your traction problems....

Remember that a 500hp car isn't putting 500 to the ground at 2k rpms... it doesn't happen until later in the RPM range (in most all cases)... If you cannot control your gas pedal very well, then FWD isn't for you because you need to FEEEL the car, not just "Hey bro let's boost WOT to sonic for lunch homework succccckkks..."

Don't let that hurt your witty bitty feelings. If you're one of those people that's fine, you cannot argue with another's opinion... remember that.

 

[pwnzer]

I don't have a 1/4 mile time, and it doesn't show 1/8 without 1/4 mile. I thought 99 seconds and 11 mph would be obvious, since even if you misunderstood and swapped the numbers 99mph and 11 seconds wouldn't make sense.

you are correct sir, I didnt even do the quick math I just saw it.

and I agree that this site is AWD biased, its also 4G63 biased, but it is by far the best DSM site out there. If you want your FWD then get it, there wont be as much love, but something that nice is hard to pass up.

 

[pboglio]

First time I went WOT in AWD in the lower gears was like dropping meth, so to speak. Never experienced that level of acceleration in an FWD. Everything gets put down to the ground right now unless your AWD is making some serious power and the wheels start slipping.

On anything over 300 w.h.p. and a smaller turbo, very much like getting catapaulted off a carrier. That alone is worth it since you "feel" the g's much more instead of just driving fast for kicks. Downside is tranny's hate this level of grip with a passion.

As far as FWD owners needing more skill, please. Try and power-on oversteer an AWD car underboost around a corner, making +400 w.h.p. Then get back to me about driving skills. Some say an AWD DSM can't do this because of the torque split, but it can be done quite easily with enough power.

A spinning FWD would just understeer without mercy since, guess what, you steer and power the same wheels, sucks to be FWD at this point.

In a racing environment I can see the advantage of a light weight FWD where you aren't going to be lighting up the tires with R-compound tires and a good ECU/boost control boost map and standing starts happen only once and the motor is probably detuned from insane levels.

They will pry my AWD cars from my dead cold fingers

 

[eclipsetuner_21]

I have a 350whp 1g FWD. I have a quaife lsd and equal length driveshafts. Traction is definitely a problem. Its fun don't get me wrong, but it does get old when i actually wanna race and don't grip till 3rd if i'm lucky.

 

[FactoryChrome]

My car would break loose in third when boost hit on my small 16g.... if I were too far in the throttle.

PBoglio, I'm not saying all AWD guys are unskilled... but it just really seems like it takes the "guess work" out of driving and a lot of people just don't recognize that or refuse to acknowledge it. That's fine, to each their own. I personally would say FWD for a road course racing car would be great provided the driver knows the car... yes the AWD guy can get away with a bit more, but 350hp vs 350hp in the straights and the FWD is going to start gaining. This really depends on the track as well, whether or not there are any long straights.

 

[toofast82]

I have a 350whp 1g FWD. I have a quaife lsd and equal length driveshafts. Traction is definitely a problem. Its fun don't get me wrong, but it does get old when i actually wanna race and don't grip till 3rd if i'm lucky.

What kind of tires do you have?
Try a set of slicks and be thankful there's only two axles to break, but traction should improve greatly.

AWD is without a doubt great for all around traction and has its winter weather advantages, but its also disadvantage on the topend.
Nothing sucks worse than if you got passed by a Honduh in a race on the bigend after you creamed him down low. That would be fail at its best.

 

[pboglio]

My car would break loose in third when boost hit on my small 16g.... if I were too far in the throttle.

PBoglio, I'm not saying all AWD guys are unskilled... but it just really seems like it takes the "guess work" out of driving and a lot of people just don't recognize that or refuse to acknowledge it. That's fine, to each their own. I personally would say FWD for a road course racing car would be great provided the driver knows the car... yes the AWD guy can get away with a bit more, but 350hp vs 350hp in the straights and the FWD is going to start gaining. This really depends on the track as well, whether or not there are any long straights.

The Archer Brothers kicked some major ass running FWD DSM's. That alone tells me the potential. If memory serves, they were absolutely crushing cars with an AWD DSM, then they were getting hit with weight penalties to even things up a bit in terms of AWD advantage. Then they said screw it and campaigned the FWD DSM and still kicked ass. Story went something like that or the AWD was simply banned outright, forget which.

However, they weren't running much more the 250 h.p. and with their superior driving skills, were laying waste to bigger and badder rides. RRE also had a FWD terror, think it was a mirage with an FP3076 just freaking lapping other cars. But if you read the article it was just a hairy ride and would have been TONS faster with AWD, which is what they pretty much admitted.

The problem with matching h.p. to h.p. is that simply, no cars on the street will ever really be limited in h.p. and there are simply no rules. The guy bringing the longest, biggest stick wins. My big stick is AWD, where I can simply crush cars in the corners where they are afraid to push it. Its that advantage on the street where things aren't perfect where it shines, not so much a roadcourse.
And frankly, with the launching advantage you will simply demoralize your opponents if they even attempt a run from a dig.

 

[dsm-onster]

Ok factorychrome, so you can at least admit that, driver skill employed or not, AWD has the advantage in a drag race scenerio. . .right?

There's nothing cheap about going through transmissions because you have traction. And it's not cheap dsmers who build successful AWD cars. Maybe this thread (not forum) should be lets see how we can stereotype as many different folks as possible .

Really. Yes, a FWD car is fine with a skilled driver in the twisties. Straight line out of the corner? No how, no way; even coming out of a turn. My FWD needed pedal finess with the same setup where my AWD did not coming otu of the turn. OIW, I had more pedal down with the same setup under the hood with the AWD than the FWD. I came up to speeds before the next turn better and oh BTW was able to power through the turns better too (RWD is half of AWD). Nope, I'm not as skilled as many. But lets stay on topic. We're talking cars here not drivers. And the AWD car simply has superior traction. And traction is the actual aspect used to propel your car.

 

[RACESTAR4G63]

my boy brad brooks tune that one

 

[FactoryChrome]

I'm definitely not saying that one is hands down better than the other in all situations.... but I've been to a LOT of street races in Texas where the honda boys were just mopping the floor with the AWD dsm guys... even the DSM's that had larger turbos. I HATE to see that happen, I want the DSM's to win... but it just goes to show you that with the right setup, fwd is great. Nobody can argue that.

AWD is great too, I'd love to own one... but I will never get rid of my FWD for any reason because it's fun to drive. Also... when peoples' eyes are like because you broke the tires loose going 60mph on the freeway just getting into it in 3rd gear.

 

[Never Satisfied]

The car in that video looks like it has adjustable air shocks on the back. It's a trick alot of FWD drag racers have used for quite some time. That is why the back end sits so high. Usually, putting about 90 psi in the rear shocks will keep the car from squating back. Combine that with sticky front tires with lower pressure in them and you can turn some decent times with a FWD.

 

[dsm-onster]

Honda bois beating dsms in street races when dsms have decent sized turbos means dsms were poorly tuned, not pushed (boost), not properly setup under the hood (improper support). Sorry. But I don't take random street racing losses seriously. If these hondas can run 10s (PROOF is required), then the respect for FWD will improve. I'll bet most of these are roll races. NO professional form of racing employs starting from a roll except endurance racing.

Regardless, just because the honduhs were FWD has no bearing on whether FWD is even remotely cost effective or requires remotely the same skillset in prepping the car for a race. There's thousands of dollars more that goes in a FWD chassis to cause it to even hold it's own against an awd chassis when the power to the wheels is the same.

 

[JEFFREYCASTGSX]

I'm definitely not saying that one is hands down better than the other in all situations.... but I've been to a LOT of street races in Texas where the honda boys were just mopping the floor with the AWD dsm guys... even the DSM's that had larger turbos. I HATE to see that happen, I want the DSM's to win... but it just goes to show you that with the right setup, fwd is great. Nobody can argue that.

AWD is great too, I'd love to own one... but I will never get rid of my FWD for any reason because it's fun to drive. Also... when peoples' eyes are like because you broke the tires loose going 60mph on the freeway just getting into it in 3rd gear.

Honda bois beating dsms in street races when dsms have decent sized turbos means dsms were poorly tuned, not pushed (boost), not properly setup under the hood (improper support). Sorry. But I don't take random street racing losses seriously. If these hondas can run 10s (PROOF is required), then the respect for FWD will improve. I'll bet most of these are roll races. NO professional form of racing employs starting from a roll except endurance racing.

Regardless, just because the honduhs were FWD has no bearing on whether FWD is even remotely cost effective or requires remotely the same skillset in prepping the car for a race. There's thousands of dollars more that goes in a FWD chassis to cause it to even hold it's own against an awd chassis when the power to the wheels is the same.

If 2 similarly powered cars raced, but the difference was that one was FWD and one AWD, then the AWD will win, all the time, its simple, the FWD will not be able to catch up. Remember that the most important of a race is the 60ft. Compare the difference between a mazdaspeed3/cobalt ss(turbo)/srt-4 to a evo 9, similar power output and there is nearly a second difference in the 1/4mile. FWD is WRONG WHEEL, its the reason why 650whp hondas run 10's, and ONLY trap high 120's low 130's.

 

[tkelly27]

Ok factorychrome, so you can at least admit that, driver skill employed or not, AWD has the advantage in a drag race scenerio. . .right?

There's a lot more that goes into it than that. Bucci still has the 14b and s16g record with fwd. AWD's haven't even broken into the 10's with a 14b. So, two similarly powered cars (at the limit of the 14b) and the fwd is almost a second faster in the 1/4 and has been for years.

On a street drag race? Again, maybe. Stoplight to stoplight, awd will probably win, but up to 150? The fwd will start to catch up at some point. That's assuming the awd driver doesn't bog the launch.

If you're spinning that badly in fwd, you should take a closer look at your suspension, boost control, tires, and launching techniques. Near awd 60ft times can be cut with a good setup and a good driver.

There are some really good parts about having fwd in a street car too. As you can see, most people don't like them, so you get parts for dirt cheap. There is no transfer case, rear differential, or rear axles to break. You can run different tires on the front and the back, and if you have a blow out, you can buy just one tire (I know you can do this with awd, but it's not advised). When your DSM breaks down, you can just tow it, no screwing with the drive train or getting a flatbed.

I have an awd, but for me that's the only reason to own a dsm. If I want to drive the fronts I have the $150 turbo omni to drive.

 

[dsm-onster]

yes there is more to it than that. If bucci applied his FWD techniques to an AWD platform he would have better FWD traction in an AWD platform plus the light weight he used and have an even better ET. We're not talking all the tricks. We're talking all the benefits.

Take a look at boost control? You mean ruin your power under the curve for 1st through part of 3rd.

 

[tkelly27]

We're talking all the benefits.

FWD: Cost, weight, reliability, and efficiency

AWD: Traction

 

[dsm-onster]

Cost goes to the AWD. Remember all you have to put into a FWD to get it to have some symblance of traction.

Reliability? Hey, toofast82, 'be thankful you have only two axles to break' is what you said, right? Well, I'd rather divide the shock load and torque between FOUR axles. Thanx

So it comes down to efficiency vs. traction.

Some of you seam to think that Buccis FWD car is remotely a street machine. How many street driven AWD cars are there that have net the same time?

 

[xhackerekx]

FWD for people with heavy foot

 

[tkelly27]

Cost goes to the AWD. Remember all you have to put into a FWD to get it to have some symblance of traction.

Reliability? Hey, toofast82, 'be thankful you have only two axles to break' is what you said, right? Well, I'd rather divide the shock load and torque between FOUR axles. Thanx

So it comes down to efficiency vs. traction.

Some of you seam to think that Buccis FWD car is remotely a street machine. How many street driven AWD cars are there that have net the same time?

I will give you that a LSD is spendy for a fwd, but there is only that one and two axles.

More people break 3 bolt axles than fwd ones. fwd can't lock up a transfer case, has no viscous coupling to ruin, no carrier bearings to go out on the rear driveshaft, etc.

You're also putting more shock load into the transmission gears, which is why people can't keep awd transmissions together. As you launch the load is transferred to the rear end. Before the VC can respond, the damage is done. fwd wins as far as reliability.

The suspension cost that you put into a fwd you should also put in an awd for drag racing or auto-x, so I'd count that the same.

Those awd cars are either almost just as stripped with 100hp more, or real street cars with an extra 200-300hp. Most people don't bother because they have the awd option, so there isn't anything to compare it to. There are also awd cars with 500whp that can't get out of the 11's.

 

[dsm-onster]

This is so silly. The suspension mods you need to apply to FWD you need to apply to AWD, yes. But I still have twice as much contact patch, divide power between four axles and able to use weight transfer to my advantage.

IF you have enough power to break an awd tranny and you get enough traction to out of a FWD platform, you still will break your FWD tranny. The reliability point is silly. I can just make the boost progressive like you do to keep traction and save my AWD tranny from shock load. BUT i have the OPTION of beafing it up and using the full power curve. Slicks, a Kaaz, and $2.5K in suspension work vs. AWD with the same suspension mods and drag radials. Now BOTH break transmissions. But after we both buy 3K transmissions, I still have twice as much contact patch, divide power between four axles and able to use weight transfer to my advantage. BTW drag radials are much more street worthy.

And 4bolt rears are in AT LEAST 80% of the DSMs already out there (1993-1999). Finding a 4bolt rear is less of a headache than a FWD with decent traction and sending ALL power to just TWO axles. I've broken 5 axles with my FWD at powerlevels that a 3bolt rear, not 4bolts, can handle.But with AWD I now have twice as much contact patch, divide power between four axles and able to use weight transfer to my advantage.

. . . Is this debate silly or what?