How did YOU raise your clutch engagement point ?

[miliman13]

I’m interested in hearing from those members who had a very low engagement point.

And how did you resolve it?

I know many will have great advice, but I want to hear specifically from those who had this issue.

I know recently one member suggested the 3000-gt slave with eclipse rod as a solution and to slightly stiffen it - I will try this too.

I’ll probably install a new master for
fun-sies cuz who doesn’t love braking their spine playing contortionist under the dash.



Thanks all.

 

[pauleyman]

Use oem parts where possible, replace worn parts, fork, pivot, master and slave etc. Verify flywheel step height for whatever clutch you use. Bleed thoroughly and adjust. On a 1g make sure the pedal assembly is not broken. Those steps should get you to proper pedal height. The largest issues ive seen are worn parts , (fork and pivot) and improper flywheel height. I do not use shims.

Clutch basic 101: A clutch basics thread for everybody

The following statements are my opinions but they are based on 26 years of wrenching on mitsubishis and 21 of those years on DSMs. This applies to 4g63 cars only. I am not commenting on a 420a clutch although some things do apply.This is not meant to be just DSM specific but could be applied...

www.dsmtuners.com

I'll add this also (I think it's in the tutorial). HUGE mistake to buy a new flywheel and not check it. The only way to KNOW the height on the flywheel is to measure it. Anything else is a guess. Same goes for machining. Measure it, then you will know.

 

[bastarddsm]

I use my modified pedals and a wilwood master. The small diameter 3000gt slave does sorta work, but really increases the losses in the system.

The early ACT plates were better for this too. Fingers and cover were much more rigid so there was much less deflection. Thin ass covers/springs flex and take forever to build up enough deflection to open the clutch.

Remember, it's a system, and it all has to work together.

 

[Adam]

As said, good condition parts working together properly, should give you a pretty decent starting point.
I've had worn masters and worn slaves that caused irritating issues. High mileage parts can tend to wear into a certain area, ie master/slave plunger depth, and then when you change where they operate, the can have issues. Like a slave that's used to returning to a certain point and then when you change clutches it now doesn't release the fork all the way and the throw out bearing just ever so slightly chirps against the pressure plate no matter what adjustments you do.
But to answer your question, typically I've usually gotten away with subtle pedal adjustments under the dash (2g). However I did weld one slave push rod longer about 10 years ago that's still working good. And I've run light weight clutch fork return springs (like a manual linkage setup) in some cases as cheap "bandaides" for other issues.

 

[bastarddsm]

Use oem parts where possible, replace worn parts, fork, pivot, master and slave etc. Verify flywheel step height for whatever clutch you use. Bleed thoroughly and adjust. On a 1g make sure the pedal assembly is not broken. Those steps should get you to proper pedal height. The largest issues ive seen are worn parts , (fork and pivot) and improper flywheel height. I do not use shims.

Clutch basic 101: A clutch basics thread for everybody

The following statements are my opinions but they are based on 26 years of wrenching on mitsubishis and 21 of those years on DSMs. This applies to 4g63 cars only. I am not commenting on a 420a clutch although some things do apply.This is not meant to be just DSM specific but could be applied...

www.dsmtuners.com

I'll add this also (I think it's in the tutorial). HUGE mistake to buy a new flywheel and not check it. The only way to KNOW the height on the flywheel is to measure it. Anything else is a guess. Same goes for machining. Measure it, then you will know.

step height is the LEAST important variable in the system. It's just the easy scape goat for clutch manufacturers and people to lazy to make sure the whole system is perfect.

When the clutch system is setup right, they shift better than this at 9k. This is on a 90 type single synchro trans, built with all old used crap. This one averages about 250ms shifts power to power. I've seen 185ms on a 1-2 in the turbo car with a 2900 and a street disc at 9200 or so. The ppg averages about 200ms shifts using the clutch. it's a little faster shifting clutchless with a throttle blip.

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runner up in banger, backside no prep. edged out by a nitrous coyote. cant complain.

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[pauleyman]

step height is the LEAST important variable in the system. It's just the easy scape goat for clutch manufacturers and people to lazy to make sure the whole system is perfect.

Ive just witnessed machine shops surface only the friction surface and not the pads etc. My main point what you dont know unless you actually measure. Remove the variable.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Measure and write it down. It IS important to be sure of it as you can't change it once its in the car.

 

[bastarddsm]

I've said this many many times. There is not a person that has experimented and tried more clutch setups than i have. I probably have spent over $20k on clutches on my car. (tilton carbon $6k) I've built more transmissions, installed more clutches, made more passes than anyone in the thread.

The actual number that the step height is really isn't that big of a deal. If it's .612" +- probably 0.020 it's good enough. And most importantly, the 0.612" or whatever number everyone quotes is actually far from ideal for most clutches we run these days...

Answer these questions:
1. If clutch manufacturers sell the same pressure plate with discs that vary in thickness up to say 0.030" Why do we freak out when the step is off 0.005" or less.
2. What happens to the step height when the pressure plate warps the first time you drive the car?
3. What happens to the step height when you clamp a 2600lb plate to an aluminum flywheel and it flexes like crazy.


This stuff is comical. I've run the step height all over the place, and there are only 2.5 things that truly matter:
1. You need the pressure plate compressed to that you are in the plateau of the curve and wear won't take you out of it.
2. There needs to be enough clearance so that you can release the disc before the fingers hit the hub.
2.5. You need the fingers to be as close to flat as possible when these conditions are met - but that's not really in your control it's in the clutch manufactures control.

That's it. those 2 points are all that matters when it comes to step height. The number is irrelevant. IDGAF if it happens at .590" or at 0.650" Long we are in the plateau of the clamp load, have enough room to open the clutch, and the pressure plate is so the fingers are flatish we are good.

This isn't parroting what someone else said, this is going out there and pounding the piss out of these cars, and fixing the problem, not band-aiding the symptom.

More examples, In say coyote stock those guys use to shim the pressure plate to tune the launch characteristics of the clutch - effectively not giving a f*** about a step height.
I have some old ACT pressure plates that were very warped. I reground them, and had to take a lot off. I'd guess the effective step height was 0.650"+

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Looks like that setup worked pretty good for me.

In case the point was missed, if your car is not shifting it's very unlikely that the step height is the issue, unless it is very very far off.

Ive just witnessed machine shops surface only the friction surface and not the pads etc. My main point what you dont know unless you actually measure. Remove the variable.

The problem with that is this will 9/10 times make a lower rpm car release the clutch and shift BETTER! And again, sticking to an arbitrary step height does not remove the variable. The optimum step height IS A VARAIBLE!

 

[pauleyman]

The problem with that is this will 9/10 times make a lower rpm car release the clutch and shift BETTER! And again, sticking to an arbitrary step height does not remove the variable. The optimum step height IS A VARAIBLE!

Oh exactly. I have relied on the manufacturer to provide step height and i simply use that.
You have apparently have gone much further with root cause analysis.

 

[bastarddsm]

Oh exactly. I have relied on the manufacturer to provide step height and i simply use that.
You have apparently have gone much further with root cause analysis.

Well when you are competing, if you do what everyone else does, you will never beat them!

 

[rdeis]

I find that the clutch master cylinder rod cannot be adjusted enough to get the release point where it should be because it is too short. I find this problem to be worse on aftermarket masters.

I have had success extending the length of the pushrod with a threaded coupler and grub screw the same size as the rod (8x1.25, I think? you guys can correct me...) This allows me to adjust the clutch master so that the pedal is much higher at the disengagement point. Remember that the hydraulic system is auto-adjusting by nature, so most things that you do between the linkage and the slave will be "corrected" by the hydraulics automatically putting more or less oil in the line so the slave travel is about the same. The adjustment between the pedal and the master will change the travel in the master, and that correction propagates all the way through the system. I've posted photos of my clutch solution in another thread.

Other than that, I agree with the others that worn parts are the biggest problem.

I *really* like the idea of replacing the slave with the Saab hydraulic throwout bearing, but I have not had the opportunity to try it.

I am not a racer running big horsepower with a super-grip clutch, I run reasonable mods to make a street car more reliable and more fun. I have had 4 of these from NT to Tsi since the early days but I've never been hip deep in speed tech. My "nice" car is a 2.4 running 19lbs on a 16G and pump gas that I'm still working the bugs out of. So let that color your opinion of my comments!

 

[chrisman287]

I believe my fork and tob were shot and the ball wasn’t spaced either. Fork used to sit very close to the center of the window. Clutch used to grab off the floor even with an OEM master and the rod properly adjusted.

I didn’t even check the step height of the used flywheel I put in. Spaced the ball with an headstud washer and went with a Competition fork and OEM tob. Fork now sits to the right side of the window. The 2600 has been disengaging great with the 3000gt slave and it doesn’t grab anywhere near the floor anymore.

 

[miliman13]

To Update!

This is what I DID, that Worked for me!
A new Master and a new (3000 GT) Slave.

I'm confident I didn't really need the 3000 GT slave, but I heard it stiffens up the clutch pedal feel a bit, and I was in a real need for that cause mine was very soft.

It makes it feel very responsive; it has made shifting a dream and no issues with clutch engagement and it dis/engages at around the same place as my DD, so the pedal is no longer slammed to the floorboard.

I noticed this combo allowed me to max out the rod length and still allow for back pressure from fork
I gained about 1-2mm of max Slave rod travel from ~13mm to 15mm.

** Disclaimer: flywheel, clutch, pressure plate, forged fork and ball joint - while many years old, have less than 3500 miles on them ** - it just sat for a few years. MC and SC were just old.

 

[diambo4life]

I second what @bastarddsm said. With Coyotes, at least when I installed my McCleod clutch, they are very specific on the clearances needed. We DSMrs honestly never used to be given any damn data/specs by ACT and all these clutch companies we loyally used and I believe contributed to 90% of the shifting problems we faced. Then we did all sorts of bandaids to get the clutches to work. I look back and get really angry after what I currently know. I parked my 800whp+ Galant for years because I got tired of getting the clutch combos to work correctly.

 

[chrysler kid]

Aftermarket master cylinders can be very sketchy and appear to function properly and still be bad. If you are lacking adjustment the master itself could be defective

Always replace the slave and the master at the same time if you don’t know the last time either was replaced.

I had an issue when my original master failed and I installed a new master from the parts store where it lacked adjustment, I put a “bb” behind the rod in the slave and it temporarily gave me the proper adjustments at the master for a few months before the master cylinder started mis-behaving again

So if your master randomly fails and the new master does not have a full range of adjustment it could be bad out of the box and not pushing enough fluid. Before shimming the slave make sure you have properly bled the system

I’d tell you to only run the oem clutch master cylinder but those are very hard to find these days

 

[bastarddsm]

To Update!

This is what I DID, that Worked for me!
A new Master and a new (3000 GT) Slave.

I'm confident I didn't really need the 3000 GT slave, but I heard it stiffens up the clutch pedal feel a bit, and I was in a real need for that cause mine was very soft.

It makes it feel very responsive; it has made shifting a dream and no issues with clutch engagement and it dis/engages at around the same place as my DD, so the pedal is no longer slammed to the floorboard.

I noticed this combo allowed me to max out the rod length and still allow for back pressure from fork
I gained about 1-2mm of max Slave rod travel from ~13mm to 15mm.

** Disclaimer: flywheel, clutch, pressure plate, forged fork and ball joint - while many years old, have less than 3500 miles on them ** - it just sat for a few years. MC and SC were just old.

On a 1g the "jackshaft" between the pedal and the master lever has so much torsional flex the added pressure of the small dia 3kgt slave ends up not really gaining much travel at all. That was one of my first stops when I went down the path to fix the clutch.

IIRC on a 2g the master is right on the pedal, and there is much less flex in the system, so the 3k slave probably works out better.