Looking for 4g64/g4cs answers? LOOK HERE!!

[laggin3]

I see you didnt read the link I posted.

 

[JiveMasterT]

I see you didnt read the link I posted.

i didnt realize there was so much in there. my bad.

 

[insanewayne]

I have a ? You guys talk about a long rod option on the 1st page. How does a longer rod = a higher revving engine ?

If you use the stock rod length for the build, you get a Rod to Stoke Ratio of 1.5.
The stock rod to stroke ratio on our 4g63 is 1.7....which is very favorable. I'm not going to get all into R/S ratios, you can search for that, but in short, the higher the ratio, the less sideload. There's also a minor increase in BDC and TDC dwell time, allowing for better cylinder filling.

This allows the engine to rev higher (and rev faster) without as much wear and stress.

Read up on the 2.1 destoked engine....I am planning on seeing what I can get for displacemnt out of one these hoping to be able to pull 2.2 out of her...I want the 2.4 stroker....BIG turbo...YUM....But I love the R/S on the 2.1; 1.84...which loves 10K revs.

Wayne

 

[jab-619]

WOW 10K RPM DSM Would be the $h!t.Whats the R/S on the 2.0?

 

[insanewayne]

That's stated in the above post.

And yeh, a Ten grand red line would be the shit........As long as you have a dogbox and the gearing for it....and the valvetrain as well.....It would be a very high cost project, for a very high output engine.

 

[laggin3]

Fourth gear in the Dogmission will do 170 mph.

 

[insanewayne]

There yeh go, so ya need the dogbox in other words sorry.

 

[eyebrowski]

This thread has a lot of good info in it let's keep it on topic.

 

[DSMraver]

About the piston squirters in a 2.4l, they are a *bad* idea.

The forged pistons you will use in this build-up are designed to expand a certain amount to work properly. They don't "need" to be cooled like the stock ones do, as they are *designed* to take more heat, and are sized appropriately.

Think about this, it's also more oil on your rotating assembly, which is a bad thing, think about why people use crank scrapers and knife-edged cranks; In order to keep oil *off* the rotating assy.

FWIW, I'm not running them on my 2.4l Long Rod motor, by choice.

If someone can show me a real reason *to* use them, I'll shut up, but until then...

 

[anubis]

this is a long post, but i'm looking for some accurate, solid information and advice.

this thread has seemed to draw a lot of attention from people who know they're stuff when it comes to stroking the 4g63 or swapping in a g4cs/4g64 bottom end. i've been on the forums for quite some time during the past few days trying to soak up as much information as possible about this topic. i have decided that i want to do something like this with my non-turbo laser. i haven't found anything about this except on
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12064&highlight=stroker
which talks about the all motor alternative for non-turbo dsm performance. it seems that on that thread most of it is all talk and no action. however, i gathered that a few of you on this thread have done this work.

i want some advice. but before anyone gets all fired up about it being a waste of time because it's not turbo charged, please just entertain my idea. for now, i am SERIOUSLY considering doing this. i believe i have most of the supporting mods or will have them soon and my engine is out of the car and in pieces and ready to be built.

let me begin with my parts list.

what i have:
k&n filter, hacked maf, solid intake pipe
ngk irridium plugs, 10mm wires
full 2.5" exhaust system with header and cat eliminated
underdriven pulleys and aluminum crank pulley
adjustable cam gears
turbo cams

what's on the way:
stage 1 port/polish head
balance shaft eliminator kit
ported intake
want to port the header to match the new port job

what i will get:
stock turbo injectors (i believe i need a resistor pack from the turbo too)
stock turbo fuel pump
fuel pressure regulator
high flow fuel rail
safc2 and pocketlogger stuff

what i need to stroke:
6bolt crank
some block work
pistons
? ? ? ? ?

i don't want to do a bottom end swap. i'm familiar with the 4g63 engine and have all ready spent a lot of money on parts for it. now for the questions:
what else would i need for the stroker kit?
what other supporting modifications would i need to do to make this work?
which crank should i get?
what is a recommended compression ratio?
what pistons should i get (with CR in mind)?
will my ecu suffice?

keep in mind, i do not have any plans to turbo charge this car and do not want to, and cost is a factor in this project. if you want to laugh at me or call me a sissy for not having a turbo, keep it off this thread. i don't see why this project wouldn't work and make me some significant torque and HP gains. i welcome and appreciate any answers, suggestions, and advice. if you have constructive criticism or civilized discouragement, i will welcome that too. but, like i said, if you want to be rude or slam me or call me names, send me an email or a private message.

thanks in advance.

 

[peregrine]

this is a long post, but i'm looking for some accurate, solid information and advice.

this thread has seemed to draw a lot of attention from people who know they're stuff when it comes to stroking the 4g63 or swapping in a g4cs/4g64 bottom end. i've been on the forums for quite some time during the past few days trying to soak up as much information as possible about this topic. i have decided that i want to do something like this with my non-turbo laser. i haven't found anything about this except on
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12064&highlight=stroker
which talks about the all motor alternative for non-turbo dsm performance. it seems that on that thread most of it is all talk and no action. however, i gathered that a few of you on this thread have done this work.

i want some advice. but before anyone gets all fired up about it being a waste of time because it's not turbo charged, please just entertain my idea. for now, i am SERIOUSLY considering doing this. i believe i have most of the supporting mods or will have them soon and my engine is out of the car and in pieces and ready to be built.

let me begin with my parts list.

what i have:
k&n filter, hacked maf, solid intake pipe
ngk irridium plugs, 10mm wires
full 2.5" exhaust system with header and cat eliminated
underdriven pulleys and aluminum crank pulley
adjustable cam gears
turbo cams

what's on the way:
stage 1 port/polish head
balance shaft eliminator kit
ported intake
want to port the header to match the new port job

what i will get:
stock turbo injectors (i believe i need a resistor pack from the turbo too)
stock turbo fuel pump
fuel pressure regulator
high flow fuel rail
safc2 and pocketlogger stuff

what i need to stroke:
6bolt crank
some block work
pistons
? ? ? ? ?

i don't want to do a bottom end swap. i'm familiar with the 4g63 engine and have all ready spent a lot of money on parts for it. now for the questions:
what else would i need for the stroker kit?
what other supporting modifications would i need to do to make this work?
which crank should i get?
what is a recommended compression ratio?
what pistons should i get (with CR in mind)?
will my ecu suffice?

keep in mind, i do not have any plans to turbo charge this car and do not want to, and cost is a factor in this project. if you want to laugh at me or call me a sissy for not having a turbo, keep it off this thread. i don't see why this project wouldn't work and make me some significant torque and HP gains. i welcome and appreciate any answers, suggestions, and advice. if you have constructive criticism or civilized discouragement, i will welcome that too. but, like i said, if you want to be rude or slam me or call me names, send me an email or a private message.

thanks in advance.

if you want to go higgher compression just buy the stock rods and pistons out of a g4cs motor. it will net you about 12to1 compression. i have the set from my motor in my storage. id sell you the set for $100. its the six bolt 1g big rods too. PM me if your interested.

 

[1fastlaser]

you will need the g4cs crank,and have to machine for clearance,plus i would go with a 10.0:1 compression piston or alittle higher,there gonna have to be custom made.

the g4cs is the same as the 4g63 block...its just 6mm taller and has a bigger bore.everything else is the same.I just got a g4cs built

 

[Suparata]

About the piston squirters in a 2.4l, they are a *bad* idea.

The forged pistons you will use in this build-up are designed to expand a certain amount to work properly. They don't "need" to be cooled like the stock ones do, as they are *designed* to take more heat, and are sized appropriately.

Think about this, it's also more oil on your rotating assembly, which is a bad thing, think about why people use crank scrapers and knife-edged cranks; In order to keep oil *off* the rotating assy.

FWIW, I'm not running them on my 2.4l Long Rod motor, by choice.

If someone can show me a real reason *to* use them, I'll shut up, but until then...

We all need to use words like “I think”, “I believe” and others like these more often.
You THINK squirters are a bad idea but you don’t KNOW that.

Just because a forged piston will take more abuse than cast pistons, it does not mean that they will not benefit from the extra oil available from the squirters. Squirters are not just “piston coolers”. They provide oil in vital places where even more oil is needed than it was in stock form.

As far as more oil on the crankshaft I believe the crank “takes care of itself” by spinning fast enough. Knife-edging the crank is not done to “keep the oil off and crank scrapers are a waste of time in my opinion.
Bottom line I have yet to “see” significant gains from “less” oil, however I’ve seen what insufficient oil to the pin can do especially on “full-floaters”. And aftermarket rods need more oil and supply less both to the pin and cylinder walls.
Not to mention the fact that the oil from the squirters is “free” after all since the oil system on a 4G63 acts like an “on-off” switch. Therefore the oil jets also help “relieve” the extra oil pressure that is present at high RPM.
That’s what I think.

 

[MNGSX]

IMHO they designed the pump with feeding squirters high volume at high RPM from the begining.

Also more oil flowing thru the cooler helps too.

 

[huafist]

if you want to go higgher compression just buy the stock rods and pistons out of a g4cs motor. it will net you about 12to1 compression. i have the set from my motor in my storage. id sell you the set for $100. its the six bolt 1g big rods too. PM me if your interested.

ummm... if he's building a stroker, he can't do this? The deck height is 6mm less on the G63, he'll need "stroker" pistons with the wrist pin moved up 6mm.

 

[anubis]

thanks for the replies so far. before i ask for more, i would like to ask the moderator if i should move my post to a different forum and if so, where to?

 

[anubis]

i forgot to mention that i'm looking at a crank from a g64b which is a 2.4L galant. will this crank work and will it be a good choice? or should i find and use a crank from a g4cs instead? finally, will all of the fuel modifications be necessary right away for this motor to function at a reasonable level, or can i wait and upgrade the fuel system later?

 

[peregrine]

ummm... if he's building a stroker, he can't do this? The deck height is 6mm less on the G63, he'll need "stroker" pistons with the wrist pin moved up 6mm.

yeah if he wants to go low compression for boost. hes wanting to go all motor.

 

[laggin3]

yeah if he wants to go low compression for boost. hes wanting to go all motor.

That has absolutely no bearing whatsoever. The pin location has to be moved if he is using a 63 block. Plain and simple. In the G4cs, he wont have to worry about it.

 

[huafist]

yeah if he wants to go low compression for boost. hes wanting to go all motor.

Shouldn't make any difference - if he doesn't compensate for the missing 6mm of deck height, the piston will clear the deck at the top of the stroke and enter the combustion chamber 6mm.

 

[peregrine]

ah. i see. i was told different. but it makes sense if you think about it. learn something new everyday

 

[DSMraver]

We all need to use words like “I think”, “I believe” and others like these more often.
You THINK squirters are a bad idea but you don’t KNOW that.

Just because a forged piston will take more abuse than cast pistons, it does not mean that they will not benefit from the extra oil available from the squirters. Squirters are not just “piston coolers”. They provide oil in vital places where even more oil is needed than it was in stock form.

As far as more oil on the crankshaft I believe the crank “takes care of itself” by spinning fast enough. Knife-edging the crank is not done to “keep the oil off and crank scrapers are a waste of time in my opinion.
Bottom line I have yet to “see” significant gains from “less” oil, however I’ve seen what insufficient oil to the pin can do especially on “full-floaters”. And aftermarket rods need more oil and supply less both to the pin and cylinder walls.
Not to mention the fact that the oil from the squirters is “free” after all since the oil system on a 4G63 acts like an “on-off” switch. Therefore the oil jets also help “relieve” the extra oil pressure that is present at high RPM.
That’s what I think.

No, I've talked to several high-hp long-time engine builders, and they had advised against the squirters. I just spoke to Ross's tech line, and they said that it would only help with heat in the piston, but that they work fine without. Bottom line? Spend your money how you choose, I'll pass on spending extra to have a g4cs block machined for them, plus the cost of the squirters. Personally, I'll be using coated pistons on the skirt and face, so I won't need squirters.

As for oil on the crank, knife-edging is to help cut through the oil in the pan, thereby keeping oil OFF-THE-CRANK. Crank scrapers wouldn't exist if they didn't make sense, they help make power at higher RPM, many race (and oem) engines use them, and they do have a purpose. The oil jets shouldn't have to help "relieve" high oil pressure, you should be porting the oil bypass to make sure that you don't have high oil pressure, since that *will* rob you of power.

I didn't make any mention of the rods/pins/cylinder walls needing adequate oil flow, those are completely unrelated to what I was talking about.

 

[GTM]

No, I've talked to several high-hp long-time engine builders, and they had advised against the squirters. I just spoke to Ross's tech line, and they said that it would only help with heat in the piston, but that they work fine without. Bottom line? Spend your money how you choose, I'll pass on spending extra to have a g4cs block machined for them, plus the cost of the squirters.
...

I don't understand why not go to the piston makers who supply the product to the engine builders for your information. I would be much more inclined to believe what they have based their engineering staff's design over some unsupported claims by perhaps someone who has not done their homework. If reliability is a concern and the engine is not being torn down after every race then it would be prudent to evaluate specific application needs. They did not include these oilers as bragging rights, they put them there to meet the demands of the higher output engine. Now some of you want to bump that number by another 30% or more and not address the additional heat production. Whether it's cost effective certainly can be a concern but at least be aware there is risk involved in not taking advantage of known practices.
............

There are SAE papers which do cite the advantages of "knife edge" of cranks and this must be combined with balancing of other rotating parts which could prove to make the engine less reliable if ignored.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[DSMraver]

I don't understand why not go to the piston makers who supply the product to the engine builders for your information. I would be much more inclined to believe what they have based their engineering staff's design over some unsupported claims by perhaps someone who has not done their homework. If reliability is a concern and the engine is not being torn down after every race then it would be prudent to evaluate specific application needs. They did not include these oilers as bragging rights, they put them there to meet the demands of the higher output engine. Now some of you want to bump that number by another 30% or more and not address the additional heat production. Whether it's cost effective certainly can be a concern but at least be aware there is risk involved in not taking advantage of known practices.
............

There are SAE papers which do cite the advantages of "knife edge" of cranks and this must be combined with balancing of other rotating parts which could prove to make the engine less reliable if ignored.

Cheers,
GTM

I did go to the manufacturer, i.e. I called Ross. That's why I posted my findings. I know why they included the squirters, in a stock application, it's common sense (not to mention the fact that OEM doesn't use forged pistons.)

I was addressing the additional heat issue with piston coatings, which are far more effective than a simple oil squirter.

I also agree with the balancing of engine parts after knife edging, that's only common sense.

Just wanted to clarify, not pick anything apart!

- John

 

[GTM]

I did go to the manufacturer, i.e. I called Ross. That's why I posted my findings. I know why they included the squirters, in a stock application, it's common sense (not to mention the fact that OEM doesn't use forged pistons.)

I was addressing the additional heat issue with piston coatings, which are far more effective than a simple oil squirter.
...

You seemed objective and yet...

... doesn't use forged pistons as if any thing else is inferior when it just isn't so with current engineering standards.

I'm in a p*ss arse mood from all the so called experts looking for a trophy.

Cheers,
GTM