IC's...Air/Air or Air/Water? [Merged 7-7] intercooler liquid

[turboglenn]

I have often thought about this, and from the intake temps i've seen and the frosty intake manifold i've put my hand on after a 3 gear pull, I would have to say meth injection has more benefits. ONly when packed with ICE or Dry ICE do they really seem to make a notable difference (but then again neither do FMIC's IMO at least for "seat of the pants" )

It's a great idea, but keeping the water changed out with cold stuff when you go out will get old fast, but it can be hidden to where no one even know's you have an intercooler

 

[xdxoxuxgx]

I've always been interested in water/air cooling, though I haven't seen it done much with turbos I see it more with superchargers, particularly with Cobra's. I wonder how well it would work if you kept your front mount AND added the water/air cooler? Just a thought...

 

[1992awdlaser]

I am going to be building one for my car right when I finish learning tig welding. I'm going to build something like this. http://www.pwr-performance.com/images/icebox.jpg

Then I will have a 9" or 12" radiator as the heat exchanger with a fan attacthed to it.

 

[bullettdsm]

This is my 420a w/a install (crappy pic but you get the idea);

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I set this up on my daily and I'm a firm believer in the W/A. It does require more fluids to watch but keeping the IATs down along with very little pressure drop across the intercooler make it appealing to me. I also have a very small front mount that I hid in the passenger side duct of my bumper (just a little additional cooling).

Unfortunately, its a little too new. I haven't had it out and about yet.

MB

 

[The_EE]

I bought a water to air intercooler a while back but plans have changed and I am dont think I will be using it, I have been trying to find some v8 guys interested in purchasing it but no luck so far, its a big SOB. something like 24X9X7.

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[mini zilo]

Ok, here is my proposed setup for the street. It will have both the stock sidemount and a liquid to air. The reason I am willing to include so many components in this system is because I believe that a W/A intercooler will provide amazing benefits when used with ice when I am racing. And when I am driving on the street, I will have the stock intercooler in series also to dissipate some of the heat so I don't have to worry to much about the water getting too hot. Not to mention, I will have a heat exchanger mounted in the front of the car.


Anyways, any comments or opinions about the setup and how it may work?

(please excuse the crappy MS paint drawing)

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[crimsondragon]

I hope that's not all going into the engine bay. It'll be hard to make fit. Any reason why you left the stock IC there? You could save the space by eliminating the sidemount and mounting the heat exchanger in the sidemount area. I see it trade off for space is worth it. I would mount the water cell either in the battery area if you relocate it to the rear. Have it feed down to the pump and to the exchanger to the intercooler and dumping back into the water reservoir. Basically you're dedicating the whole passenger side to it.

Or if you intend on having a FMIC sized exchanger, same setup but move it to the front, move the pump right beneath the airbox. Either way I'd still remove the sidemount.

 

[twack]

Anyone use a Water to Air intercooler? - DSMtalk Forums
why not make it easy on yourself and just make the stocker a water to air

 

[99gst_racer]

mini zilo - If it were me, I'd remove the stock sidemount from your diagram. It won't be needed. A properly set-up water intercooler with a heat exchanger will keep intake temps ambient by itself. That's something that a stock SMIC can't do. If anything, all it's doing is increasing pressure drop (but not by much though). The rest of the diagram looks good though.

 

[324vr4]

I currently have a HUGE FMIC (31x17x3) and I'm not sure if its what I'm looking for as far as it being so close to the ground. I currently have EVO8 suspension and it sits fine and looks great but my IC is still much too low for me on these "game trails" they calls road here in Montucky....

I have been looking intot he L2A IC systems and am wondering if there are less pro's to sucha a setup on an autox/road racing car...or if it would be just advantageous to move the IC higher (remount) to alleviate my concerns....

Does anyone have any real world results on the benefits to L2A IC setups over the A2A IC setups and what limitations I would see if I were to go to the L2A setup (limitations: spool, IATs, etc.)?

Thanks in advance!

 

[99RedGs]

Is this car also a DD? If so you will need a heat exchanger of some sort in order for it to really work everyday on the street, and even then it probably won't work as well as a standard FMIC. Usually L2A set-ups are for drag racing where you can change the water between runs, or add ice , etc... Its going to be hard to keep ice water in there daily though

 

[324vr4]

Right I was thinking that...I will DD every so often but its built for race applications where I will have it under load every so often...So hypothetically stating, if I were to go L2A a heat exchanger would definitely be a must...I know GMC Syclones/Typhoons did this but their boost was limited. How do some rally cars bare this method under such extended loads? Is it more a matter on how well your heat exchanger does or is there another thing I'm missing...?

I would still like to use "max" boost on the E316g turbo but obviously not if its detrimental with a L2A setup...

I'm starting to think it would be better to just get a new IC core or remount the existing one I have...

 

[mitsu-luver]

if you run a water to air inter cooler just buy a radiator and fan for it it will keep the temps down for a dd

 

[324vr4]

Could I still boost the levels I wanted to with the L2A setup if I were to use water/meth injection?! Would that enable me the boost levels without the knock?!

Guess it depends on the tune...but...

 

[cbrfrenzie]

I would think that with a dd the L2A IC would limit your boost, based on water temps. If you are racing at events where you can change the water and/or add ice, I would guess the two setups to be equal in IAT's. You could cure that by turning the boost down on the street, and turning it up at the track or course.

With a good heat exchanger, ICE cold water and sufficient L2A IC core I would think IAT's would be lower then with an A2A IC. Does anyone have any info to agree or disagree with this claim? If so please list the specs of the two systems.

 

[99RedGs]

I would think that with a dd the L2A IC would limit your boost, based on water temps. If you are racing at events where you can change the water and/or add ice, I would guess the two setups to be equal in IAT's. You could cure that by turning the boost down on the street, and turning it up at the track or course.

With a good heat exchanger, ICE cold water and sufficient L2A IC core I would think IAT's would be lower then with an A2A IC. Does anyone have any info to agree or disagree with this claim? If so please list the specs of the two systems.

The L2A should definately allow the potential for lower IAT's because it can potentially cool the air to lower than ambient temperature. An A2A intercooler can cool IAT's to a minimum of ambient temperatures since it is using ambient air to cool the charge. Obviously you won't actually reach ambient temps after compression, but that should give you an idea of what I mean.

 

[324vr4]

Great advice...but referring to my previous post..."what if" I went the L2A route and still had a modest heat exchanger, would water/meth injection allow for more boost safe enough for the potential of DD'n?!

 

[Boost92awd]

Is your profile up to date? If your on a e16g there really no reason to go to a L2A setup. Also lets see some pictures of this intercooler. I'v never heard of a 31X17X3 intercooler on a GVR4. Maybe you should look into a intercooler that dosent have the height, but is thicker.

https://secure.buschurracing.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_36_90&products_id=238

 

[324vr4]

The reason is I would like to some day rally the car at a new local event to be happening next year...so if ground clearance were an issue on courses I would like to see if there is a better system that will allow the clearance and stable stance as well....

...my profile has pictures of everything so far...as far as the other options on IC cores, thanks for the link..I like the idea of a shorter, wider core but I could do many more things (hopefully) for that price...I'm not afraid of fabricating things...just looking for ideas and advice...thanks again!

 

[dsmfa9nutter]

You're an engineer? Get outside, get the bumper off and remount it an inch or two higher.

 

[324vr4]

You're an engineer? Get outside, get the bumper off and remount it an inch or two higher.

Haha, man, I JUST changed that from AutoCAD designer...I'm not afraid of remounting if I need to, I am just looking to see if there are "other" methods to cooling the charged air better than a FMIC...I like the L2A setups and just looking for some feedback on them...

 

[dsmfa9nutter]

Personally, I'd stick with the a2a. Ignoring the cost, l2a doesn't have a big enough advantage over a2a for street cars.

 

[DanaT]

My friend has an Esprit SE. This car has a factory water/air intercooler. Some of this is due to the mid engine. It has a separte cooling system for the intercooler with a raditor up front and then runs cool water to the mid engine.

Even after running the car hard, you can put your hand on the intercooler and it is cool to the touch. This is only a road racing car. The air to water is much better as you need no forward momentum to get airflow. It is cool from a dead stop. Calories out of the air is calories out. A liquid to air intercooler can use a much smaller core and be located very close to the engine (google an esprit intercooler picture). But remember, if you pull out x amount of calories from the intake air into water, you still must exchange that somewhere normally a raditor (or two or three).

Air to water is better because of packaging and cold from the start. It adds extra weight and complexity.

-Dana

 

[dsmfa9nutter]

Aka, not worth the cost/pita for a street car.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Well, I'm currently in full build mode and mostly at ground zero with this new car I have. But have the mods/parts list already planned out. As for my water/air setup, what do you guys think of my choices off one of the sites I was looking at? I'm wanting a pretty big heat exchanger and as much fluid as I can cram into the car. I figure the more water I have, the longer to heat soak, and the cooler it'll be....as well as having the bigger heat exchanger to almost look like a front mount. Here's the parts I'm looking at.

$99.99
Water to Air Ice Box Reservoir

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$169.99
Barrel Style Water to Air Intercooler

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$24.99
Slim Radiator Fan

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$179.99
Air to Water Heat Exchanger

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$49.99
Intercooler Pump

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$54.99
Liquid to air installation kit

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Cost varies on how much needed
Silicone Hose

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$2.60 per clamp
Hose Clamp

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$19.99
T-pipe

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Minus maybe some 45 or 90 degree bends, I don't think the price would be all that bad for this kind of i/c setup. Plus I can buy a little at a time instead of having to save $800-900 for an air/air setup all at once. I think I wanna try and get as much of the piping done with the silicone couplers cause I'm thinking of 1.) flexibility, 2.) No need for welding or needing custom work done or need of mandrel bent piping and, 3.) I think the air would stay cooler cause I think the silicone will insulate the air better unlike metal pipes that just get heated up and transfer that heat back into the air to defeat the purpose of needing it cooled off anyway.

Anywho, this is my plan for the i/c setup to use at the track AND the street. What do you guys think?