HKS 272's vs. BrianCrower 280's

[RipperXX]

projecTSI, AMS claims they degreed the cams in the very first post.

"It's really cool stuff as it's back to back testing on our dyno between all these cams. It was a lot of work to to do it right but worth it. Each cam had to be degreed on a test engine to make sure it was being installed 'straight up' before it went into my car."

Now were the retarded or advanced no. But they were all installed at the same point from what they are saying.




Personally I feel like the BC may be the best bang for your buck. But that does not mean there the best cam. And it only makes since that a set of cams that cost twice as much would preform better. They damn well should!

 

[TurboTiger]

I can't understand how the BC cams can be considered good when compared against the HKS 272's. Based on both AMS head to head tests, the BC280's spool slower, have less peak hp, and pretty much has less power throughout the entire curve.

 

[RipperXX]

Because most DSMers are cheap ass's thats why.



Me personally I am taking a hard look at the GSC S2 and HKS cams.

 

[turbo addict]

They are not the same cams!! BC and crowers are different! You must have missed my other post. that test was done a long time ago.

I can't understand how the BC cams can be considered good when compared against the HKS 272's. Based on both AMS head to head tests, the BC280's spool slower, have less peak hp, and pretty much has less power throughout the entire curve.

 

[dsm-onster]

He's probably refering to the first post where the evo showed more gains with hks 272s than with brian crower 280s.

A disturbing notion that some of you are stating is that more boost gives a cam with more duration a better result. Higher boost would not have made the BC cams perform better.

Anyone know how to convert the dynographs' mph to rpm? The AMS EVO cam test is a 3rd gear pull with an evo VIII. Tire size: P235/45ZR17. 3rd gear ratio: 1.407:1. Final drive: 4.529:1. The dyno charts end at 98.5 mph. The engine rpm for those charts is around 8500.

Let's put this into perspective. The BC cams graph does appear to still rise beyond 8500rpms. But 1500 rpms away from 10K they output less power! Higher peak power means nothing if you only have that for 1500rpms, or 500rpms

FP2 cams cost the same as BC cams and perform better than HKS272 cams.

 

[Black95TSIawd]

I'm not sure if its just an EVO thing or not but a DSMer on the dsmlink boards did his own cam testing.

Built 1g with a 2.4L and a T4 DBB t67. At 25psi and E85 he came up with the following results.

HKS 272: 421whp and 342 torque

BC 280: 469.6 and 358 torque

FP 3x: 461whp and 355.3 torque

GSC S2's: 483.68whp and 366.9 torque

 

[1gDSM4g63]

I'm not sure if its just an EVO thing or not but a DSMer on the dsmlink boards did his own cam testing.

Built 1g with a 2.4L and a T4 DBB t67. At 25psi and E85 he came up with the following results.

HKS 272: 421whp and 342 torque

BC 280: 469.6 and 358 torque

FP 3x: 461whp and 355.3 torque

GSC S2's: 483.68whp and 366.9 torque

Arghhh, because of the original post I returned my BC Stg. 3 and traded my HKS 264/272 for HKS 280 cams and now this?

Maybe the difference is the Evo is running on a 2.0L and the DSM is on a 2.4L. Can someone help me out, do you have the forum link?

 

[RipperXX]

GSC and HKS seem to sure be a safe bet, there also the more expensive at about $500-$700 for a set.

 

[Jst4Cyl]

Arghhh, because of the original post I returned my BC Stg. 3 and traded my HKS 264/272 for HKS 280 cams and now this?

Maybe the difference is the Evo is running on a 2.0L and the DSM is on a 2.4L. Can someone help me out, do you have the forum link?

And tis' be the reason why people shouldn't jump on bandwagons especially if they don't know where they are going.

Here is the graph that the above guy was talking about. Here is the link to it also. I case you aren't a member of there and can't read the post I'll copy it over to here.
DSMLink User Group Forums

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Personally, I'll spend my $270 for cams that perform shy of what $500-$700 cams do.

The FULL facts and long log on the event. The hks triggered the knock sensor on the dyno, even when the engine was 150 degrees. I had the same tune on the car the night before up to 210 coolant temps and the timing map is very low already, so I figured the sensor was picking something up from the dyno. So, we turned the knock sensor off and made a couple pulls to get the graphs. Last pull made @ 9k smacked valves and had to r2 to the bent valves before we could go on.

Next up with new valves and compression of 160-170 again, BC pulls are made. Boost from the start was 3 psi lower, so we add it back in and zero knock was read from the knock sensor.

Next up was the FP3x. The FP's first pull logged lot of knock, 3-4 degree being pulled every time. I didn't like it because it knock everytime same RPM area's, so we pulled more and more timing still getting knock and only making 370-380. So, we took it off the dyno and made a couple street pulls to see if it was dyno related. Street logs still showed knock, near same area's, but a little less. Back on the dyno we went and still, no power so i said the hell with it. A/F are fine, timing is rock bottom, turn the sensor off and make a couple pulls with some timing to break the 400HP area. Made a few pulls and got into BC HP area with the knock sensor off and a couple degree's lower timing. However, last pull we got a real bad oil leak timing belt side. So, we figure cam gear seals might be leaking since we havent changed them.

Next in goes the S2's. Timing map from the HKS and BC is loaded and knock sensor back on. Replaced cam seal, first pull made 462 at 24.5 area boost, zero knock, but
oil shot all over again. So we pull the timing belt off again and replace oil pump seal. Next run we turn the boost up to make it even with other cams 25-26. Made 466, again with oil shooting all over. So, we pull it apart again and check crank seal. Looks to be ok, so clean everything off to run it with the timing cover off to try and find leak. Start car, no leaks, so we figure it boost related. Do a compression check, and found the answer. 120-130-140-130.

Looking back on what happen, I think all the knock from trying to tune the FP's and the point "I" made the mistake in thinking it cant be real knock, it was and damaged piston rings. The first sign of oil shoot all over was on the last FP pull with the senor off and the last full dyno pulls were ugly. Again, this was my mistake as a tuner not just call it quites when I should have.

So, that leaves me to this point now. Cams will be shipped back out today, and I'm here at GSC pulling the engine to re-ring and hone the block. I got a few more weeks before I go to the desert and I'd love to get to the track before I got off for half a year.

I will post the logs soon so every one can run thru are testing. Boost and A/F was logged. I'll even include the logs of the FP's on the street.

The BC280 makes a lot better power then HKS 272's, but idle like crap.
FP3xs idle great, but very tough for us to tune. Maybe others will have better results.
GSC S2 idles good and made the most power on a **** compression engine. There is no REAL way to know how much more power it could have made over the others, but I will say it makes more power then these other cams, no question about it.

So all in all, listen to those whom have listened to others and call the BC cams "junk" and then take a look around at those who are running the cams and making more powa than 272's. Given, if your running a "smaller setup" EVO 3, TD05 18G etc etc then yes the 272's may be a better set of cams for you as you wouldn't lose as much bottom end and wouldn't be able to flow enough up top where the cams really shine.

Here is a video of a friends car with BC 280's in it.

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Same car with those junk cams in it makin a little power

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Oh, and BTW All dyno graphs are with STD correction. All runs E85, same timing map, 25-26PSI.


Also, 1gDSM4g63 I believe that I met you at Muncie Dragway a summer or two back. Was you having some turbo issues around that time period? Do you Doc. Butterfield?

 

[andy4g63]

According to JessGST, she picked up 25WHP from switching from HKS 264/272 to BC 280'S. These are not 272/272, but close enough.

http://static.flickr.com/114/281972440_9e82341aeb_o.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n25/hergsx/GSX/JessDyno.jpg

The first link are 280's ; second is 264/272

 

[dsm-onster]

Don't you guys see that it is about piston/air velocity? The 2.4 benefits from more duration. Air velocity is higher at a lower rpm where there's a longer stroke.

That's why you can't choose a cam based on the results of a 2.4 when you'll be running a 2.0 or vice versa. A 2.0 has to run close to 10000rpms to match the velocity a 2.4 stroker demostrates at 8500rpms (which the is seen in the stroker test). This is also why it is false to state that buying cam gears and adjusting to your particular setup is a waste. Considering there are many different combination setups; intake manifold design, exhaust size/shape, exhaust manifold, different shape/length intercooler piping, different aircharge temps, goals, limits, etc., all affect velocity. Generally, 272 duration (210-213* at 0.05" lift) do better for a 2.0 up 8500rpms as the ams test proves. Generally, 280-288 duration (216-222* at 0.05" lift) do better for a 2.4 up 8500rpms as the dsmlink user test proves.

You can't get too specific and say that cam A does better than cam B. You have to KNOW your setup and UNDERSTAND how to reach your goal to choose the best cam for you. And even then, tweeking the timing will probably still be neccesary to make the most of your purchase.

What would the results be if the timing of all of the cams for all the tests were adjusted for best results?

BTW, Andy. 264/272s are not that close to 272/272s, IMHO. But a good comparison of positive results switching to higher duration, though .

 

[1gDSM4g63]

And tis' be the reason why people shouldn't jump on bandwagons especially if they don't know where they are going.

Well, I have heard good things about BC until I saw these dyno result and that brings uncertainty. I mean if they perform up to par with the best why are they still so cheap?

And I'll admit that I'm a bandwagon hopper but that doesn't mean I don't know where I'm going. I'm setup for 280s and just want best performing.

Also, 1gDSM4g63 I believe that I met you at Muncie Dragway a summer or two back. Was you having some turbo issues around that time period? Do you Doc. Butterfield?

I had turbo issue for numerous but I've never been to a dragway.

 

[TurboTiger]

HKS 264/272 is cannot compare to HKS 272/272. As DSM-onster says, you'll see a shift of powerband as you go higher duration. You'll lose low end power / spool and gain more at the upper rpm. A HKS 280/280 combo should see much higher gains at higher rpm and slower spool with a loss of low end power. The funny thing is with BC's supposed 280/280 compared with HKS 272/272, at least on the AMS evo test, you see that it spools slower and and the upper rpm gains are less, all with a really bad lopey idle. There's no advantage to trading lopey idle and slower spool for less power gains. Don't forget that the BC280's also require a valve spring upgrade.

Just4Cyl, thanks for the dsmlink cam comparison link. That does provide more interesting info, but the amount of problems he ran into with knock, smacking valves, low compression, does not encourage me to consider that test very accurate. Also as DSM-onster stated, it's 2.4 engine, so that changes things alot.

 

[JWoodley]

I'm going FP2s. If I had the extra cash I'd buy the FP2x's and the valvetrain to support them.

EDIT: Why you may ask? Street friendly idle and better gains in the upper RPMs. They can be taken to 8k on the stock valvetrain.

 

[RipperXX]

Stock cams vs GSC S2

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GSC S2 cams show a 29whp gain

stock cams vs HKS 272/272

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HKS 272/272 show a 16whp gain

Test car for those results (This is from AMS's DSM test that was posted earlier)
* 1994 Eagle Talon - 5spd
* 1991 Motor with roughly 40K miles, stock bottom and top end including head gasket
* Turbo: 16G with ported exhaust housing
* Exhaust Manifold: 2G ported
* Intake Manifold: Stock
* Throttle Body: Stock
* MAF: 1G slightly hacked (screw backed out) with K&N filter & stock turbo intake pipe
* Intercooler: Spearco 2-221 core with custom mandrel bent 2.25" diameter piping.
* Exhaust: HRC O2 eliminator downpipe and 3" exhaust with no cat-conv.
* Injectors & Fuel Control: Walbro 255lph Fuel Pump, 510cc/min injectors & S-AFC
* Boost controller: Ric Gillis Manual boost controller, check ball & spring type.
* Gas: 100 octane unleaded
* Ignition: Stock with NGK BPR7ES plugs, timing set to stock specifications

 

[RipperXX]

Looks to me like the GSC S2 cams are coming out on top to me. They did 2nd best in the AMS Evo test if I remember correctly only being beat by the Tomi cams. And beating the HKS cams on the AMS DSM test. There also $200 cheaper than the HKS cams. And didn't really lose any low end or spool up and keep a good idle.

SO dsm-onster, would I be correct in saying these are a nice set of cams for the average 2.0L? I ask because I am thinking these are the bump sticks I want.



I should say that the GSC dyno chart is shown under the GSC S2 cams on AMS's website it was not part of the DSM Test just a chart they have posted up for it above the GSC dyno chart on there website it says "Here's a cam test performed by GSC. The test car was a 1G with the typical bolt-ons and a big 16G turbo at 22 psi. The graph shows the stock cams vs. the GSC S2's. (see graph below)"

So although not the same car, still sounds somewhat comparable.

GSC S2 cams
# Intake 270 Duration 10.80mm peak lift, 107 degree Centerline
# Exhaust 270 Duration 10.50mm Peak Lift, 113 degree Centerline

 

[1gDSM4g63]

A HKS 280/280 combo should see much higher gains at higher rpm and slower spool with a loss of low end power. The funny thing is with BC's supposed 280/280 compared with HKS 272/272, at least on the AMS evo test, you see that it spools slower and and the upper rpm gains are less, all with a really bad lopey idle. There's no advantage to trading lopey idle and slower spool for less power gains.

That's exactly why I returned my BC 280s and went for HKS 280s. It was shocking that the HKS 272s had more gain and very little loss of low end power compared BC 280s by very reputable tuners.

I hope the HKS 280s will have a wire margin gains over than 272s and little low end power loss.

 

[andy4g63]

There ie this guy here on forums: 95gsxracer. He is a wiseman. He recently got blue 1G auto RWD, with big BW turbo. Before that car belonged to Mowery Racing and I had a several conversations with this guy Josh. He convinced me, that he had tremendous gains, just from switching to 280's and later 288's. Both cam came from BC.

Just ask him????

 

[dsm-onster]

I'm going FP2s. If I had the extra cash I'd buy the FP2x's and the valvetrain to support them.

EDIT: Why you may ask? Street friendly idle and better gains in the upper RPMs. They can be taken to 8k on the stock valvetrain.

I've been running fp2xs for several years and ten of thousands of miles with fp2xs and a $100 set of manley springs. The ramp rate between fp2s and fp2xs are NOT that much different.

 

[1gDSM4g63]

There ie this guy here on forums: 95gsxracer. He is a wiseman. He recently got blue 1G auto RWD, with big BW turbo. Before that car belonged to Mowery Racing and I had a several conversations with this guy Josh. He convinced me, that he had tremendous gains, just from switching to 280's and later 288's. Both cam came from BC.

Just ask him????

Switching from 280s to 288s will get you big gains no matter which manufacturer you go with as long as the car is properly setup for it.

 

[boostngst]

GSC S2 cams
# Intake 270 Duration 10.80mm peak lift, 107 degree Centerline
# Exhaust 270 Duration 10.50mm Peak Lift, 113 degree Centerline

The specs on AMS's website are off, here are the specs of the S2 cams

S2 Specs gsc-6003S2
Intake 274 Duration 11mm peak lift, 107 degree Centerline
Exhaust 274 Duration 11mm Peak Lift, 113 degree Centerline

They idle great and make even greater horsepower.
You don't need anyone's approval of what cam to run, if they will fit your needs and goals then pick up a set.

 

[RipperXX]

"You don't need anyone's approval"


What gave you the idea I thought I did? I am just mentioning them a few times because they seem to be such a great cam. They ARE what I plan on going with. I mean for a smaller to mid sized turbo they seem perfect hell I would bet even with the smaller end "big" turbo setups out there they would be great. Good street maners with good gains, whats not to love?

I personally think to many people are using to big a cam on the street. But I guess if people like to put up with a more drag race geared setup then whatever. Me, I am building my car to be good at everything, great at nothing.


P.S. Thanks for making that corection, I had no idea. I thought it was a bit odd though.