IC's...Air/Air or Air/Water? [Merged 7-7] intercooler liquid

[kelvinb]

i just purchased my pwr l2a intercooler and will be running this in my 'fun' car with a gt4067

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[Chadillac2000]

Been toying around with the air to water IC idea for a while on the drag car im building, ive done a bunch of research and I should be alright seeing this wont be a daily driver. I know water disapates heat much better than air but my question is what would be better and air to water IC (probably a barrel design to save space) or a big front mount plus alcohol injection, since they will be about the same price in the end.

 

[DSM90AWD]

Another option to consider is running Methanol and no intercooler

 

[TwoLiterLaser]

At the ShootOut there was a tubbed Talon that had an air to water intercooler that was pretty trick. If you can weld, I would go with the air to water intercooler and make it yourself using a cheap eBay intercooler and simple sheet aluminum.

 

[Beanokid69]

I heard that the air to water coolers give you in consistant numbers which makes it hard for tuning.....true or no? what if I were to mix it with a fmic.

 

[DirtyBirdRacing]

Hi,

Why would you mix an FMIC and an air-to-water intercooler? I know formula 1 cars did this in the turbo era, but Im unsure as to why.

If the car is a DD I would probably suggest just a regular FMIC. For dragracing, top speed runs, and autocrossing an air-to-water intercooler is awesome. I would like to see your reasoning behind the "twin" cooling, becasue I am curious as well.

Bill

 

[Beanokid69]

because with rally racing you get all that dirt and grime in the intercooler and it clogs it up, My friend had a air water intercooler and said it wasnt cooling enough alone...so I thought maybe try both at the same time.

 

[tkelly27]

Was he running a separate heat exchanger for the water? You need an air to water, and then a water to air heat exchanger to get the most benefit.

That is, just having cooling water running in a loop without being exposed to ambient air or a cooler source will quickly heat up in a rally situation.

Putting two IC's in line with each other will stack the boost drop that they cause (they add together). Putting two IC's in parallel with each other will cut down the total boost drop (it's something like halving and averaging, I can't put my mind around it right now).

Honestly, a single A/W or a single A/A properly setup is more than enough for whatever you're trying to do to it. Depending on which one you go with, look for reasons why it's not removing heat instead of adding more IC's.

Depending on how you use the A/W IC it can either be very consistent or inconsistent. If you're using it with ice, and all of a sudden the ice melts, well, that's a problem. If you are using it with an ambient air cooler, I don't see why it should be more or less consistent than an A/A unit.

 

[DirtyBirdRacing]

^
I agree. The pressure drop is in line with what I was thinking. With an air to water intercooler with a seperate cooler to cool the water the intake temps and such should be pretty consistent. Are you going for rally racing or rally cross. I ask because I think that an air-to-water intercooler would work for you for rally cross, even just packed with ice water and no seperate cooler( this obviously would not work on the street or for more then short amounts of time). But I think that you will want to stick with an air-to-air intercooler and maybe look at different ways of mounting it to keep it out of harms way. Check out different types of setups on WRC cars because they run air-to-air intercoolers.

Bill

 

[99gst_racer]

What size water pumps are you guys using to circulate water? What GPM is optimal?

 

[skate enjoi]

ill be building my own a/w kit... just waiting on the money

 

[DirtyBirdRacing]

What size water pumps are you guys using to circulate water? What GPM is optimal?

Hi,

Check these out:

http://www.frozenboost.com/product_...=1000&osCsid=294574c1d97cc9df1efaa3d27a45f9c7

http://www.frozenboost.com/product_...=1001&osCsid=294574c1d97cc9df1efaa3d27a45f9c7

Bill

 

[99gst_racer]

Hi,

Check these out:

http://www.frozenboost.com/product_...=1000&osCsid=294574c1d97cc9df1efaa3d27a45f9c7

http://www.frozenboost.com/product_...=1001&osCsid=294574c1d97cc9df1efaa3d27a45f9c7

Bill

Yup. Thats the kind of pump I was gong to use (first link). I got the bilge pump idea from an old thread over on NABR. And it looks like the one they recommend flows about the same as the pump that Spearco sells, so it's looks like that answered my question. Thanks for the links, Bill.

 

[DirtyBirdRacing]

Yup. Thats the kind of pump I was gong to use (first link). I got the bilge pump idea from an old thread over on NABR. And it looks like the one they recommend flows about the same as the pump that Spearco sells, so it's looks like that answered my question. Thanks for the links, Bill.

Glad I could help, I like the first one best as well.

Bill

 

[fst91dsm]

This is my air to water set-up. I love it, love it, love it!!!!!

 

[mini zilo]

There HAS to be some way to be able to do a liquid to air intercooler setup that can be used on the street. Does anybody have any ideas for ways that I could make this possible?

I was reading a thread about these setups while searching the site and I came across this quote from Defiant and it seemed to make sense to me. Anybody care to chime in? Please no personal opinions, I need to talk to people who have the facts.

50°? That sounds awfully low. We routinely run an air-to-air setup in 100°+ conditions, I'd say even keeping the water to ambient would give more benefit than air-to-air due to water's more effective transfer of heat.

 

[absolute_DSM]

I drove a 93 Typhoon for a while, they come stock with a water to air IC. And you dont see those trucks lacking power...

 

[turboglenn]

Wasn't the typhoon one piped with coolant from teh engine radiator system in those trucks? ANd then you modified it to have it's own water supply?

That's the only thing i don't like about most liquid to air setups is that half seem to be setup to use coolant from the factory cooling system in them making the intake temps close to the coolant temps which IMO is way too high.

When you can run seperate water with some dry ice in them, then i think they are great and most of them i've seen have had dry ice or ice water packed in them. But that only lasts for so long before it's heated up and becomes melted and useless. For a DD car i don't see the practicality vs.. a FM air to air unit.

Some one correct me if the ones that use factory coolant somehow get temps below engine temps, because i am curious as to what the supposed benefits are of a system like this. I could maybe see it on long uphill pulls in a truck where 180-190* would be cooler than the 350+ that the turbo could produce under extended loads, but not on a performance based car build IDK??

 

[turbo addict]

The sy/ty's had there own water system. It did use coolant in them so that they wouldn't freeze though. I have a syclone intercooler in my mirage turbo. It works great! It I have a surflo pump, heatercore hose and a stock 92 civic radiator and fan in the rear of the car for my heat exchanger. I later added a 5 gallon fuel cell for a surge tank. With that big of a tank it never heats soaks. I run 22psi on pump (have run up to 27) an run 32-35psi on 110 leaded and after back to back to back runs the intercooler is still cool to the touch.

 

[99gst_racer]

There HAS to be some way to be able to do a liquid to air intercooler setup that can be used on the street. Does anybody have any ideas for ways that I could make this possible?

I was reading a thread about these setups while searching the site and I came across this quote from Defiant and it seemed to make sense to me. Anybody care to chime in? Please no personal opinions, I need to talk to people who have the facts.

Simple. You would use a heat exchanger.
(see diagram below before you read further)

Blue = air/water intercooler
Black = water pump
Gray = heat exchanger

Basically, just mount the heat exchanger in front of the vehicle like you would a radiator or FMIC. The water pump circulates water through the intercooler, where it absorbs heat energy from the air charge. Then it is pushed through the heat exchanger to be dissipated. Think of it as a radiator for your intercooler.

It's only downfall is that when operating at 100% efficiency, the charge temps can only ever get as low as the the ambient air blowing across the heat exchanger. But on a positive note; ambient charge temps aren't that bad. Many of todays air-to-air cores are not even capable of reducing an air charge to ambient. With my Slowboy core, I consistently average about 25* over ambient.

I hope this helps.

 

[v8slayer]

I've seen a lot of hot setups on this thread but one thing concerns me.

The water inlet and outlet on the cores is sometimes low or in the middle of the core.
Would you not have air trapped above the water level which would be either the inlet or outlet for the water supply. I don't see bleed screws or rad caps at the high points on the cores.

You could have as much as half you water space occupied by trapped air which is not good.

Has anyone addressed this?

 

[99gst_racer]

I planned to put a bleeder on mine. I'm all but sure it will be needed to remove the air pocket.

It also helps having the tank/container at a higher point that the IC core when filling the system.

 

[acemas99]

DSMER's:

I am sold on the air to water setup for my car. I've heard great things about spearco's air to water intercoolers, but I have also found another kit which seems to be suitable for my car's power goals. Has anyone heard of the site below, or tried this setup?

Water to Air Intercoolers

 

[DSMunknown]

I ironically came across this site earlier today. Was looking at this FMIC. Hope I can get it customized. I was actually trying to find 2.375 inch silicone couplers for my intercooler piping. This popped up on Google. (I'm still looking. Might just go with a 2.25 inch coupler. )

I wouldn't recommend the A-to-W intercoolers for most DSMers. You have special plans for your ride that would make your selection necessary? There are several reasons most of us go with A-to-A intercoolers. Everything from cost to ease of installation to durability to design simplicity are factors. Keep all that in mind.

 

[mini zilo]

First of all, I have seen numerous Air/water setups on DSMs. I also have noticed that they seem to perform AMAZINGLY. Well, most of the setups I have seen have been on race only cars. I want to be able to use a Air/water setup in my street car. Obviously I would do this using a heat exchanger in place of a front mount.

Now, I know that the water will only be cooled to ambient temperature and such, but I like the fact that when I DO go racing, I can simply dump in some ice, and have a very chilly system. Does this not seem doable? In all honesty, I would have NO problem just bringing some ice out to the car when I want to race. To me, the benefit of an air/water far outweighs the "having to get some ice" thing.


What does everyone think?


I think that the heat exchanger will handle just fine keeping the water temps decent for daily driving, and then when I put in the ice at the track, it will perform verrrrrrry well.


It just seems like that, if done right, water cooling will be superior to air/air.


Thoughts/comments/opinions?