HKS 272's vs. BrianCrower 280's

[95 TsiAWD]

My scenario is that I have a stroked 2gAWD, fully built head, GT40R turbo, and all other supporting mods. My dilemma is that I currently have HKS 272/272 cams which make lots of power, but what can I say? Everyone always wants more!

I was looking to get some extra UMPH out of my turbo, so I purchased a set of BC Stage 3 cams (280/280). Before I put them in, I wanted to ask people with actual experience with using either/or or both the cams that I'm asking about just to make sure that this is an "UPGRADE" from what I already have.

I'm sure that a lot of people have thought about this topic and never really got any REAL answers due to the fact that Brian Crower was a relatively new company and everyone trusts in the HKS cams quality and capability to make power.

Before posting here, I did a quick search on a few different forums and found some interesting information on evolutionm.net which was a back to back comparison with a few different camshaft companies which includes HKS & Brian Crower.

here's the link: Ams Evo Cam Test - evolutionm.net


The back to back test isn't 100% finished yet, but the HKS and BC cams have already been evaluated on an Evo8, built block and non-MIVEC head (which I would only think would be a better comparison), GT35R @22psi on C16 (on a conservative tune).

The HKS 272's made 456.69HP
BrianCrower Stage 3 (280's) made 452.40HP

I know you're all thinking that I just answered my own question BUT my question really is... "WOULD THE HKS 272 CAM STILL MAKE MORE POWER THAN THE BRIAN CROWER 280'S AT A HIGHER BOOST LEVEL THAN 22PSI??" I was thinking more along the lines of 30-35psi.

If some of you think this is a stupid question.. I'm sorry, I just need an answer before I put these BC 280 cams in. Thanks!!

 

[urbanrcr]

The BC's will give you more up top than the 272's you will feel a noticeable difference. I never dynoed at a lower psi with my bc's vs the old 272's but at higher boost 32-38psi(gt42r) it pulled much harder up top. You'll loose some spool time and mid range tq though.

 

[TurboTiger]

Based on the AMS test, I would conclude that the Brian Crower cams sucks ass. If you compare the BC 280's with other 280's, they suck even more.

 

[desolateboosted]

rofl maybe the cams weren't adjusted and installed straight up which might cause deviations.

 

[JWoodley]

I don't see where an exact replica of cam A can get outperformed by cam B or vice versa.

 

[TSIMonsteR]

Aren't the evo stock cams a good bit better then DSM stock cams? Also, the evo head flows a good bit better then a stock DSM head. A direct comparison to our cars cannot be made.

 

[TurboTiger]

rofl maybe the cams weren't adjusted and installed straight up which might cause deviations.

5. Stock cams vs. Brian Crower stage 3 (280)
Rough idle, sounds mean but power was off. Cams needed to be degreed, were off by 3-5 degrees per cam.

 

[TurboTiger]

I don't see where an exact replica of cam A can get outperformed by cam B or vice versa.

Too bad they're not exact replicas of HKS cams.

 

[ihatedsms]

Hks 272s made more power then crower 280s on a cam test i saw floating around the internet. KEEP THEM

 

[droppinbottom]

Based on the AMS test, I would conclude that the Brian Crower cams sucks ass. If you compare the BC 280's with other 280's, they suck even more.

Just wondering do you have either of these cams mentioned or have you ever had them? Not trying to flame just asking.



Correct me if I am wrong here because I did not read the comparison tests. Did the evo they used for comparison have new springs and retainers? The BC 280's do require upgraded springs and retainers.

What was the rpm cut off? I would assume the BC cams would perform better up top but that is just a assumption.

I have never had the hks cams so I can not give a direct comparison. Is cost being taken into consideration here either as I am pretty sure the BC cams cost quite a bit less than hks.

 

[TurboTiger]

See the link in post #1 here for cam tests on evolutionm.net

8500rpm was the redline, according to post #23 on evolutionm.net

And the "test floating around the internet" was referenced in OP's post #1

Actually for the evo's, one of the local tuners here in the bay area for evo's had good success with blox cams. They're cheap, and make about the same power as hks 272's. Those might be indeed closer to a copy of the hks cams. Though there was one incident of a bad cam causing weird power problems. Probably an isolated incident though.

 

[ihatedsms]

That is not the cam test i was talking about actaully. Its done on a DSM not an evo.

 

[ihatedsms]

DSM CAM TEST

Crower - Stage 3 (280's)
Peak HP: 322.6
Peak TRQ: 314.0
Spool up on street: much slower than stock (the worst of all the cams) with full boost hitting by 3.6-3.7K RPM and a definite loss in power off boost compared to stock cams

HKS 272 Intake 272 Exhaust
Peak HP: 325.2
Peak TRQ: 323.4
Spool up on street: Slower than stock, full boost by 3.4K RPM in 3rd gear with a slight loss in power in off boost conditions.

Like i said, you will make more power on th HKS 272s, then the crower 280s. and look at the torque diffrences.

I am in no way saying the crower 280s are bad. They make almost as much power as the HKSs but for ALOT cheaper. If you already have HKS 272's then getting crower 280s would be a downgrade even at a higher rpm range.

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[1gDSM4g63]

Based on the AMS test, I would conclude that the Brian Crower cams sucks ass. If you compare the BC 280's with other 280's, they suck even more.

The 280's do the work in the high power band. It would show much better results running 30+ psi or a bigger turbo.

 

[PIMking]

Im still going to get the bc 272's but from the dyno pic I know that I cant run it in real high rpm range.

Also I thought that if you had adjustable cam gears you can retard the exhaust cam 5 degrees and that helps a ton with spool up.

 

[turbizzle]

as far as what power you would make it all depends on your setup, as far as valve train and boost pressure. theoritcally the 280's would make more power cause of the longer duration for the intake, but because you went with 280's on both sides you didnt change your overlap at all. if you know how or know some who does, degree both sets of your cams to see at what degree of rotation it starts to open. even if they both had the same rated duration the point at which each cam opens is different. also call and ask the cam maker how much lift is the cam rated at .050" of lift. if the cam dosent excatly match what the cam maker specifys then is in all reality a defective cam and can then be warrantyed for a correct cam. there is no way u can truly and properly tune your setup without degreeing the cams. the article in turbo magazine he was referencing the tuner did degree his cams using a dial indicator and a solid lifter

 

[turbo addict]

These are brian crower280 BrianCrower.com - Brian Crower - BC - Mitsubishi Elipse / Eagle Talon - 4G63 and these are crower 280 Crower Cams & Equipment - Mitsubishi - Camshafts not the same cams. have a friend that has the BC 280 and picked up a good amount of power over comp 2's. The ones in the test are of the crower not brian crowers. Just so you know.

DSM CAM TEST

Crower - Stage 3 (280's)
Peak HP: 322.6
Peak TRQ: 314.0
Spool up on street: much slower than stock (the worst of all the cams) with full boost hitting by 3.6-3.7K RPM and a definite loss in power off boost compared to stock cams

HKS 272 Intake 272 Exhaust
Peak HP: 325.2
Peak TRQ: 323.4
Spool up on street: Slower than stock, full boost by 3.4K RPM in 3rd gear with a slight loss in power in off boost conditions.

Like i said, you will make more power on th HKS 272s, then the crower 280s. and look at the torque diffrences.

I am in no way saying the crower 280s are bad. They make almost as much power as the HKSs but for ALOT cheaper. If you already have HKS 272's then getting crower 280s would be a downgrade even at a higher rpm range.

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[dnhieu]

so the brian crower cams are in need of degreeing to make good power? i plan on spinning my car around 9k and running around 28-30psi in track conditions. what do you guys recomend...

 

[TurboTiger]

so the brian crower cams are in need of degreeing to make good power? i plan on spinning my car around 9k and running around 28-30psi in track conditions. what do you guys recomend...

More like they don't make good power period.

 

[dnhieu]

do you have them?

 

[RipperXX]

Wow I had always wondered about this....And honestly speculated that the HKS's would be better, they always have a more rough idle than ones of comparable duration. There obviously more pricey and we all know for a fact HKS does decent R&D unlike some.



Glad I found this thread, I think it just helped me make my cam choice, GSC S2's look very nice.

 

[projecTSI]

More like they don't make good power period.

Any facts/data behind this? You're pretty much the only person that I have heard of that has been extremely displeased with them. Just want to know what the deal is, and why you don't think they are so good.

 

[RipperXX]

I would guess he is going off of AMS's test results. There 280 cams are still making a couple of hp less than the HKS 272's. I am saving the charts so I can look at them again later and compair side by side a bit easier. But just remember peak hp is not always everything.

 

[projecTSI]

Still have to keep in mind the fact that the Evo is a whole different monster. Remember the whole Magnus smim fiasco? Just because something performs/doesn't perform well in an Evo doesn't mean it won't work well in a DSM. And I do think that if you are looking to get the most out of the cams, they should be degreed in anyways. But I just would like to see some info behind his claims, as I really haven't heard that bad of things about BC cams.

 

[droppinbottom]

Guys, I asked TurboTiger if he had these cams or any cams way earlier in this post and he has never answered. I don't mean to discredit him in any way but his profile says nothing.

I do have the bc 280's installed in my car. I can't give a good answer to anything as I have only had the bc cams and nothing else in my car(but stock cams). I can say that we ended up running mine straight up. I spent about 2 hours with Lucas English on the dyno with my car after the cams were installed and we tried degreeing them to see what would make the best power and ended up setting them back straight up. I am no expert at this and don't claim to be as the whole time my car was on the dyno I made adjustments through link with the help from Lucas and let him handle messing with the cams. This is just what I found for my car at the time. I will be going back to the dyno hopefully real soon since my setup has changed alot and I am sure we will try adjusting the cams again. I definitly can say that these cams were not a waste of money for me. One thing people keep forgetting is that the bc cams with springs and retainers cost me under $500 while the hks cams cost over that for just the cams alone.