IC's...Air/Air or Air/Water? [Merged 7-7] intercooler liquid

[v8s_are_slow]

Been thinking about the setup I wanna use personally on my 2g. Been looking at how I'd route things if I did it under the hood and realize space would be tight (like I've seen in pics of other people doing it this way), not to mention the under hood heat getting to the i/c. So I think that what I wanna do is find an i/c that'll fit in the location of the stock sidemount. That way I could keep i/c piping route close to stock, keep the i/c cool, keep the engine bay clean, and still have relatively short pipes. There's a good amount of space there where the stock i/c is at so thinking I could fit a good size i/c in there. Wondering if anyone makes a customer water/air i/c to fit in "x" dimensions and have the inlet/outlet at certain spots. Hmmm...

 

[v8slayer]

Been thinking about the setup I wanna use personally on my 2g. Been looking at how I'd route things if I did it under the hood and realize space would be tight (like I've seen in pics of other people doing it this way), not to mention the under hood heat getting to the i/c. So I think that what I wanna do is find an i/c that'll fit in the location of the stock sidemount. That way I could keep i/c piping route close to stock, keep the i/c cool, keep the engine bay clean, and still have relatively short pipes. There's a good amount of space there where the stock i/c is at so thinking I could fit a good size i/c in there. Wondering if anyone makes a customer water/air i/c to fit in "x" dimensions and have the inlet/outlet at certain spots. Hmmm...

Well those are all good points.

What I have found though is Shorter the piping the better everything works.
As for engine heat effecting the I.C. I would say not much as my intake temp is always very close to ambient and the outer I.C. shell is always cool even after a hard pull or two.
As for the comment about using Meth with a Water to Air I.C. I really don't know as I mounted my AIT sensor pre meth so I don't know if my A.I.T. would be lower than what I'm already reading. Some say I did it backwards and some say it makes little difference if you tune with meth so your not looking to to create a A.I.T. timing correction mod.

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[thiazole]

Well those are all good points.

What I have found though is Shorter the piping the better everything works.
As for engine heat effecting the I.C. I would say not much as my intake temp is always very close to ambient and the outer I.C. shell is always cool even after a hard pull or two.
As for the comment about using Meth with a Water to Air I.C. I really don't know as I mounted my AIT sensor pre meth so I don't know if my A.I.T. would be lower than what I'm already reading. Some say I did it backwards and some say it makes little difference if you tune with meth so your not looking to to create a A.I.T. timing correction mod.

I agree - the water flows too fast to heat soak from simple underhood heat (and the metal on the outside of the intercooler is stainless steel which doesn't transfer heat that quickly compared to the aluminum core). You can never have too cool an air charge (alright, you technically can, but it that temp would probably be more like -100*), so meth will only benefit you no matter what setup you have. The major reason most don't use meth with an LAIC is that they don't have room for it since the pipe from the IC to the TB is usually very short. Besides, meth does more than cool the intake charge - it is also a great octane boost which is a benefit regardless of the IC.

 

[phunny]

So are we saying that there is a benefit but really none that you would notice?

 

[thiazole]

So are we saying that there is a benefit but really none that you would notice?

No, I don't know how you came to that conclusion from my post. I said that meth further cools the intake charge, and no matter how cool it already is, you will benefit from cooling it more (within reason). I also said that methanol increases your octane which will also benefit you (because you can tune it more aggressively).

Let me put it this way - I have an LAIC and I first ran pump 91 octane fuel. Because the LAIC worked so well, I was able to tune much more aggressively than someone running a FMIC and 91 octane. Still, I was limited by octane and my LAIC could only cool the air to the outside air temperature at best (unless I used ice water). I then switched to E85. Now ethanol is much like methanol in that it further cools the air charge (because of high latent heat of vaporization) and it also provides a benefit to octane. Did I see gains? Absolutely. I was able to tune even more aggressively and I made another 60hp. Meth is the same.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

V8slayer, I like your setup that ya have there but that's on a 1g. And a 2g is much tighter in the engine bay. Reason I was thinking about having an i/c in the stock i/c location....cut that section open where the i/c pipe comes thru the metal near the air filter as well to make more room for larger i/c pipes or make it easier for mounting the i/c (if you understand what I'm saying about cutting the metal). I plan to keep the stock 2g maf in the car as well so dunno how easy it'd be to mount an i/c under the engine bay. Can't really see the pics of your intake (do you have any?) to see how you have it routed but guessing maybe you're speed density maybe? Mind if I ask how you have the i/c pipe hooked up to the throttle body? It is a stock tb right? 3 inch i/c pipes? Would like to go with 3 inch pipes but concerned about the tb being smaller.

I only plan to run an E16g or 20g at the largest. Of course I wanna see how fast I can make it go but I'm not going with a huge turbo by any means. Understand the point of keeping short pipes, but keeping it in the stock location doesn't seem to me to make it that much longer than the setup you have there really. The i/c would just be a bit lower really. Was thinking of using silicone piping and couplers to make my i/c pipes as well versus metal pipes. Anything to reduce temps.

 

[v8slayer]

V8slayer, I like your setup that ya have there but that's on a 1g. And a 2g is much tighter in the engine bay. Reason I was thinking about having an i/c in the stock i/c location....cut that section open where the i/c pipe comes thru the metal near the air filter as well to make more room for larger i/c pipes or make it easier for mounting the i/c (if you understand what I'm saying about cutting the metal). I plan to keep the stock 2g maf in the car as well so dunno how easy it'd be to mount an i/c under the engine bay. Can't really see the pics of your intake (do you have any?) to see how you have it routed but guessing maybe you're speed density maybe? Mind if I ask how you have the i/c pipe hooked up to the throttle body? It is a stock tb right? 3 inch i/c pipes? Would like to go with 3 inch pipes but concerned about the tb being smaller.

I only plan to run an E16g or 20g at the largest. Of course I wanna see how fast I can make it go but I'm not going with a huge turbo by any means. Understand the point of keeping short pipes, but keeping it in the stock location doesn't seem to me to make it that much longer than the setup you have there really. The i/c would just be a bit lower really. Was thinking of using silicone piping and couplers to make my i/c pipes as well versus metal pipes. Anything to reduce temps.

I totally understand what your saying and it sounds like its the best for you.
I don't have a MAF to worry about and yes a 2G is tighter.
The location of your IC will work just as good as mine and with proper venting your filter won't be sucking 150F under hood air.
I beleive thats where mine makes a big differnce.
Starting with ambeint air really keeps a turbo more effecint and there fore it's dicharge air cooler. A good start to a better finish as far as AIT goes.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Mind pm'ing me about the tb and how ya have the i/c pipes hooked up to it and what size pipes ya have etc.? Would prefer pm so as not to get off topic in here if that's cool. Thanks.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Gonna be ordering my i/c setup in about a month. Only concern I have is that the 2g's have less room under the hood than the 1g's and trying to figure out which core would be best to use. I've been debating and debating and debating. Been wanting to go with the straight thru design that frozenboost.com but it's like 14 inches long. Wondering how well that'd fit. Any of you guy have pics of one on a 2g setup? Measurements of the core you're using?

 

[1995gsx20g]

frozenboost.com its just as affordable as a regular front mount.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

I know. That's who I plan to buy from. Just dunno which core would be the best one to fit under the hood of my car.

 

[1995gsx20g]

I know. That's who I plan to buy from. Just dunno which core would be the best one to fit under the hood of my car.

thats an issue of personal preference and how big do you what this set up to go?

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Well, it's more of an issue as to what will fit, and what won't. 2g's have a pretty tight area to put these things in.

 

[1995gsx20g]

relocate the battery to the trunk and you will have a "trunk" where it used to be.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

I've been putting off ordering mine for a little while now cause I've been getting other things like gauges, wideband, ecmlink, etc. But in a couple of weeks I'm gonna go ahead and bite the bullet and go ahead and order my setup. Although I won't install it until I have my JMFab SMIM and Fftec throttle body.

Getting my setup from Frozenboost.com but anyone know where I could get a heat exchanger like this one???

I'd like to have one like that if it not too terribly expensive cause the surface area would be greater, more water, and would fill that nice hole in the front of the bumper nicely. If I can't find out before 2 weeks come, I guess I'll order the largest one that Frozenboost has but it's only 7 inches tall so guess I wouldn't be cutting that small piece off the top of the bumper otherwise the hole would be too big and look retarded.

 

[v8slayer]

I've been putting off ordering mine for a little while now cause I've been getting other things like gauges, wideband, ecmlink, etc. But in a couple of weeks I'm gonna go ahead and bite the bullet and go ahead and order my setup. Although I won't install it until I have my JMFab SMIM and Fftec throttle body.

Getting my setup from Frozenboost.com but anyone know where I could get a heat exchanger like this one???

I'd like to have one like that if it not too terribly expensive cause the surface area would be greater, more water, and would fill that nice hole in the front of the bumper nicely. If I can't find out before 2 weeks come, I guess I'll order the largest one that Frozenboost has but it's only 7 inches tall so guess I wouldn't be cutting that small piece off the top of the bumper otherwise the hole would be too big and look retarded.

Sorry for being away.

You gents did notice my ABS was removed right?
You can't do the install with it in.
Just a heads up.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Kinda hard to tell if you have abs or not from that picture. Lol. Why does abs have to go? Heat exchanger, piping, or what? Thanks.

 

[Kevin TSI]

Sorry to bring this back from the dead. I was wondering if it would be ok to mount the air to water intercooler where the stock side mount would be. Obviously I know that putting it as close to the throttle body as possible would be best but that is not what I am asking. All the photos I find show the intercooler on the uppermost pipe. Is there a reason for this even if I have a bleeder on the intercooler?

Thanks, Kevin

 

[red_devil]

off topic

Does the owner of the car above live in Blacksburg Va?

 

[thiazole]

Sorry to bring this back from the dead. I was wondering if it would be ok to mount the air to water intercooler where the stock side mount would be. Obviously I know that putting it as close to the throttle body as possible would be best but that is not what I am asking. All the photos I find show the intercooler on the uppermost pipe. Is there a reason for this even if I have a bleeder on the intercooler?

Thanks, Kevin

Yes, you can mount it in the stock sidemount location. I don't know what you mean by the "uppermost pipe". Assuming you are talking about the highest point in the system, people don't purposefully put their intercooler at the highest point. In fact, ideally you wouldn't put it at the highest point since air rises to the highest point and the last thing you want in your water/air intercooler is a big air bubble stuck in the water jacket. "Ideally", to prevent air bubbles from forming in the water jacket, you'd have a w/a intercooler set up so that the water enters the bottom and exits the top. This allows the air to naturally flow the same direction as the water which pushes the air out the top of the intercooler and prevents any big air bubbles from getting stuck in the intercooler. It isn't the end of the world if air bubbles form somewhere else in your system - you just don't want them in the intercooler preventing heat transfer to the water. The stock sidemount position would be ideal for that one purpose (and for ease of installation) - it just isn't very ideal for shorter more direct tubing.

As a chemist, I use a lot of glass apparatus that has water flowing through it (particularly in a reflux condenser). Since they are glass, they are see through, and this allows you to realize that they only work if the water flows from the bottom to the top. If you flow in the reverse direction, the water just trickles down the glass and the air remains in the condenser.

 

[agentorange313]

I agree, the stock position of the intercooler creates a nice area for the water to air intercooler. I am currently working on a project with an water to air intercooler in that location

I am using the frozen boost Water to Air Intercooler - 11"x9"x3.5" - O/S I/O (Type 8) Intercooler
I have it positioned so there is a 90 degree elbow taking the cooled air though the stock intercooler pipe location. I expended the hole and made it large enough for 2.5 piping. I am also using a dejon powerhouse upper intercooler piping. It all fits really well. The inlet of the intercooler faces forward. It is located right where the foglight is on the passenger side. What I did was take a u bend and redirected the inlet to the engine bay, through the d-shaped holes, the same holes that SBR and the ETS frontmount short route utilize.

I then used a j pipe and a 90 coupler to connect the piping to the turbo. I am using a mitsu turbo.

I am trying to get pictures up asap. I am sure everyone would like to see what I am talking about rather then reading it.

 

[thiazole]

Uh oh, another blow to the "W/A intercoolers are only for drag racing and aren't streetable" crowd. Ford is putting one on the new turbo-diesel trucks. I guess they must only be for drag racing?

Turbocharger
The 6.7L uses a Garrett single sequential turbo (SST) with variable geometry, a dual-scroll exhaust housing, and an externally actuated wastegate. This turbo has a pair of compressor wheels that are coupled together on a single shaft driven by the turbine wheel. The design is said to dramatically increase the compressor map's range and functions like a sequential twin-turbo system. The boost pressure will be around 30 psi, the turbine shaft speed will see up to 130,000 rpm, and the whole system was designed to function as an exhaust brake. The compressed air will be cooled by an air-to-water intercooler-another first in this segment.

Ford 6.7L Powerstroke Diesel Engine - Garrett Turbo - Diesel Power Magazine

 

[Kevin TSI]

Te sidemount design you are talking about sounds interesting. Mine will be slightly different since I am using a topmount but I will also post pictures. Has there been any discussion on the size of the lines in the air to water setup? I would like to use AN lines since every other line on the car is. Would I be better off with -12 or -10?

Thanks.

 

[agentorange313]

I was also thinking about what hose size to use. I think that -10 and -12 should be sufficient size for transfering the fluid. 3/4 inch hose is pretty large. If you notice, the Frozenboost kits utilize a 3/4 inch hose which is -12. I was going to go -10 depending on the pump. I think that the pump will help determine what size hose to use. But I think its going to be definitely a toss up between -10 -12.

I have been researching pumps, even thinking about using some external fuel pumps, but that was a no go(if you really need to know why you can message me). I was looking at Meziere pumps but they are expensive. Meziere water pumps

Jegs has a name brand one: jegs water pump

As you can see both pumps can utilize AN fittings with adapters. Also I am concerned with the psi the pump creates. most systems are limited to 70 psi. I hope these pumps are not too strong.

Kevintsi:

I was going for a sleeper look with watercooler, I guess everyone is. I didn't want to keep it in the engine bay because of the temperatures in there. Also it is about 6-7 inches more of piping then the stock. It also lets me use more piping so the placement of the BOV is restricted and I can recirculate.

 

[thiazole]

I was also thinking about what hose size to use. I think that -10 and -12 should be sufficient size for transfering the fluid. 3/4 inch hose is pretty large. If you notice, the Frozenboost kits utilize a 3/4 inch hose which is -12. I was going to go -10 depending on the pump. I think that the pump will help determine what size hose to use. But I think its going to be definitely a toss up between -10 -12.

I have been researching pumps, even thinking about using some external fuel pumps, but that was a no go(if you really need to know why you can message me). I was looking at Meziere pumps but they are expensive. Meziere water pumps

Jegs has a name brand one: jegs water pump

As you can see both pumps can utilize AN fittings with adapters. Also I am concerned with the psi the pump creates. most systems are limited to 70 psi. I hope these pumps are not too strong.

Kevintsi:

I was going for a sleeper look with watercooler, I guess everyone is. I didn't want to keep it in the engine bay because of the temperatures in there. Also it is about 6-7 inches more of piping then the stock. It also lets me use more piping so the placement of the BOV is restricted and I can recirculate.

I've got the Meziere 20gal/min pump - it flows very well, but it isn't overkill. I wouldn't have bought that one due to the price, but I found someone who bought it to use as an engine coolant pump and changed his mind, so I got it cheap. I'm using the 3/4" hose - I'd say it is maxing the capability of flow for a 3/4" hose.