FWD vs. AWD

[mifirefghtr4g63]

Ok now I searched for this and couldn't find my answer. So I am apologizing in advance if this is not the right place to post. Anyway I am selling the SS and looking for a 4g63. I want a awd but I have found a really nice fwd tsi close by. I won't have the SS for much longer so I need a car. Now I obviously know a stock awd will beat a stock fwd cause they launch way better. I am wondering though if it is possible to build a decently fast fwd and run in the 13's or should I just wait longer for a awd. Money wise what would be a cheaper bet to run 13's?

 

[nothingfiction]

My engine may be weak but its a lot better than when it was stock.

and you get the inserts to stiffen your engine mounts (just as you use inserts to stiffen your transmission shift mounts). Cut out the slop and hop of your suspension one piece at a time. Maybe it's not much for a 4g63 but i bet motor mount inserts would do a 4g63 some good too no matter what amount of HP your pushing.

 

[dcmarf]

we are talking about 350+ horses here buddy the guy wants to run 13s -so yes he will get wheel hop your inserts will not stop it with that horsepower so what is your point ???????

 

[mifirefghtr4g63]

How is stiffening your engine to the frame going to prevent wheel hop. Am I missing something here

 

[dcmarf]

no your not missing anything -fiction doesnt know what hes talking about -he doesnt have any horsepower to get wheel hop and he put in motor mount inserts ????Why I dont know -

 

[snowborder714]

Quit the pointless arguing about wheel hop. I've put down a mid-13 second time slip, guessing around 300hp (small 16g), and no wheel hop. If he wants to run a 13 second FWD car, it is very possible and not hard to do, and eliminating wheel hop is very easy. Ever see solid front/rear motor mounts? They'll get rid of any wheel hop you can think of for a 13 second car.

 

[BIRDCLAWTSi]

How is stiffening your engine to the frame going to prevent wheel hop. Am I missing something here

Your axels go into your transmission, Which is bolted to your engine, Which is mounted to your sub rame, Which also has bushings. Bad or weak motor/tranny mounts allow your engine/tranny to move around alot. All the bushings in your suspension are important for traction, Control arm, Sway bar, Etc...

 

[mifirefghtr4g63]

How bout a 12 sec though

 

[snowborder714]

I would say worry about hitting 13's before you worry about 12's (as the thread description describes at the top of the page).

 

[91stocker]

Stick it out for the awd and pull sub 2 second 60's. It will put a grin on your face everytime haha.

 

[Thomas91169]

we are talking about 350+ horses here buddy the guy wants to run 13s -so yes he will get wheel hop your inserts will not stop it with that horsepower so what is your point ???????

if youre still getting hop with more hp, you need to be looking at your tire situation, even on a non-lsd equipped car. stop trying to race 300+fwhp on cooper trendsetters.

back in the day inserts were more than enough to stop hop, even guys running cheapo toyo proxes with 56trim setups and easily putting down 400-450fwhp.

How is stiffening your engine to the frame going to prevent wheel hop. Am I missing something here

search is your friend.

And you'll have to spend quite a lot of money and time to make a reliable engine that can produce 350HP.

if thats what you think then you are doing something wrong.

the engine given to us is already reliable as shit, even in the 450-500awhp range. Anything past 400whp it becomes a tuning issue, and the farther you go into 400's and 500's the more important it is to have a great tune. I do believe the record is 612awhp on a stock 4g63 from the oil pan to the valve cover. daily driveable? i dont see why not, unless you drive around and rag on the car for minutes at a time doing back to back pulls like its going out of style. However im sure most at that level would know how to draw it back to 500ish for daily driver levels and dial it up when necessary......

 

[mifirefghtr4g63]

How bout a 12 sec though

this was just a joke to be a ass. Btw found a very clean 98 tsi awd in texas

 

[nothingfiction]

Wow. All you motorheads and only two of you (Snowborder and Thomas) know what the hell you're talking about. Calling me the noob and you guys don't see the point of motor mount inserts? Why don't you drive your carbon fiber hoods without hood pins while your at it. Freakin' Noobs. Bet ya don't see a point to those either.

 

[jacobevan611]

i do all my "spirited" driving on either the freeway or fun twisty drives.

AWD was not necessary, nor does the Spyder come with a factory AWD system, and nothing beats blasting through some canyon twisties with the top down and Tool blaring. Thus my choice. Though ive had two 1g AWD's to play with, i like the 2gB Spyder better.

Id stick with AWD if you do alot of 1/4mi racing. Its going to hinder you if you play on freeways though.....

After almost getting wiped out at the track by some pos chevelle rustbucket in my 03 Cobra, i wont be going back. Not worth it. $50 for 3 runs and 2hr waits between each only to drive a mere 1320' in 12 seconds? *yawn*. Id rather spend $50 in gas and go for a nice 4-5hr drive down hwy49 or up and down Mt Hamilton or just blast to the beach and cruise hwy1 along the coast.



In the end though, AWD vs FWD is based on what you want out of the car.

mt. hamilton take forever.

 

[Thomas91169]

mt. hamilton take forever.

nah, took us about 3hrs going up the valley side and down the valley side, though that was in my 03 Cobra, and only slowing down to avoid overheating. stopped for about 20min for the Lick Observatory tour. Just took the gf's jetta up there because she wanted to "take a long drive with just us to somewhere with a great view" and it took us about 5hrs to drive up the valley side, visit the observatory up there, spend about 20-30min just admiring the view, then down the bay side, hop onto 680 (stopped at h00ters for dinner) and then back home (minus the h00ters stop in that time). wasnt even attacking the corners either.

i got up to Lake Tahoe in 2hrs30min taking hwy 88/89, attacking every corner i could.

as you can tell, i enjoy making turns and scenery, so fwd is not a hindrance to me, and awd wouldnt be that beneficial unless im trying to power out of an insane hairpin with 600whp, in which case thats just stupid as there are ways to limit output for just those circumstances that wont arise for 99.9% of my driving.

 

[thomcasey]

Checkout your local Detroit metro craigslist, I'm sure you'll find an awd. If it where me I'd get the fwd and before snow falls buy a cheap 4x4 truck preferably the ranger's they go very cheap.

I'm from Michigan I would never drive either one during winter.

I miss those michigan winter's walking about a mile to school, during a level 3 snow up to my butthole. Oh, wait a minute no I don't it sucked.

Never had a problem getting around in my 92 AWD during 14" snows with unplowed roads. They run just fine in the powder.

no your not missing anything -fiction doesnt know what hes talking about -he doesnt have any horsepower to get wheel hop and he put in motor mount inserts ????Why I dont know -

Ummm, nothing fiction is a SHE, not a he. I have seen wheel hop in my old Sprint turbo, that is at 70hp, it is possible in any car.

 

[monster758]

Just so everyone here shuts the EFF up about fwd being hard to make fast 1320 times there are members on utdsm.org who are into the 10s and some even into the 9's and guess what all on FWD!!! Want some names? Casey Gavin Kim those are some of the most known on the forum. Hell its even all over youtube and Kim has her own website GirlinTheBlackCar.com (her's is AWD tho) and for everyone that says motormounts are usless..stand up right now and just give yourself a few good punches in the effing balls! you dont deserve to even look at a car.
DUECES!!

 

[nothingfiction]

no your not missing anything -fiction doesnt know what hes talking about -he doesnt have any horsepower to get wheel hop and he put in motor mount inserts ????Why I dont know -

Ummm, nothing fiction is a SHE, not a he. I have seen wheel hop in my old Sprint turbo, that is at 70hp, it is possible in any car.

Thank you ThomCasey

and when i first got my 420a 120hp car bone stock it had such terrible wheel hop i couldn't stand it. Just driving home from the port i knew what my first three mods would be.

1: a car alarm that doesn't suck (all oem alarms blow)
2: different seats (those oem ones i was sliding all over the place. and literally bruised my pelvis because i slid that much i could have got off with the stick if it didnt bruise me so bad)
3: something to kill wheelhop... so i got online and found out all about motor mount inserts.

That is pretty much what got me into modification at all. those 3 things right there. then it just grew.

 

[_Madman_]

if thats what you think then you are doing something wrong.

the engine given to us is already reliable as shit, even in the 450-500awhp range. Anything past 400whp it becomes a tuning issue, and the farther you go into 400's and 500's the more important it is to have a great tune. I do believe the record is 612awhp on a stock 4g63 from the oil pan to the valve cover. daily driveable? i dont see why not, unless you drive around and rag on the car for minutes at a time doing back to back pulls like its going out of style. However im sure most at that level would know how to draw it back to 500ish for daily driver levels and dial it up when necessary......

Do you run 612awhp on stock internals reliably? I bet no.

I've seen plenty of guys rushing to crank the HP up real fast, real cheap. Most of the cars are on sale or resold. Reasons: crankwalk/timing belt failure/blown headgaskets/cracked blocks/3 or 4 replaced trannies/cooked clutches.

Let's count what you need to build a reliable car (parts alone):
Timing belt+others:200$
Oil changes: 50$
Crankwalk fix: 200$-300$ (90% of the car's I've seen had it, my car including)
Thermostat (better safe than sorry): 30$

Parts to hold 350hp reliably:
Clutch kit: 300$
Downpipe+catback: 500$
Intake piping + cone: 300$
Turbo + install kit: 600$
Injectors: 200$
BOV: 100$
MBC/EBC: 50$
Polly mounts: 50$
Gauges: 300$
Data logger + ECU/SAFC: 100$ - 500$
FPR: 200$
Walbro 255: 100$
Mitsu metalic HG: 50$
ARP head studs: 100$
Wideband O2 + controller: 150$-300$
Gearbox rebuild: 1000$

Optional parts:
Cams: 400$
LW flywheel: 200$
Lifters: 100$
O2 housing: 100$
Exhaust mani: 300$
Polly bushings: 200$
Coilovers: 300$
Intercooler: 500$

For more HP:
Forged pistons/rods: lots of $

+ labor on all those parts.

This is what it takes to make a reliable car that you can somewhat rely on.

Go cheap and expect that most parts will break and probably will cost you even more down the line. Blown turbine parts inside combustion chamber, cracked block, manifolds, shredded gearbox, cracked/warped heads, valves + pistons, bent rods.

 

[idkiliketurbos]

My first dsm was a 98 tsi awd, sold that then bought a 97 gst. For a DD i honestly would rather have FWD seeing as I don't launch when driving around town. I drove my AWD in the winter with near bald rear tires and Riken raptor z's in the front and it was better than i actually expected it to be which wasn't near anything. Like stated earlier, when racing and taking off from a stop, if you don't mash your right foot you won't roast the tires. With that said its really just what your looking to do with the car mostly, DD or race?

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

Thank you ThomCasey

and when i first got my 420a 120hp car bone stock it had such terrible wheel hop i couldn't stand it. Just driving home from the port i knew what my first three mods would be.

1: a car alarm that doesn't suck (all oem alarms blow)
2: different seats (those oem ones i was sliding all over the place. and literally bruised my pelvis because i slid that much i could have got off with the stick if it didnt bruise me so bad)
3: something to kill wheelhop... so i got online and found out all about motor mount inserts.

That is pretty much what got me into modification at all. those 3 things right there. then it just grew.

God, you get defensive with your car these days don't ya? ;3 Chill.. let the noobs talk and the real wrenchers walk.

It's already been stated several times what the advantages and disadvantages are. There are countless ways to spend your money and make an AWD better than an opposing FWD... or a FWD better than an opposing AWD. In the end.. yes.. it all depends on what you PLAN ON DOING WITH THE CAR.

When it comes down to it. The factor isn't AWD V FWD.

It's Driver V AWD or Driver V FWD

 

[SirB00stAl0t]

Ok now I searched for this and couldn't find my answer. So I am apologizing in advance if this is not the right place to post. Anyway I am selling the SS and looking for a 4g63. I want a awd but I have found a really nice fwd tsi close by. I won't have the SS for much longer so I need a car. Now I obviously know a stock awd will beat a stock fwd cause they launch way better. I am wondering though if it is possible to build a decently fast fwd and run in the 13's or should I just wait longer for a awd. Money wise what would be a cheaper bet to run 13's?

i thought the same thing when i built my old GST, but i personally hated it forget hooking up in the rain or first/second gear i would hold out for a decent awd

 

[Thomas91169]

Do you run 612awhp on stock internals reliably? I bet no.

No, but i was quoting you saying:

And you'll have to spend quite a lot of money and time to make a reliable engine that can produce 350HP.

Not 612whp. I used that as an example that the ENGINE ITSELF was still reliable at that point on stock internals. Its amazing what you can do with even pump gas and a little meth, let alone e85, however i think that example was still running pump gas.

350whp reliably is freaking easy, and doesnt cost much at all. I think i spent around $3k on my evo16g setup+support on my 97 Spyder, but its not like i plunked $3k down all at once. I built up the fuel system, ran safcII/pocketlogger on a palm for a bit, then sold that for DSMlink. Built my own FMIC kit with an ebay core, a tried and true method.

Hell id be happy with 250-275fwhp (up to 350 crank) on the 14b i currently have, and i have $0 invested yet (got it for free). I could throw on a boost controller, 190 pump, install a meth system (so i dont need a fmic), and get link and have at it. Think this is the best route on a DD, id use a dual stage mbc and run stock boost level and switch to high (15-17ish psi) when necessary and would make the necessary changes with DSMlink to accomodate this. Dont want a FMIC because i always had cooling issues with a FMIC blocking the entire radiator inlet, even with additional mods to alleviate this in the past.

 

[dsm-onster]

Just so everyone here shuts the EFF up about fwd being hard to make fast 1320 times there are members on utdsm.org who are into the 10s and some even into the 9's and guess what all on FWD!!!

It is MUCH easier with 4 wheels vs. the 2 up front and have a very street friendly machine. I don't think anyone said it's not possible. . .

 

[kawgomoo]

theres no reason to buy a dsm thats not awd. its one of the few with the option. get the awd.

fwd is for hondas

 

[XiKeiyaZI]

theres no reason to buy a dsm thats not awd. its one of the few with the option. get the awd.

fwd is for hondas

And that's where Ricers are separated from the rest.