I was dead set on a 4088 until I read this...

[Slippi84]

Twicks, im not sure what the "hardened chromoly cross-shaft" you were referring to does exactly. Is this similar to a 4-spider or am I completely off-base?

Also, I noticed that a race transmission from dogboxracing.com is only about $1,500 vs. about $2650 for a stage 4 from Sheptrans. Does anyone have experience using one of these transmissions on a car with 600+ ft lbs of torque? Is the shep trans worth the extra 1100 bucks?

I see you finally caught up since I been saying to ceck them out and that people use them around here on DD cars about 2 PAGES AGO j/k. Trust me they're the real deal.

 

[1gDSM4g63]

unlmtdndeavor would that s374 bolt on to a standard t4 dnp manifold or would you need a top mount to make it fit?

Why do you want DNP? I'd trust Shearer, Punishment Racing, JM Fab or Straight Line Specialties more to endure and support such a large turbo. And I'm pretty sure if your going as big as a s374 it is not a slip and slide. Big turbos need slimmer radiators and fans, custom fab IC as well as downpipe and intake pipe.

Also, I noticed that a race transmission from dogboxracing.com is only about $1,500 vs. about $2650 for a stage 4 from Sheptrans. Does anyone have experience using one of these transmissions on a car with 600+ ft lbs of torque? Is the shep trans worth the extra 1100 bucks?

I'd say the Dogbox Racing rebuild is actual more comparable to the Shep stage 3 but it you still want to compare it to the stage 4 this is how looks:

Dogbox Racing is $1700 for all the add-ons that the $2650 Shep stage 4 has plus the shift forks, blasted bead and shift rails which Dogbox Racing doesn't offer. That pretty make explain it all. The additionally features that Shep offers is worth the difference and what make it strong.

 

[Slippi84]

Why do you want DNP? I'd trust Shearer, Punishment Racing, JM Fab or Straight Line Specialties more to endure and support such a large turbo.



I'd say the Dogbox Racing rebuild is actual more comparable to the Shep stage 3 but it you still want to compare it to the stage 4 this is how looks:

Dogbox Racing is $1700 for all the add-ons that the $2650 Shep stage 4 has plus the shift forks, blasted bead and shift rails which Dogbox Racing doesn't offer. That pretty make explain it all. The additionally features that Shep offers is worth the difference and what make it strong.

WTF Another 900 for a part that isn't really even the weak link in the system I'll pass. SHep is the man hands down but in my opinion now worh another 900. I'm a local so I may be bias but I have seen these trans first hand hold up to A LOT so take my opinion for what it's worth.

 

[1gDSM4g63]

WTF Another 900 for a part that isn't really even the wink link in the system I'll pass. SHep is the man hands down but in my opinion now worh another 900. I'm a local so I may be bias but I have seen these trans first hand hold up to A LOT so take my opinion for what it's worth.

I'm not fight between Dogbox Racing vs. Shep, they both make quality rebuilds. I too have a full built Dogbox Racing w/ 4-spider, etc... that easily holds 500 ft/lbs and 9k shift with no problem on my minor tuning car with a HX40. But when we are talking about a turbo like the GT40R/42R or S372/4 that puts out 700 ft/lbs that is a whole new level and the bead bearing, shift forks and rail make a huge difference.

 

[twicks69]

Twicks, im not sure what the "hardened chromoly cross-shaft" you were referring to does exactly. Is this similar to a 4-spider or am I completely off-base?

Also, I noticed that a race transmission from dogboxracing.com is only about $1,500 vs. about $2650 for a stage 4 from Sheptrans. Does anyone have experience using one of these transmissions on a car with 600+ ft lbs of torque? Is the shep trans worth the extra 1100 bucks?

The cross-shaft I am referring to, is the shaft that holds the spider gears inside a center differential. Most companies reuse the stock cross-shaft or use a steel shaft and do not have the strength or oiling grooves to really last a long time or handle the abuse.

Also, I have no experience with Dog Box Racing, but I can tell you that you will want to have the upgraded 1/2 and 3/4 shift rails with forged rail ends, and have the 3/4 rail milled to accept an additional shift fork roll pin. Steel shift forks aren't worth it; the Early 1992 ones work just fine.

Using Early 1992 3/4 parts (3rd gear, 3/4 hub and slider, 4th gear) are the strongest I have dealt with that are easily purchased.

I would also reccomend cryotreatment for the input shaft, intermediate shaft and center differential housing at the minimum.

 

[jkimes]

Why do you want DNP? I'd trust Shearer, Punishment Racing, JM Fab or Straight Line Specialties more to endure and support such a large turbo. And I'm pretty sure if your going as big as a s374 it is not a slip and slide. Big turbos need slimmer radiators and fans, custom fab IC as well as downpipe and intake pipe.

1gdsm4g63 I appreciate the input but your not telling me anything I don't already know. I am well aware that the DNP manifold is not the best one out there and has the potential to break with alot of abuse and/or a heavy turbo. However, I'm not a baller (obviously, I drive a DSM and work as a Network engineer ) and right now I can't afford to go spend $1,200+ on a super-bling shearer or full race manifold. I recently got a Home Equity Line Of Credit to do some improvements to my house and since I did all the work myself I have about 7k left-over from the bank loan for my upgrade budget and It looks like I'm gonna have to focus the majority of those funds on my transmission, tcase, axles, and clutch to keep my car from being broken constantly in the future. The DNP mani is proven to work well and only cost's $550 so I'll have to make due with it for now. As for the fan suggestion, I already switched to slimline's when I upgraded my old t25 turbo with the scm6176. I am still using the stock radiator, but I haven't had any overheating problems and I'm pretty sure a 4088 or an s370 will fit without a skinny radiator but I won't hesitate to swap it out if I need to. It looks like I'll be going with a Shep stage 4 tranny with cryotreatment, but I'm still torn over the 4spider issue. Here's what I'm looking at so far for my budget;

Shep Stage 4 w cryo + 4spider Diff: $2600
Borg Warner s372 divided T4 turbo: $1300
PTT twin disk clutch w thick disks: $1100
Bullseye-power 800hp FMIC core: $550
PTE 1600cc injectors : $350
Tial 44mm wastegate: $350
Shearer custom 3.5" 02 elim downpipe: $350
Bushur Racing COP ignition: $350
Tial BOV: $200
MAFT GM translator: $200

 

[1gDSM4g63]

I'd hold off on the COP until you know you need it plus you will need an ignition control unit with the COP and that could running you anywhere from $400-$500.

 

[twicks69]

I'd hold off on the COP until you know you need it plus you will need an ignition control unit with the COP and that could running you anywhere from $400-$500.

No, you don't. All you need to do is wire in the factory plug to connect to the harness.

No aftermarket ignition box is needed at all.

 

[unlmtdndeavor]

Ideally you would want a CDI of sort for the coil on plug set up. Is it necessary to get it wired in, no. Will it be better than stock w/o a CDI, thats up for debate.

 

[We're on Boost]

Edwin, I can't get your "link to dynosheet" to work, for the FP3052 dyno run. Can you get that thing working?

Thanks,
Gary

 

[jkimes]

So, I'm aiming for 600-700whp+tq and high 9's in my full weight 2g. My car made almost 350hp/tq at a measly 17psi of boost with my current scm6176 on pump gas but it seemed to choke after 6k rpm's. Does the power falling off after 6k on this graph indicate that I need headwork?

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Due to some unforseen circumstances my upgrade budget has dwindled to about 5k.
I had originally considered just swapping out the crappy little mitsu hotside on my scm61with a .70 A/R T4 housing for a few hundered bucks, but I would hate to dump extra money into a turbo setup that I know will probably never get me to my goal. The 4088 is awesome, but it's $1800 price tag is a little too steep. According to full-race, an s366 should spool as fast as the 4088 and make as much power as a 4094 and the s372 should spool faster than a 4294 and make 4202 power and both of the BW snails are only around $1300 so I think I'm sold on the borg's over the Garrett snails. Dave at Polk Performance seems to think that my tranny will survive with a larger turbo as long as I baby it since I won't be reving high with the 2.4, but he thinks I need head work. Let me know what you think of this budget expendature.

s366 or s372 - $1300
Bullseye 800hp intercooler - $550
Dark perf. divided T4 mani - $500
Race axles - $400
custom 3.5" o2 elim downpipe - $350
Tial 44mm wastegate - $350
Bushur COP ignition - $350
1600cc injectors - $350
Tial BOV - $200
MAFT - $200
Total - $4500

 

[Slippi84]

So, I'm aiming for 600-700whp+tq and high 9's in my full weight 2g. My car made almost 350hp/tq at a measly 17psi of boost with my current scm6176 on pump gas but it seemed to choke after 6k rpm's. Does the power falling off after 6k on this graph indicate that I need headwork?

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Due to some unforseen circumstances my upgrade budget has dwindled to about 5k.
I had originally considered just swapping out the crappy little mitsu hotside on my scm61with a .70 A/R T4 housing for a few hundered bucks, but I would hate to dump extra money into a turbo setup that I know will probably never get me to my goal. The 4088 is awesome, but it's $1800 price tag is a little too steep. According to full-race, an s366 should spool as fast as the 4088 and make as much power than a 4094 and the s372 should spool faster than a 4294 and make 4202 power and both of the BW snails are only around $1300 so I think I'm sold on the borg's over the Garrett snails. Dave at Polk Performance seems to think that my tranny will survive with a larger turbo as long as I baby it since I won't be reving high with the 2.4, but he thinks I need head work. Let me know what you think of this budget expendature.

s366 or s372 - $1300
Bullseye 800hp intercooler - $550
Dark perf. divided T4 mani - $500
Race axles - $400
custom 3.5" o2 elim downpipe - $350
Tial 44mm wastegate - $350
Bushur COP ignition - $350
1600cc injectors - $350
Tial BOV - $200
MAFT - $200
Total - $4500

Your on the right track with the s372(maybe even a S366) and your goals and with a turbo this big headwork will never hurt. I can't recall do you have a smim and cams already? If not those will be more beneficial to your build. I would never spend $550 on a intercooler though unless it came with piping.

 

[1992awdlaser]

Here is an oil only 4088. Full-Race Motorsports LLC Call us toll free at (866) FULL-RACE

 

[Slippi84]

Here is an oil only 4088. Full-Race Motorsports LLC Call us toll free at (866) FULL-RACE

Why buy a tubro though that spools slower and makes less power though atleast the 4088r is in the same ball park spool wise in not BB spec it's a non brainer borg all the way

 

[twicks69]

So, I'm aiming for 600-700whp+tq and high 9's in my full weight 2g. My car made almost 350hp/tq at a measly 17psi of boost with my current scm6176 on pump gas but it seemed to choke after 6k rpm's. Does the power falling off after 6k on this graph indicate that I need headwork?

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Due to some unforseen circumstances my upgrade budget has dwindled to about 5k.
I had originally considered just swapping out the crappy little mitsu hotside on my scm61with a .70 A/R T4 housing for a few hundered bucks, but I would hate to dump extra money into a turbo setup that I know will probably never get me to my goal. The 4088 is awesome, but it's $1800 price tag is a little too steep. According to full-race, an s366 should spool as fast as the 4088 and make as much power than a 4094 and the s372 should spool faster than a 4294 and make 4202 power and both of the BW snails are only around $1300 so I think I'm sold on the borg's over the Garrett snails. Dave at Polk Performance seems to think that my tranny will survive with a larger turbo as long as I baby it since I won't be reving high with the 2.4, but he thinks I need head work. Let me know what you think of this budget expendature.

s366 or s372 - $1300
Bullseye 800hp intercooler - $550
Dark perf. divided T4 mani - $500
Race axles - $400
custom 3.5" o2 elim downpipe - $350
Tial 44mm wastegate - $350
Bushur COP ignition - $350
1600cc injectors - $350
Tial BOV - $200
MAFT - $200
Total - $4500

First off, you completely forgot about your clutch, and your transmission won't handle it for long -- especially if you launch it, or race it. You should also budget in for SOLID motor mounts, and suspension modifications, roll cage, and the proper tires to get traction. I am not saying it cannot be done on your budget, but I am seriously reccomending running a T4 turbine housing and T4 exhaust manifold on your current turbo before changing to a GT42R variant (BW S366 or larger), as you haven't even seen the full potential of the turbo setup you currently have. It will easily put down over 600whp on a good tune with race gas and high boost on a T4 flange.

Also with running the S372 or larger, you will have to take into effect a 3" IC pipe setup, modified radiator and fan setup, upper radiator hose modification, etc. You will also want to run a custom 5" intake pipe with filter, and that won't be cheap to make -- the materials are expensive. I really hope you are also running a 1G head and thermostat assembly, because it will make it much easier to clear the lower radiator hose when running a larger turbo setup. Running a setup like this has a hell of alot more to it than just slapping on the parts and going off to make dyno numbers or track results -- you will find out that very quickly.

Also, it looks like you can obtain a heck of alot more power out of that turbo with some cam gear adjustments and a good tune on race gas.


Again, you may be able to purchase the parts once, but when it breaks stuff due to the higher power, you will need a heck of alot more money to cover the broken parts than what your budget is for the modifications you propose. Making 700+AWHP is freaking expensive to maintain. Heck, since I installed my GT4088R in 2005, I think I blew up at least 8 race transmissions just from the power/torque the setup is putting out, let alone EVERYTHING else that has broken along the way.

Finally, you can find some of the parts on your list at a better price than you have listed. i.e. the COP setup is the same stuff for nearly every kit made for the DSM; you can easily save a $100 on that part alone. Also, the end tanks on the Bullseye FMIC are really tiny, I hope it is efficient enough for your setup.

You can hit low 10's- high 9's on a T4 SC61 -- but it will take a shitload of weight reduction, an excellent suspension setup, traction, and a darn good driver and maybe a little extra on top of all that.

Good luck,

 

[Slippi84]

DSM's in general have rescripted the going fast for cheap. It used to be you can't have cheap good and fast well with these cars you can...only problem is you wanna go really ####in fast for cheap and that we can't do.

 

[jkimes]

First off, you completely forgot about your clutch, and your transmission won't handle it for long -- especially if you launch it, or race it. You should also budget in for SOLID motor mounts, and suspension modifications, roll cage, and the proper tires to get traction. I am not saying it cannot be done on your budget, but I am seriously reccomending running a T4 turbine housing and T4 exhaust manifold on your current turbo before changing to a GT42R variant (BW S366 or larger), as you haven't even seen the full potential of the turbo setup you currently have. It will easily put down over 600whp on a good tune with race gas and high boost on a T4 flange.

Also with running the S372 or larger, you will have to take into effect a 3" IC pipe setup, modified radiator and fan setup, upper radiator hose modification, etc. You will also want to run a custom 5" intake pipe with filter, and that won't be cheap to make -- the materials are expensive. I really hope you are also running a 1G head and thermostat assembly, because it will make it much easier to clear the lower radiator hose when running a larger turbo setup. Running a setup like this has a hell of alot more to it than just slapping on the parts and going off to make dyno numbers or track results -- you will find out that very quickly.

Also, it looks like you can obtain a heck of alot more power out of that turbo with some cam gear adjustments and a good tune on race gas.


Again, you may be able to purchase the parts once, but when it breaks stuff due to the higher power, you will need a heck of alot more money to cover the broken parts than what your budget is for the modifications you propose. Making 700+AWHP is freaking expensive to maintain. Heck, since I installed my GT4088R in 2005, I think I blew up at least 8 race transmissions just from the power/torque the setup is putting out, let alone EVERYTHING else that has broken along the way.

Finally, you can find some of the parts on your list at a better price than you have listed. i.e. the COP setup is the same stuff for nearly every kit made for the DSM; you can easily save a $100 on that part alone. Also, the end tanks on the Bullseye FMIC are really tiny, I hope it is efficient enough for your setup.

You can hit low 10's- high 9's on a T4 SC61 -- but it will take a shitload of weight reduction, an excellent suspension setup, traction, and a darn good driver and maybe a little extra on top of all that.

Good luck,

Tim, I did not forget about my clutch. I'm currenly using an sbr4000 which will supposedly hold over 650whp and it has barely been used. I know this clutch probably won't last very long, but then again, my transmission probably won't hold up for very long either since it's just a shep stage 1 rebuild. I'm working with a shoestring budget right now so I can't shoehorn a new clutch and transmission into my budget at this time, especially if the drivetrain I have now will get me to my goal without an upgrade.
I realize that 5k is not going to get me to my goal with much reliability, but at this stage of my car's build I just want to know which parts I should buy and install with the money I currently have that will get me to 650+whp within budget. In the future when I have more money to upgrade my drivetrain components I'm definitely going to swap in a stage 4 shep transmission and a PTT twin disc clutch. Please let me know which parts on my list that I could get cheaper or parts that will work better for a similar price and where to find them if you know of any. Thanks!

 

[1992awdlaser]

Why buy a tubro though that spools slower and makes less power though atleast the 4088r is in the same ball park spool wise in not BB spec it's a non brainer borg all the way

I have seen comparisons of different turbos on the dsmlink forums. The journal bearing versions spooled the same as the bb versions. Ball bearing turbos were made for reliability. The only spool advantage they really have is transient boost response. And that is minimal, especially if using nlts. These turbos I'm talking about were on the same cars with nothing else changed on the setup. A couple guys went from non-bb 42's to bb 42r's thinking it would help and it did squat for spool. I know everybody says bb turbos spool faster than their non-bb counter part, but I have seen evidence that they don't. I'm not saying to not look at borg warner turbos either. He was just talking about price and I knew they had the non-bb version for cheap.

 

[jkimes]

Who else makes the COP setup that was referred to earlier that is 100 bucks cheaper than Buschur's $350 model? Also, for those who were questioning me earlier, I already have 3" IC pipes as well as fp3 cams and a magnus intake manifold but it looks like I'll be forking out a few more bucks for a new fan setup and a slimline radiator. Tim suggested that the bullseye power 800hp intercooler has small endtanks and is not efficient enough for my goals, if this is the case, then is there another ultra efficient intercooler core that will support 800+whp for under $700?


btw, here is another revised mod list based on the input I have recieved so far suggesting the new turbo will not fit my upgrade budget;

Polk Performance Stage 4 head w 1mm Oversize valves, full port job, and a 5 angle valve job: $1200
SC6176 T4 .70A/R hotside: $200
PTE large intercooler core: $700?
Dark Performance Divided T4 Manifold: $500
Race axles: $400
Custom 3.5" downpipe: $350
Tial 44mm wastegate: $350
1600cc injectors: $350
Slimline Radiator w fan: $300
COP ignition: $250?
MAFT translator: $200
Tial BOV: $200
Total: $5000

 

[twicks69]

C.O.P. Setup: $140.00 eBay Motors: ECLIPSE,TALON,DSM,TURBO,VR4,COP,COIL ON PLUG IGNITION (item 260272837486 end time Aug-18-08 18:40:00 PDT)

SC6176 T4 .70A/R hotside: $120-160.00
-->Contact Precision Turbo directly, and talk to them about your woes and that you want to purchase the turbine housing directly from them. Be sure you tell them which center section you have (SCM6152SP T350 76-trim "Stage 5" wheel or the larger SC6176SP 76-trim P-wheel). You will likely get it cheaper than $200.00.

Cylinder head: The cylinder head you have mentioned will be useful, but not necessary to make 700whp; you can do it on a stock 1G head with just stock size stainless valves, single or dual valve springs and 272/272 cams; unported. If you already have this setup, it is not worth spending an additional $1200.00 yet. When you want to go from 700whp to 800whp, then purchase the ported cylinder head with oversize valves.

The PTE large core should be around $550 -- maybe less, but you will need to do some searching, otherwise when you are on the phone with them for the turbine housing, talk to them about your goals and the right intercooler setup for your car. Really this IC core is quite nice and it will handle 800whp with no problems.

Also, if you stick with the DNP-style tubular manifold (dark performance), you can fit up to a GT40R with ease, so you do not need to upgrade to a aftermarket radiator =-= just a single slimline fan will suffice on the passenger side of the radiator. A single 12" SPAL slimline 1230cfm puller fan will work without problems ( $95 at RRE ), when used in conjunction with a 185 degree thermostat, a 0.9 Bar radiator cap, the A/C condenser removed and a little trick bumper support cutting to maximize cooling air flow. You can either purchase direct from a shop, or you can do some quick Ebay'in and find similar ones like this: eBay Motors: SPAL 12V GMC A/C AUTO CAR 2160088 FAN VA11-AP7/C 57A (item 350086333022 end time Aug-12-08 17:46:17 PDT) for $17.00!

So there, I just saved you $1800.00. If you decided to go with AEM EMS, you would be able to ditch the MAFT pro and will have an easier time tuning 1600cc injectors for street use -- that saves you another $200, and you can get rid of your DSMLink for a few bucks, easily being able to afford an AEM EMS with a 5-bar MAP Sensor and an AIT sensor, and still have some money left over to pay for gas. Also, you can get away using 1000cc injectors with this setup, and you will save a bit of money and have better luck tuning the car for streetability and idle.

Good luck man!

 

[jkimes]

Thanks again Twicks, I really appreciate it, I think I owe you a beer or two. The power on my pump gas dyno sheet started dropping off pretty quickly after 6k, is this due to the head flowing poorly? Im currently running an unported 2g head with stock valves, fp3 cams, fp dual valve springs and retainers, skunk2 cam gears, and a cometic head gasket. Should I go ahead and have the headwork done now or wait until my next round of upgrades?

 

[1992awdlaser]

What intake manifold do you have? If it is stock that is your problem.

 

[twicks69]

Thanks again Twicks, I really appreciate it, I think I owe you a beer or two. The power on my pump gas dyno sheet started dropping off pretty quickly after 6k, is this due to the head flowing poorly? Im currently running an unported 2g head with stock valves, fp3 cams, fp dual valve springs and retainers, skunk2 cam gears, and a cometic head gasket. Should I go ahead and have the headwork done now or wait until my next round of upgrades?

It could very well be your 2G head just having flow restrictions in the top end == they were much better for mid-range power than top end in an unported state vs. the 1G head. There is likely some powerband you can modify by the adjustment of your cam gears on the dyno.

Either way, I would do the cylinder head after the T4 changeover, as you will likely need to change over to either a ported 2G head (you really don't need to have oversize valves, but they will help), or a unported 1G head. Both will help to produce a better top end powerband along with the proper adjustment of the cams (can gears), and from a good tuner.

You can still make a very solid amount of power on a 2G unported head, and you will likely see more mid-range HP and Tq than you would see with a 1G head, so the car will be more streetable and a bit more fun in the normal driving rpm range (2000-5000rpms).

 

[jkimes]

What intake manifold do you have? If it is stock that is your problem.

Intake Manifold should not be the problem, I have a Magnus intake Manifold.

 

[Slippi84]

I have seen comparisons of different turbos on the dsmlink forums. The journal bearing versions spooled the same as the bb versions. Ball bearing turbos were made for reliability. The only spool advantage they really have is transient boost response. And that is minimal, especially if using nlts. These turbos I'm talking about were on the same cars with nothing else changed on the setup. A couple guys went from non-bb 42's to bb 42r's thinking it would help and it did squat for spool. I know everybody says bb turbos spool faster than their non-bb counter part, but I have seen evidence that they don't. I'm not saying to not look at borg warner turbos either. He was just talking about price and I knew they had the non-bb version for cheap.

I agree that's why I don't think either the 4088r or the non BB version.

I agree going with a build head is usefull always but not needed for your goals. You said you want to know what's best to buy with the money you have to reach your goals I think upgrading your INtake manifold and cams would be money better spent. Not to say the mangus is a bad manifold just for 650whp I think the welds begin to become a liability. You could sell it for $3-$500 and use the money to upgrade to something fitted up with a q45 tb or such and breath a little better up top.