I was dead set on a 4088 until I read this...

[twicks69]

The compressor cover on my scm6176 says .60 A/R do I need a bigger compressor cover too?

I really don't think that you have a SCM6176 -- it is more than likely a SCM6152E which is an off the shelf turbo. Measure your turbine wheel to check the specifications. You have a 3" compressor inlet, and a 2.25" outlet? That is an E-cover. A S-cover has a 4" inlet and a 2.5" outlet (pictured above), and a SP-cover is a surge-ported S-cover.

 

[jkimes]

My car is in the shop at Polk Performance about 200 miles from here so I can't measure the wheel. I bought the turbo from a guy named Martin at a shop called "The Speed Factor" that is apparently defunkt now. The specs he gave me for the turbo (which were also on the reciept) when I purchased it are the same as the ones I have posted in my profile.. scm61 with milled center section and 76 wheel. However, at the time when I bought the turbo (a few years back) I didn't know much at all about turbo hardware so it's possible I didn't get what I thought I was ordering at the time. As I recall from having not seen my car in 5 months is that the turbo's compressor housing has .60 stamped on it and that it also has a 3" inlet and a 2.25" outlet so It sounds like I have an E cover. Should I get a different cover too? If I'm gonna have to drop more than $300 fixing up my old SCM61 to make decent power, I think I would rather just spend a little extra and go ahead and get the Borg 366 or 372.

 

[twicks69]

My car is in the shop at Polk Performance about 200 miles from here so I can't measure the wheel. I bought the turbo from a guy named Martin at a shop called "The Speed Factor" that is apparently defunkt now. The specs he gave me for the turbo (which were also on the reciept) when I purchased it are the same as the ones I have posted in my profile.. scm61 with milled center section and 76 wheel. However, at the time when I bought the turbo (a few years back) I didn't know much at all about turbo hardware so it's possible I didn't get what I thought I was ordering at the time. As I recall from having not seen my car in 5 months is that the turbo's compressor housing has .60 stamped on it and that it also has a 3" inlet and a 2.25" (I think) outlet so It sounds like I have an E cover. Should I get a different cover too? If I'm gonna have to drop more than $300 fixing up my old SCM61 to make decent power, I think I would rather just spend a little extra and go ahead and get the Borg 372.

I think that you should figure out which turbo you actually have before jumping to conclusions of running a GT42R variant.

 

[jkimes]

If your description is correct, then I definitely have an E cover. The guys at Polk are out of the shop next week but when they get back I'm gonna have them measure the turbine wheel. The only reason I am so quick to talk about jumping to a different turbo is because the scm61 seemed to be letting some oil blow by it at one point recently and I would hate to dump a bunch of money into upgrading it just for it to die on me a few weeks later. It hasn't been blowing any smoke lately, but it still makes me nervous.

 

[twicks69]

If your description is correct, then I definitely have an E cover. The guys at Polk are out of the shop next week but when they get back I'm gonna have them measure the turbine wheel. The only reason I am so quick to talk about jumping to a different turbo is because the scm61 seemed to be letting some oil blow by it at one point recently and I would hate to dump a bunch of money into upgrading it just for it to die on me a few weeks later. It hasn't been blowing any smoke lately, but it still makes me nervous.

Well, check for shaft play, damage, etc. Don't you still have your warranty on the turbo? If you are having problems with the turbo, take it off, and send it to PTE (call them first of course, and explain the issues you are having with it. Also explain what you are looking for -- you were told that it was a SCM6176; if your receipt shows that it is, and it actually isn't I would be making whoever you purchased the turbo from, pay for the proper turbo setup it should be. Otherwise, you can just have Precision Turbo upgrade your turbo while it is there to the S-ported compressor cover and a T4 turbine housing, and be done with it.

 

[jkimes]

The shop I bought the scm61 from was called "The speed factor" and is no longer in business. If it turns out that this turbo is an scm6152e then I think I would rather just upgrade to a 4088r or an s366 instead of spending alot of money upgrading the turbine wheel, housing, and compressor cover as well as repairing whatever caused the sporatic blow-by problem on my existing turbo. After reading twicks initial review about how the 4088 spooled faster and made more power over even the full t4 sc6176 as well as how efficient geoff at full-race and others have claimed the s300 series turbo's are in comparison it seems like a no-brainer. I found a bb 4088r for $1599 or an s366 for $1299. I think I can fit either one of these into my budget and I also found out that I can save a few bucks and get better driveability by sticking with a 2g maf and using MAF clamping above 2600hz by utilizing a 3 bar map sensor instead of a GM MAS and a Translator. Does anyone know of a place that sells these turbos any cheaper than I listed above?

 

[twicks69]

The shop I bought the scm61 from was called "The speed factor" and is no longer in business. If it turns out that this turbo is an scm6152e then I think I would rather just upgrade to a 4088r or an s366 instead of spending alot of money upgrading the turbine wheel, housing, and compressor cover as well as repairing whatever caused the sporatic blow-by problem on my existing turbo. After reading twicks initial review about how the 4088 spooled faster and made more power over even the full t4 sc6176 as well as how efficient geoff at full-race and others have claimed the s300 series turbo's are in comparison it seems like a no-brainer. I found a bb 4088r for $1599 or an s366 for $1299. I think I can fit either one of these into my budget and I also found out that I can save a few bucks and get better driveability by sticking with a 2g maf and using MAF clamping above 2600hz by utilizing a 3 bar map sensor instead of a GM MAS and a Translator. Does anyone know of a place that sells these turbos any cheaper than I listed above?

$1550.00 - GT4088R - Jeff at Fuel Systems, Inc. Welcome to Fuel Systems, Inc. This is where I bought my GT4088R from. He is a Borg Warner/Schwitzer, Garrett, Airesearch, Holset, IHI, KKK, Mitsubishi, and Rajay Turbo Dealer/Distributor, along with a distributor of Tial Products.

There is a gentleman selling one "used" for $1400 shipped on RX-7 club forums:
FS: garrett gt4088r - RX7Club.com

Otherwise, I did quite a bit of searching for you, and couldn't find any better prices.

 

[We're on Boost]

using MAF clamping above 2600hz by utilizing a 3 bar map sensor instead of a GM MAS and a Translator.

This sounds interesting. Are you talking about a setup that switches over to speed-density above 2600 hz? I think a 3 bar map sensor will take you to about 30 psi boost - will that be enough for what you want to do?

Gary

 

[jkimes]

There are a couple of guys on the dsmlink forums who have run 9's with a 2g maf using speed density via map sensor "clamping" above 2600hz and are also venting a tial BOV to atmosphere without ill effects. I also found a Q45 throttle body for $75 that might relieve my car's idle problems as well as give me a little more breathing room but I don't think I can afford to switch to a 1g head and a 1g intake mani just yet.

If there is a 30psi restriction when using a 3bar map sensor then what should I use instead?

 

[1stGenTSi]

There are a couple of guys on the dsmlink forums who have run 9's with a 2g maf using speed density via map sensor "clamping" above 2600hz and are also venting a tial BOV to atmosphere without ill effects. I also found a Q45 throttle body for $75 that might relieve my car's idle problems as well as give me a little more breathing room but I don't think I can afford to switch to a 1g head and a 1g intake mani just yet.

If there is a 30psi restriction when using a 3bar map sensor then what should I use instead?

The 3bar will read up to 2bar over barometric pressure (14.7psi) so it will read up to 29.4psi. A 5bar map will be good to 58.8psi.

 

[Slippi84]

Twick are you using H beam eagle rods in your stroker ? People say that above 650whp they don't recomend H beams especially in a stroker.

 

[twicks69]

Twick are you using H beam eagle rods in your stroker ? People say that above 650whp they don't recomend H beams especially in a stroker.

I have been running standard off-the-shelf Eagle H-beams ($300.00) (7-bolt) rods with no issues for over 3 years and over 40,000 miles on them. The car has seen over 1000HP at the crank with no problems. I have also never replaced the ARP rod bolts over those years.

You can go with whatever rod choice you want; it still comes down to precision machinework, precision tuning, and quality assembly.

When I dissassemble my engine this fall, I will post up updates on their condition -- as of now, there are no problems with the motor; I just blew up my turbo, and am taking the engine apart to make sure that there was no damage from the turbo failure.

The rods will likely be fine; I will likely see bearing wear to the inner main bearings (not the thrust) due to the jump-roping effect from the cut-counterweight "butchered" crank from FFWD due to the high boost, and will see some damage to the rod bearings due to the high boost as well -- it is common on high HP setups. I am also still running the Ross .020" over stroker 9.0:1 pistons which were cryo-treated and ceramic coated by FFWD connection and have had no issues with those either. I replaced the bearings and piston rings last spring to "freshen" up the motor; thats it.

There are plenty of other connecting rods on the market which are just as good or better than the Eagle's, but they have worked, and they were light and cheap for a steel rod.

 

[We're on Boost]

If there is a 30psi restriction when using a 3bar map sensor then what should I use instead?

It's like 1stGenTSi said. You should probably get a 5 bar sensor - you are looking for a lot of hp - you might be needing a little more than 30 psi and the 3 bar sensor will be out of range there.

Gary

 

[jkimes]

Twicks, I've always been told that ball bearing turbo's are more durable and have much better transient response than their thrust bearing counterparts. How long did your 4088 last before it grenaded?

 

[twicks69]

Twicks, I've always been told that ball bearing turbo's are more durable and have much better transient response than their thrust bearing counterparts. How long did your 4088 last before it grenaded?

Well, I had much more wear on mine because of the continuous 40-50+psi of boost run all the time. The turbo is designed to make peak power around 37-38psi efficiently; after that, it makes power, but it will be less efficient. I was really WAYYYY OFF the compressor map -- exceeding the pressure map along with being way to the right of the air flow map.

Because of this, you should not expect that the turbo would fail within 2 years on a normal car. I had this turbo on since 2006, and have put on some serious dyno-time (well over 200 pulls), and have had quite a few track passes on it.

The transient response is fantastic, and this turbo has lasted better than any of my previous turbos.

I would buy one again, that is for sure!

 

[Slippi84]

Yeah that was one of the reasons I went with a holset turbo. The borg and holset turbos have been proven to not only like lots of boost they were built for it. Not to mention when they do go you can rebuild them.

 

[jkimes]

What is the holset equivalent of a Borg 366 or Garett 4088 and how much do they cost?

 

[twicks69]

What is the holset equivalent of a Borg 366 or Garett 4088 and how much do they cost?

The Holset H1E:
Compressor inducer: 58.05mm
Compressor exducer: 81.57mm
Turbine inducer - 75.55mm
Turbine exducer - 66.95mm
Peak Flow: 72lb/min

The Holset HX40:
Compressor inlet Diameter: 4"
Compressor outlet Diameter: 3"
Compressor inducer: 56.60mm
Compressor exducer: 74.71mm
Compressor wheel trim: 54.8
Turbine housing outlet: 4" V-band
Turbine inducer - 76mm
Turbine exducer - 64mm
Peak Flow: 72lb/min

In comparison, the Bullseye Power T4-flanged 1.10 A/R housing S362 has:
Turbocharger Name - S362
Compressor Wheel Part # - 300100-1
Compressor Wheel Inducer - 62mm
Compressor Wheel Exducer - 80.6mm
Compressor Wheel Trim - 54
Turbine Wheel Inducer - 76.3mm
Turbine Wheel Exducer - 67.6mm
Turbine Wheel Trim - 79
Turbine Wheel Part # - 310100-5
Turbine Option - Outlet - V-Band
Turbine Option - Inlet - T4
Turbine Option - A/R - 1.10
Horsepower Rating - 350-680

And the Mitsu Housing with the 0.55 A/R S362 has:
Turbocharger Name - S362
Compressor Wheel Part # - 300100-2
Compressor Wheel Inducer - 62mm
Compressor Wheel Exducer - 84.6mm
Compressor Wheel Trim - 54
Turbine Wheel Inducer - 76.1mm
Turbine Wheel Exducer - 66.7mm
Turbine Wheel Trim - 77
Turbine Wheel Part # - 310100-1e
Turbine Option - Outlet - DSM external
Turbine Option - Inlet - DSM
Turbine Option - A/R - 0.55
Horsepower Rating - 350-680


The Holset HX40 with the Pro compressor wheel is a better option, and has a more up-to-date center section and compressor wheel than the H1E. Both turbos have the same turbine wheels in them, and are able to be used with a Bullseye Power (BEP) turbine housing.

This turbo is more comparable though, to a GT3582R or a GT4082 (non-ball-bearing) in wheel sizing and flow.

As for pricing on the Holset H1E and HX40, Ebay is your friend -- they go CHEAP. You would then need to pick up the 0.55A/R BEP turbine housing from Bullseye Power and it may take a few other modifications, but I would strongly reccomend still using an external wastegate.

In all actuality, the HX40 is barely an upgrade over your turbo when comparing to the S366 an GT4088R; you would have to look at the Holset HX-50 to get closer to the performance figures of the GT4088R and the S366.

 

[Slippi84]

true but the hx40 is proven to be a competitor with those big turbos. Bigman21 made 653whp withe the small .55ar bolt on housing. The hx40 w/ .73 t3 or of of the holset hotsides like the 18cm divided will alow you to flow 700whp and still spool as fast if not faster than some of the other options with big t4 housings that flow enough to make that kind of power.

 

[jkimes]

I have already purchased a dark performance divided t4 tubular manifold and a tial 44mm gate. Is there a holset hx40 or hx50 that comes with a divided t4 hotside by default and if so, what A/R would I need if I opted for the holset over a borg or garrett turbo?

 

[Supa Dexta]

Have you looked over that manifold much yet? My flanges were f*cked on the one I got. Garbage.. Hopefully it holds together for a little while.. But getting it to fit was a pain.

 

[dsm-onster]

I have already purchased a dark performance divided t4 tubular manifold and a tial 44mm gate. Is there a holset hx40 or hx50 that comes with a divided t4 hotside by default and if so, what A/R would I need if I opted for the holset over a borg or garrett turbo?

Here's some bullets about the hx40 and hx50 turbos:

--All hx40s come by default with a divided housing with a t4 bolt pattern. The actuall housing entrances are not portmatched to a garrett t4 flange, so some grinding is ideal.

--The h1e has a 58mm compressor inducer and flows only 55-57 lb/min (gt3782 range).

The holset webside is NOT accurate for any of the secs on their turbos. I have the compressor map for it posted on the 3rd holset thread.​

--The hx40 8-blade has a 58mm inducer and is otherwise VERY similar the h1e but flows a little more in the 57-60 lb/min (60-1 or SC60 range; close to a gt35r).

This is the standard hx40 and is most common when looking on ebay. significantly faster spool than a gt35r and nearly the same flow​

--The hx40 6-blade 60mm inducer has put down 650whp in the .55 a/r turbine housing and the compressor map shows 66-68lb/min (garrett t-61 or gt4088r range), 5lb/min more than the gt35r.

The hx40 in the .70 a/r bep housing and 288s spools to 30psi by 4800rpms. With the divided runner manifold and the standard Holset 19cm^2 divided turbine housing, I'd expect to see that number come down at least 500rpms; probably to the range of the .55 ar housing which is around 4300rpms with 288s and 4K with 272s.

Don't let the number 19cm^2 confuse you. These holset housings are NOT measured in the same manner as MHI housings or others. The 18.5cm^2 hx35/h1c and the 19cm^2 hx40/h1e turbine housing is a little bigger than the divided .82 a/r garrett t3 housing. It is likely VERY close to the middle between the size to the t4 garrett .85 divided housing and the t4 garrett .95 divided

With 6-blade hx40 in the SMALL bep housing, badman21 has put down 653whp and spools as fast as a gt3076r. Video of his 602 whp run:

Video of his 602 whp run

The divided housing should yield the same spool speed with MORE flow. Here's a video where at the end you can get a sense of how fast it spools:

YouTube - Turbo Sharky 2g talon video​

--The hx50-55 flows 92lb/min based on the map (garrett t-72 or gt4202r range) and has a divided t6 inlet which is VERY close in size and bolt location to the t4.

Either the turbo or the manifold can be easily modified to accept this. Biglady and Maglin are going to be running the hx52 next season. Biglady will be running a 1.6l (4g61).​

The massflow parameter at the bottem of the above maps needs to be multiplied by .7333 to convert to lb/min.

 

[jkimes]

This looks like a great deal, but it has a divided T3 housing and an internal gate. I will be using a tial 44mm external gate attached to my Dark performance TS T4 Mani. Will I need a divided holset T4 housing instead?

eBay Motors: Holset HX40W Turbo Brand New Authentic (item 270266623488 end time Aug-24-08 21:24:31 PDT)

 

[Slippi84]

This looks like a great deal, but it has a divided T3 housing and an internal gate. I need a divided T4 housing and I be be using a 44mm external gate attached to my Dark performance TS T4 Mani.

eBay Motors: Holset HX40W Turbo Brand New Authentic (item 270266623488 end time Aug-24-08 21:24:31 PDT)

That is the EXACT turbo I got from the EXACT seller too. I'm telling you the turbo you get is mint and is well worth it. You can swap hosuings like I did but trust me you won't need to. I bought a t3 .70ar housing from BEP when I was gonna run thsi on my 420a motor but now that it's going on my new 90 tsi i'm sticking with what it came with. The internal part is easily fixed by welding the flapper door down and taking off the arm that's what I did took less than 30 min. Trust me the 18.5cm housing is BIG and will flow plenty to make over 700whp.

Monster that's the second time I have seen you post that all hx40 comes with t4 divided housings mine as you can see is t3 divided and so is the on in tyhe auction in the add he posed from the same seller. SO I"m kinda confused is this a hybird or was the housing just swapped at some point?

 

[Slippi84]

By the way the add says its' a garret t3 hotside that's kinda misleading. The hotside is t3 like garret but it's def a holset hotside. Hell it says HOLSET in huge letters on the side of it.