How does better internals mean less of a Daily Driver?

[fergulus]

I have been shopping around for built internals, and I was briefly looking at going with overkill and buying a Magnus motor. I asked a few vendors that stock their parts, and when I told them I was only shooting for ~450HP, I was told that Magnus parts are way too powerful for the HP range that I am looking for, and that it would make it impossible to drive like a normal vehicle.

I want to know WHY lighter parts will effect a vehicle once it has been tuned. I am looking to upgrade the internals so that if I push past 25psi, I wont break anything. Why shouldn't I be able to buy the best on the market and only run it at half capacity? I don't want this discussion to be able prices, only performance.

 

[juanpac0]

Because if you're aiming for 450whp you can get a stock 6 bolt with some $60-80 ARPs and call it a day.

 

[DSM-sagacious]

Forged internals alone dont realy affect dd-ness. However, if your planing to butcher the crank, get a super light fly wheel, and aluminum rods, etc., you can expect drivability to suffer from no torque at low rpms due to a lack of rotational energy that would normaly be stored in the mass of the stock parts.

 

[Rob10_99]

Ever have a manual car that couldn't do low idle in stop and go traffic?
Sat in traffic on the freeway today at sub 2mph and it was terribad.

Lurching/jumping at anything under 5mph(guesstimate) and it sucked.

 

[andy4g63]

^^^ What people above said is true.

Regardless, if you have the money for the motor, buy it... When properly tuned, it drives almost like stock car, period.

 

[juanpac0]

Also higher performance parts in some cases have tighter clearances and such that lead to accelerated wear. These parts are meant to take a beating, but not over 150-200k like a stock motor.

 

[fergulus]

I was looking at getting the 2.2L stroker engine, that only Magnus offers. That includes their billet crank (###### not their race crank as its 3k alone), lightweight rods, pistons, etc. I know that the stock internals can hold 450 on EITHER 7 or 7 bolt, but I just want insurance. If I am going to upgrade anything, I want to do it once with the best so that I never have to replace anything.

 

[donniekak]

Also higher performance parts in some cases have tighter clearances and such that lead to accelerated wear. These parts are meant to take a beating, but not over 150-200k like a stock motor.

Forged pistons have larger clearances than stock cast pistons. What people don't understand is that oem is built to take low stress for a long time. Aftermarket is designed for high stress over a shorter service life.

 

[tim4g63fast]

just use eagle weisco or whatever pistos combo you want

plenty of people making around 600hp on that shit

magnus motor is like what? 12k?

good for doing a certain job but not for sticking in a dd and driving on it all the time.

 

[1twistdtalon]

As said above, get a 6 bolt, good internals and you will have 10,000$ give or take to put into a Turbo and supporting mods. You can get everything you need to make 450-600hp and still have left over money for whatever you want. Just my .2 cents

 

[400hp93talon]

My boss has a gsx with eagle rods and pistons and its right at 420whp with 280 cams and it drives great almost like stock except the nasty idle at low rpms but we just turned the idle up a bit and its fine now....what I'm saying is that if it is your daily keep it stock bore and stroke get a good forged bottom end a set of 272's along with 1mm oversized valves(machined head) upgrade the intake and exhaust manifolds along with a throttle body and you should be able to keep stock driveablility and make great power....maybe the aftermarket throttle body would kill it a little but you never know!!

 

[DSMer541]

^^ thats what i did, kept it simple yet strong...eagle rods, wossner 8:1 pistons bored .02 over (wanted to stay as close to stock 6 bolt as possible) stock crank , acl race bearings, and i put a Jackson Auto stage 3 race head on with HKS 272 cams , dual valve springs , +1mm valves on a mitsu MLS and ARP head studs....didnt do main studs ....im using a stock 14b turbo and this car is a beast, im still on break in with only 280 miles so i havent had the chance to really get on it but its great on the street exept i am battling some idle issuses but i think my iac is bad...... and i am shooting for aroung 400hp ,once i get link and a bigger turbo it should be no problem, and im set up to make more if i ever wanted to.

 

[fergulus]

Ok folks, just to clear up some issues. I already spent my 10k on all the other bolt-on upgrades, as stated in my profile. I've got the fuel, intake/exhaust manis, larger turbo, better piping, FMIC, and I even spent the money on good suspension, as well as fixing up broken cosmetic parts. The only thing internal that I have messed with is ARP head studs. I'm only hitting 25pii right now, so I am straight. I've got a set of BC272s on there now, with some Kelfords waiting for me when I get back home.

As most of us always are aspriring to something, I am aspiring to do road coursing with my Talon. I have bigger cams, and was wanting that touch more displacement to offset the lag of cams and turbo. I am not going to swap in a 6 bolt, as it seems that having a true 7 bolt in working order is rare these days.

It does make sense, what y'all are saying about tolerances though, wearing out faster because everything has less clearance.

 

[400hp93talon]

Just like to see a brother spend money wisely dude!!

 

[1twistdtalon]

You asked us what we thought. And we told you. There is good reason its rare to see 7 bolt engine in built 2g's they are usually weaker then 6 bolts.

 

[Tanro]

And 6 bolt engine are cheaper around my parts. Older motors from imports fetch less money than newer ones.

 

[delta448]

Depending on what kind of traffic situations you encounter, using a Magnus engine wouldn't have to be a terrible thing. However, I agree with Rob that suffering rush hour traffic is terrible with a lightweight rotating assembly.

As DSM-sagacious alluded to... most people don't understand that the key to a good steady idle is tuning the engine to produce exactly as much (or should I say little?) torque at idle as it takes to keep the engine from either choking and sputtering out or running away from you with an increasing rpm speed.

When you increase efficiency or eliminate mass or friction, by using lightweight forged pistons, forged crankshaft, aluminum rods, low drag / higher sealing rings, a higher final compression ratio and a flywheel with about 1/3 the OEM unit's mass, the engine will need to produce much less torque in order to hold well behaved and civilized in neutral at the same desired idle rpm. Add in lumpier camshafts and it gets even trickier yet, especially to hold a near stock idle because of the unstable vacuum level in the intake manifold causing yet another headache for the tuner.



Why does every single thread in the cylinder head and short block forum have to become a retarded debate about how much better a 6 bolt is than a 7 bolt? I'm getting sick of reading the same thing every time.

 

[fergulus]

delta448 and DSM-sagacious, thank y'all for actually staying on topic. That information was something that I hadn't considered, and exactly what I am looking for. As far as stop and go traffic is concerned, I will have to expect that. I actually had to master that (although with stock internals all around) when I first picked my Talon up in rush hour traffic (my first time driving stick no less). I have the lightened flywheel, and can tell a difference between the two.

I most definately do not want to turn this into a 6/7 bolt debate: there are hundreds of those already and its just a bickering contest.