IC's...Air/Air or Air/Water? [Merged 7-7] intercooler liquid

[99gst_racer]

I don't know about that Ice Box Reservoir. It's not a horrible design, but at first glance, it doesn't appear to be insulated. Which means it's going to be sweating like crazy on a hot summer day at the track, and your ice won't stay frozen for nearly as long (even if thermal wrapped). Just something to think about.

I bought a Coleman cooler for my A2W IC set-up. I was going to use a similar Rule bilge pump enclosed in the cooler. Definitely let us know how that barrel style IC performs. I haven't completely decided on a core to use yet, and that appears to be the cheapest barrel style that I've seen on the market.

 

[thiazole]

Aka, not worth the cost/pita for a street car.

My complete W2A system cost me around $700 (and that includes a 1200g/h water pump), it has no measurable pressure loss, is about 90 to 95% efficient, and I've put about 3000 flawless street miles on it since I got it a few months ago. These are completely streetable. I don't know why people think they aren't. Your engine has a water pump, hoses, and a radiator, your fuel system has a fuel pump and hoses, along with an AFPR and injectors that are run by the ECU, your turbo system is an exhaust powered air pump with a BOV and a wastegate - all these systems are just as or more complicated than a W2A system, yet your car is still streetable.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

I don't know about that Ice Box Reservoir. It's not a horrible design, but at first glance, it doesn't appear to be insulated. Which means it's going to be sweating like crazy on a hot summer day at the track, and your ice won't stay frozen for nearly as long (even if thermal wrapped). Just something to think about.

I bought a Coleman cooler for my A2W IC set-up. I was going to use a similar Rule bilge pump enclosed in the cooler. Definitely let us know how that barrel style IC performs. I haven't completely decided on a core to use yet, and that appears to be the cheapest barrel style that I've seen on the market.

All the reservoirs I've seen are made out of sheetmetal. It's not like it'll be mounted in the hot engine bay so I wouldn't think it'd be all that bad. Especially with the use of a heat exchanger. Unless you know of a place to get a reservoir that's insulated. If so, please post a link so I can check it out.

Are you talking about a cooler that you'd take to the games and put your drinks in?!?!?!? I see some people tying to use their sidemounts and crap like that for their setups. I personally don't wanna halfass anything on my setup.

 

[97EclipseGSX]

My complete W2A system cost me around $700 (and that includes a 1200g/h water pump), it has no measurable pressure loss, is about 90 to 95% efficient, and I've put about 3000 flawless street miles on it since I got it a few months ago. These are completely streetable. I don't know why people think they aren't. Your engine has a water pump, hoses, and a radiator, your fuel system has a fuel pump and hoses, along with an AFPR and injectors that are run by the ECU, your turbo system is an exhaust powered air pump with a BOV and a wastegate - all these systems are just as or more complicated than a W2A system, yet your car is still streetable.

Couldn't agree more. I've had one on my car for a few years with no complaints. Well except that it will freeze in the winter if you don't mix it with radiator fluid. Don't wanna crack anything.

You are correct if there is air in the system its performance will lack big time. The feed and return fittings should be pointed up as much as possible to allow air bubbles to remove themselves.

I wouldn't recommend sucking hot water into the water pump as some of the diagrams have seemed to suggest. My opinion is that you should push cold water into the top (closest to the intake) of the intercooler and suck it from the bottom most side of the heat exchanger. I have tried a few other different methods this one seems to net the best intake temps.

I run a spearco water pump that is designed for l2a systems. I chose this one because I believe you don't want to pump the water to fast or the system will not be able to cool the water correctly. It is designed for this purpose so I'm assuming the flow rate is correct for the task. It was also pretty cheap and small/light.

Now if only I had an ice resevoir.

 

[thiazole]

I run a spearco water pump that is designed for l2a systems. I chose this one because I believe you don't want to pump the water to fast or the system will not be able to cool the water correctly. It is designed for this purpose so I'm assuming the flow rate is correct for the task. It was also pretty cheap and small/light.

That's just a myth. The faster you pump the water, the more efficient your intercooler will be (although there will be diminishing marginal returns at some point, that point is a very obscene level of flow - maybe 5000 gallons per hour?). There is a potential down side to increasing the efficiency - the more efficiently it pulls heat out of the intake charge, the warmer the water will get and therefore the greater the requirements for the heat exchanger. If you don't have a big enough heat exchanger and your reservoir size is too small, this will cause heat soaking of the water. Otherwise, it is to your advantage to have the fastest flowing pump possible.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Where are you guys getting the l2a systems, etc. Are these Spearco systems? Something else? Just wanna keep my options open.

 

[thiazole]

Mine is a Frozen Boost/ Silicone Intakes intercooler.

 

[Defiant]

That's just a myth. The faster you pump the water, the more efficient your intercooler will be (although there will be diminishing marginal returns at some point, that point is a very obscene level of flow - maybe 5000 gallons per hour?). There is a potential down side to increasing the efficiency - the more efficiently it pulls heat out of the intake charge, the warmer the water will get and therefore the greater the requirements for the heat exchanger. If you don't have a big enough heat exchanger and your reservoir size is too small, this will cause heat soaking of the water. Otherwise, it is to your advantage to have the fastest flowing pump possible.

You have to give the cooling medium time to absorb heat from the IC, and shed it in its radiator. If the coolant's circulated too fast for either absorption or cooling, you'll just raise the whole system to an average of the intercooler and its radiator.

 

[thiazole]

You have to give the cooling medium time to absorb heat from the IC, and shed it in its radiator. If the coolant's circulated too fast for either absorption or cooling, you'll just raise the whole system to an average of the intercooler and its radiator.

Well, by that logic, an a/a intercooler will stop working if you get going too fast because the cooling medium (air) doesn't have "time to absorb heat from the IC". That is just isn't true. It is an old myth like hot water freezing faster than cold water.

The reality is, it doesn't need a different amount of time to absorb. The heat from the air absorbs into the aluminum of your core at the same rate regardless of the water speed. Then the heat from the aluminum absorbs into the water at the same rate regardless of the water speed. The difference is that the faster the water is moving, the less time it has to get hot before it moves on - in other words, the average temperature of the water in the intercooler is COLDER (because the warm water is flushed away faster), and therefore it can draw out MORE heat.

Think of it this way (if you aren't convinced yet). A 400 gal/hr pump will move 6.67 gal/min and only 0.11 gal/sec. So if you core holds about 1/2 a gallon of water, it takes about 5 seconds for the water entering your intercooler to exit. That is around 1/2 the time you spend in the 1/4 mile! In other words, if you went through the 1/4 mile in 10 seconds, you would only circulate 1 gallon of water through your intercooler. How much heat do you think 1 gallon of water can absorb before it gets heat soaked?

On the other hand, with a 1200 gal/hr pump, you will flow 3 gallons of water through the intercooler through the 1/4 mile and will have the capacity to absorb 3X as much heat if needed. If it isn't needed, it won't make any difference.

I can also tell you from experience that going from a 450gal/hr pump to a 1200gal/hr pump and looking at my intake temperature gauge, that the 1200 DOES work better. When I am cruising around and at low boost, they work the same - they keep the intake temps almost exactly the same as the water temp. At high boost, when the 450gal/hr might allow a 40*F increase in air temps, my 1200 will only show a 20*F increase in air temps. It is just a matter of how much you want to cool the air off. In the end, running 40* over ambient is fine and still pretty efficient, but if you drop the air temp by 20* you will be getting about a 4% increase in air density and will therefore flow 4% more air. So if you were flowing 45lbs/min with a 450gal/hr pump, you might be flowing 47lbs/min with a 1200gal/hr pump. The bigger pump in my mind is really a performance modification more than a safety modification. Being able to have the air entering my engine around 50*F on a 90* day when I'm running ice water is awesome and will blow the doors off of anything any a/a intercooler could ever hope to do, but if the air was 70* instead, it would still blow the doors off any a/a intercooler.

 

[99gst_racer]

All the reservoirs I've seen are made out of sheetmetal. It's not like it'll be mounted in the hot engine bay so I wouldn't think it'd be all that bad. Especially with the use of a heat exchanger. Unless you know of a place to get a reservoir that's insulated. If so, please post a link so I can check it out.

Are you talking about a cooler that you'd take to the games and put your drinks in?!?!?!? I see some people tying to use their sidemounts and crap like that for their setups. I personally don't wanna halfass anything on my setup.

Yup.

I'm using this Coleman cooler:

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And this pump will be attached inside of it:

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I'm going to run a couple bulkhead AN fittings through the cooler for the feed and return. This set-up is cheap, but effective. The cooler is insulated well for those long summer track days, and the pump will even work with salt water.

 

[thiazole]

I was originally thinking of doing something like that. I was going to put a super cold medium inside the cooler and use a coolant mixture in the intercooler system to get the water temps to sub freezing temperatures. When I realized just how efficient this setup works with just ice water, I scrapped the idea. What happens is, you get the air SO dense going into your engine, that you overrun the turbo and make peak hp at like 5000rpm. It doesn't increase your hp, but makes it happen earlier, because the turbo is just getting maxed out much faster. You can literally make your engine ingest so much air this way that a 2.3L with a subzero temp l2a medium would be equivalent to a 2.8L engine with an a/a intercooler at the same boost.

 

[97EclipseGSX]

That's just a myth. The faster you pump the water, the more efficient your intercooler will be (although there will be diminishing marginal returns at some point, that point is a very obscene level of flow - maybe 5000 gallons per hour?). There is a potential down side to increasing the efficiency - the more efficiently it pulls heat out of the intake charge, the warmer the water will get and therefore the greater the requirements for the heat exchanger. If you don't have a big enough heat exchanger and your reservoir size is too small, this will cause heat soaking of the water. Otherwise, it is to your advantage to have the fastest flowing pump possible.

If you reread my post I was referring to the water beeing cooled by the air flowing over the heat exchanger. Not that I can make a great arguement to support my belief. Maybe someone else can?

If my memory serves me right the cooling properties of air to water is 4:1. It takes 4 times more air to cool water. Given that bit of info you would want to allow the air more time to cool the water. This info as well as input from some others is pretty much all I have used to formulate my opinion. I'm no scientist, nor have I ran around purchasing different pumps to find an optimal flow rate so I can't say what flow rate is best or much more than I already have.

The air in the intake track spends most of its "important" time at a pretty high rate that is not constant. Given that it is not constant, I don't see how you can base your judgement from that side of the system. I mean yes you want the intercooler to work as good as possible but remember the 4:1. It takes 4 times less water to cool a given amount of air.

Hope that makes any sesne.

What happens is, you get the air SO dense going into your engine, that you overrun the turbo and make peak hp at like 5000rpm.

Um what?

Just some food for thought... You are returning warm water to the ice box. Not that it won't matter at all but I don't think the cooler you are trying to retrofit is necessary. I don't see the ice lasting very long with or without an insulated box. Well maybe if you don't drive the car but that would defeat the purpose. Also, your gonna want to replenish the ice after every run anyways so its probably not worth the space.

 

[thiazole]

If you reread my post I was referring to the water beeing cooled by the air flowing over the heat exchanger. Not that I can make a great arguement to support my belief. Maybe someone else can?

If my memory serves me right the cooling properties of air to water is 4:1. It takes 4 times more air to cool water. Given that bit of info you would want to allow the air more time to cool the water. This info as well as input from some others is pretty much all I have used to formulate my opinion. I'm no scientist, nor have I ran around purchasing different pumps to find an optimal flow rate so I can't say what flow rate is best or much more than I already have.

The air in the intake track spends most of its "important" time at a pretty high rate that is not constant. Given that it is not constant, I don't see how you can base your judgement from that side of the system. I mean yes you want the intercooler to work as good as possible but remember the 4:1. It takes 4 times less water to cool a given amount of air.

Hope that makes any sesne.

Well, just do the math. It is pretty simple. Let's say you are flowing 50lbs/min air and the temperature of the air is 350*F and you flow that for 11 seconds (through the 1/4 mile). That means you flowed a total of 50lbs/min x 1min/60sec x 11 sec = 9.17 lbs of air. So, if you are flowing 400 gallons/hr water or 0.11gallons/sec, and water weighs 8.33lbs/gal, that would be 0.11 x 8.33 = .92 lbs/sec or 10.12 lbs through the 1/4 mile. Since the lbs of air and the lbs of water are very similar in this case, lets just say for every 4* you lower the intake charge, you will raise the temp of the water by 1*. The point of equilibrium is where both temps are equal. So, if the water temp was 32*F and the air is 350*F, the equation would be (X + 32* is the temp of the water, and 350* - 4X is the temp of the air)
X + 32 = 350 - 4X
5X = 328
X = 65.6*F

So the temperature of the water leaving the intercooler would be 65.6* + 32* = 97.6*F and the intake air temps would also be 350 - 4 x 65.6 = 97.6*F (and over 11 seconds, you'd only flow 1.2 gallons of water though the intercooler - so if you have a 6 gallon system like I have, you basically wasted the other 5 gallons, which is why the temps are so high).

Now, if you were instead flowing 1200gal/hr water through the system, that means the water would have triple the cooling effect, so:
X + 32 = 350 - 12X
13X = 328
X = 25.2*F

So that puts the temp of the air and water coming out of the intercooler at 57.2*F. You would also flow about 3.7 gallons through the system, which is utilizing much more of the water in the reservoir.

 

[thiazole]

Um what?

Just some food for thought... You are returning warm water to the ice box. Not that it won't matter at all but I don't think the cooler you are trying to retrofit is necessary. I don't see the ice lasting very long with or without an insulated box. Well maybe if you don't drive the car but that would defeat the purpose. Also, your gonna want to replenish the ice after every run anyways so its probably not worth the space.

I was thinking of using dry ice mixture in the cooler to cool the water/coolant mixuture in the tank to -20*F. If you use the above math (which isn't exactly right since water/coolant solutions only have about 75% the heat capacity of pure water, but it will be close enough to get a good number) for a 1200 gal/hr pump, you get
-20 + X = 350 - 12x
13X = 370
X = 28*F

That would put your air temps and water temps exiting the intercooler at 8*F. First of all, 8*F is hardly warm and isn't going to significanly affect the temp of the water in the tank. Secondly, if you compare this to an a/a intercooler that is 80% efficient on a 90* day (using this to calculate Stealth 316 - Turbo Outlet Temperature), you get 142* intake temps, or 134* hotter than the system I described. If you go back to the engineering toolbox site I mentioned before, that shows that when you decrease the temperature of of 30psi air by 130*F or so that you get about a 25% increase in air density. So if you would normally max your turbo flow at 30psi and 8000rpm, you would now max it out at 30psi and only 6400rpm. You have effectively made your engine 25% bigger since it is now capable of flowing 25% more air mass per rev. Not only that, but unlike stroking an engine, this will not be flowing a higher volume of air (because the air is more dense) and therefore your efficient rpm range of your engine remains unaffected. So if your engine is optimized to flow after 7000rpm, this will make your turbo too small for your engine. All of these ramifications are why I decided this wasn't ideal on my setup.

Still, if your turbo could handle it, how many mods can you think of that would increase your airflow by 25%, increase spool up by 25%, and cost as much as a cooler that you can buy at Walmart? It is a great idea, just not practical for my setup.

 

[97EclipseGSX]

Well, just do the math. It is pretty simple.

What about exposure time?

What I mean is how long it actually takes the water or air to cool the opposite medium by a degree. I would think that would be important yes/no?

Still, if your turbo could handle it, how many mods can you think of that would increase your airflow by 25%, increase spool up by 25%, and cost as much as a cooler that you can buy at Walmart? It is a great idea, just not practical for my setup.

Sorry I missread the original post. Thought it said something else.

 

[thiazole]

What about exposure time?

What I mean is how long it actually takes the water or air to cool the opposite medium by a degree. I would think that would be important yes/no?

Sure, it would matter if the intercooler wasn't always exposed to water - but it is always exposed to water no matter how fast the water is traveling (unless you have air in the system). I think what you are trying to say is does it matter how long it is exposed to the exact same water molecules? The answer is yes, but in the opposite way that you think. The less time it is exposed to the same molecules the FASTER it will cool because those molecules don't have time become heat saturated.

Let me ask you this - do your think your hand will stay warmer if you plunged it into an ice cold river that is flowing quickly or and ice cold pond? Is it warmer to stand outside when it is 40* and no wind, 40* and 30mph wind or 40* and 100mph wind? Is there a magical point where the wind is whipping by you so fast that "there isn't enough exposure time" to the individual molecules for heat transfer to occur and therefore the windchill effect reverses itself? Of course there isn't - the faster the wind blows, the greater the windchill effect. Water flow works the same way - the faster it moves, the more heat it will draw out.

 

[Defiant]

Let me ask you this - do your think your hand will stay warmer if you plunged it into an ice cold river that is flowing quickly or and ice cold pond? Is it warmer to stand outside when it is 40* and no wind, 40* and 30mph wind or 40* and 100mph wind? Is there a magical point where the wind is whipping by you so fast that "there isn't enough exposure time" to the individual molecules for heat transfer to occur and therefore the windchill effect reverses itself? Of course there isn't - the faster the wind blows, the greater the windchill effect. Water flow works the same way - the faster it moves, the more heat it will draw out.

We're not talking about a stream or wind. We're talking about a closed system, where the water coming down the stream had just been there moments before to pick up heat, then went to another place to drop it off. If it's circulating too quickly, it won't cycle -picking up heat at one location and shedding it at another- it'll just reach a point of equilibrium. Same as running a restricter in a motor that's running without a thermostat.

 

[thiazole]

We're not talking about a stream or wind. We're talking about a closed system, where the water coming down the stream had just been there moments before to pick up heat, then went to another place to drop it off. If it's circulating too quickly, it won't cycle -picking up heat at one location and shedding it at another- it'll just reach a point of equilibrium. Same as running a restricter in a motor that's running without a thermostat.

If by moments, you mean 18 seconds, then yes (1200gal/hr = 6gal/18sec, which automatically eliminates drag racing from being a concern). Besides, your heat exchanger is capable of removing a certain amount of heat at a certain air velocity regardless of how fast you are pumping the water. If your heat exchanger is too small, it is too small, and you "could" eventually heat soak the water if you are WOT long enough. If it isn't too small, then you won't heat soak the water. Your solution to an undersized heat exchanger is to get a smaller water pump so that it doesn't cool your intake charge as effectively so you won't heat your water up as much. My solution is to get a heat exchanger that matches your setup.

Even if your heat exchanger is undersized, it will still take forever to heat soak. You can only stay full throttle for so long, and if it takes 18 seconds just to circulate the water ONCE, how long will you have to be full throttle before the temperature equilibrates? 5 minutes? Do you know anyone who goes full throttle for 5 minutes straight? You know, as soon as you take your foot off the throttle the undersized heat exchanger gains the upper hand and starts cooling the water again (and your intercooler becomes a heat exchanger too, since the intake charge is no longer being super heated by the turbo). In fact, I bet your engine would over heat before you ever heat soaked your IC water - your engine cooling system isn't made to handle going full throttle for that long either.

 

[604CruisinCroat]

So is the water to air setup good for roadracing or not?

 

[v8slayer]

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Sorry this thread is to long to read so I will just give a summary of what I've found.
During repeated back to back runs shifting through all gears I have found that running 25 PSI my intake temps don't get over 100F ever and my average intake temp is 87F.

Ambient temp that day was 84F.

Spec's
Filter in old I.C. location.
800 hp Water to Air core.
Rousch Cobra water pump.
Second Rad 24"*18"*1".
SlimFan.
Water Treatment.
94mm Turbo.
AEM.

 

[thiazole]

I have the same IC as you and I have similar results whereas when I had an A/A my temps would rise 40+*. That cooler air means a denser air charge entering the engine and more HP. The critics won't buy it though. They are convinced that it is only for drag racing and isn't streetable, no matter how much empirical evidence you provide.

 

[v8slayer]

I have the same IC as you and I have similar results whereas when I had an A/A my temps would rise 40+*. That cooler air means a denser air charge entering the engine and more HP. The critics won't buy it though. They are convinced that it is only for drag racing and isn't streetable, no matter how much empirical evidence you provide.

I agree.
I have had only great results with mine during all types of racing.
The pump size and the second Rad helped most though.

I used to have a $1000.00 Spearco T to B style A to A before and it would get heat soaked. Figure that as it was a monster cooler.

The only catch with mine is I will have to use antifreeze in the winter up here.

 

[604CruisinCroat]

Is there a point to this if you're running meth/water injection?

 

[604CruisinCroat]

Hello? Can somebody answer my question? I think it's pointless running a water to air intercooler if you have meth/water injection but if somebody says different i'd like to hear it!

 

[v8s_are_slow]

Why do ya think that? If it gets the air that much colder, I wouldn't see it as a waste personally.