Help save your journal bearing turbos!!!

[Indian]

"So for the cliffs notes crowd out there, here is the summary: Do not use Mobil1 10w30 or any other "on
highway" GF-4 oil in your 4G63 motor with any FP high output stock appearing turbo."

What do they mean by "stock appearing?"

 

[sprmotohooligan]

"So for the cliffs notes crowd out there, here is the summary: Do not use Mobil1 10w30 or any other “on
highway” GF-4 oil in your 4G63 motor with any FP high output stock appearing turbo."

What do they mean by "stock appearing?"

Stock appearing means that it looks like a regular MHI turbo from the outside. I.e. How the 68HTA looks just like a regular ol' 16G when its all bolted up to your car, however we all know that beneath the compressor housing lurks a high airflow monster. Same goes for something like the FP Green which looks like a 20G but has a Garrett compressor wheel etc etc

 

[sax_man]

So is Mobil1 10w-30 still ok for those of us on 14b's and 16g's?

 

[knochgoon24]

I'd bump up to a heavier oil on just about any DSM due to the mileage and abuse these cars see. I'm running 5w-40 Shell Rotella T6 Full Synthetic after hearing a lot of good from people. I was having issues with running 5w-30 Valvoline Full Synthetic, blowing turbos may have been unrelated, but I figured I might as well switch it up.

I won't know how well it's doing it's job until I get an oil analysis done. Might do it after the next oil change. I've read that it has a pretty high zinc content. My cat is useless anyway and I don't have to do sniff tests.

Diesel trucks have large journal bearing turbos running 30+psi. I figure if it's enough to protect those turbos, it will protect mine.


I can tell you that my oil pressure hasn't dropped off at idle as the oil wears like it did with other oils.

 

[Indian]

Is there "race" oils that aren't synthetic to be considered using for someone who was planning on doing a break in on a turbo such as the 68hta?

 

[RipperXX]

If anyone wants to do additional reading, you might want to look up the "oil bible" as well. Has some interesting info you may not know about most of the name brand oils out there.

 

[We're on Boost]

Some of the oils that are called "Racing" oils are actually fine for the street, with a normal detergent package and so forth.
Brad Penn "Penn Grade 1", Valvoline VR1 (both the conventional and the synthetic versions), and Mobil 1 Racing 4T Motorcycle oil, all come to mind.

The oil Valvoline makes that really is supposed to be for racing only is called "NSL" for "Not Street Legal". The product info PDF for NSL says that it has a "Low detergent formula".

The racing 4T motorcycle oil - "racing" and "motorcycle", those words might turn you away. Actually it's probably a great street oil for our cars if you want to run a 10w-40. It is definitely ok with the API for passenger car use because it has an SM rating. So why is it "racing" and why is it "motorcycle"? Here's what it says in the Mobil 1 FAQs:

"So how is Mobil 1 for passenger cars different from Mobil 1 for motorcycles?
Additive packages balanced differently for motorcycle engine and transmission operation. For passenger vehicles, fuel economy and emission system protection are higher priorities. These require low phosphorus systems and the use of friction modifiers. Motorcycle oils do not require friction modifiers for fuel economy and for better clutch friction less/no friction modifier is optimum. Motorcycle oils allow the use of higher levels of antiwear additives such as ZDDP (phosphorous)."

So it's different priorities. Hey, make mine motorcycle oil!
The chemist at Brad Penn says the same thing about friction modifiers vs ZDDP. They are compatible with each other only up to a point. Really what we need in our oil for high output engines is ZDDP, more so than friction modifiers.

Amsoil AMO (not the XL) is the best high performance 10w-40 car oil from Amsoil, and it also does not contain friction modifiers.

Valvoline VR1 however does use friction modifiers, along with high ZDDP levels. Same for the Mobile 1 Racing 0w-30 and 0w-50 oils "high level of molybdenum" which is friction modifier.
I'm not sure about the detergent level in Mobil 1 Racing. When you read what their FAQs say about why not to use it on the street, it just says because the high levels of ZDDP might shorten your cat life.

 

[DSMReviver]

This might also explains the long search for the answers of "crank walk" on 7bolts. If these over the counter motor oil are tearing up the baring in the turbos. I can only imagine what could it do to the motor's baring over time. If these 10w- whatever oil manage to do damage in a short period of times it could very well be good hypothesis to observed. If this is the case by the evidence we could save a lot of 7bolt motors and finally put the "crank walk" nightmare to sleep. I like to conduct a test on what i just said, but of course this is only speculations. But, i will be definitely be running better oil like Bred Penn for the future. Good info...

 

[knochgoon24]

It's not the 10w- part that's killing the motors. Almost every car out there runs a 5w- or 10w- oil. Are you really romping on your car while it's cold? That's just asking for trouble.

And the issue isn't with the viscosity rating itself, but from the chemical makeup that provides that viscosity rating.
Newer formulations run friction modifiers that are more friendly to the environment. The new chemicals work fine for most cars people DD, but a race engine (as mentioned, anything putting 100hp/cyl) needs a completely different chemical to hold up to the higher temps and stresses found in race engines.

Their little experiment proved just that.

 

[ulitka]

Amsoil Dominator 15W50 racing oil is my choice, check it out. Comparison "4 ball wear test" lists some of the oils already listed in this thread. It is E85 friendly too!!! The color of the oil is red, I first thought it was ATF, .

Dominator® Synthetic 15W-50 Racing Oil (RD50)

 

[MY1GDSM]

The main problem now with almost ALL 5w-30 and 10w-30 oils among other *w-30 oils is that The EPA forced a drop to 800ppm ZDDP (IE Zinc-Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate) in most energy/gas saving oils...
So most Oils that aren't in the category say a *w-40 oil doesn't have to meet these requirements and have higher levels... .

Why did they lower the levels of anti-wear additives that have been used for 50 years? Well, mainly because the government mandated lifetimes on catalytic converters and the easiest way to conform to that was to drop the phos. levels... See here

 

[We're on Boost]

So most Oils that aren't in the category say a *w-40 oil doesn't have to meet these requirements and have higher levels...

Yeah it does kind of come down to the GF-4 oils being where most of the problem is. I gather it's almost impossible to meet GF-4 with an oil that is thicker than *w-30. So the *w-40 and above weights, many of them may still have reduced ZDDP, but some of them are pretty good. Add to that the oils that are sold with no intention of meeting GF-4, and you actually have quite a few oils to choose from.

The chemist at Brad Penn gave me some good info on this, and on the question of friction modifiers and why they may not always be such a good thing for our purposes. Here's what he told me:

There is a modest amount of friction modifier built into the main detergent inhibitor package that is utilized in our PENN GRADE 1 oils which affords favorable sequence VI-6 fuel economy test results in ILSAC SAE grade 10W-30. A formulator may add additional friction modifier to lighter oils such as 5W-20, and 5W-30 due to tougher test requirements for these grades. Additional friction modifier added to the 20W-50 grade would offer no benefit in the sequence VI fuel economy test because the kinematic viscosity of this grade is much too high to attain fuel economy benefits no matter how much friction modifier is added, similarly for grades 10W-40 & 15W-40. Friction modifiers compete for surface area, too much and anti-wear performance may be compromised.

ZDDP is a time proven additive that has several functions: Antiwear agent due to the formation of chemical reactions on metal contacting surfaces resulting in a lower shear rate than the base metal, Antioxidant, Rust and Corrosion Inhibitor – acts as a peroxide inhibitor which is a precursor to carboxylic acid formation. Engine oils will also employ dispersants and detergents to combat sludge, varnish and neutralize any acids that are formed. The sole function of friction modifiers is a very modest gain in fuel economy. Friction modifiers have a legitimate place in engine oils and have helped save many gallons of petrol, not to mention many dollars for car manufacturers helping them meet Corporate Average Fuel Economy limits (not sure what the fine is today), hence the drive towards lighter oils 0W-20 and 5W-20.

Regards,
John Cannella
Formulation Chemist

I agree with people who said a few posts back that the Forced Performance position is a little confusing.
For one thing, the FP document reads like it applies to any stock appearing FP turbo, and maybe to any high output 4g63 engine regardless of turbo. But the word of mouth is that it mostly just applies to the evo Black and Red turbos which have steel on steel thrust bearings. By that interpretation it wouldn't apply to any of the turbos FP has made for DSM, and it wouldn't apply to the evo White and Green. The "word of mouth" came from TedB and 1 or 2 other people on evom who called FP and were told this. But the official document still reads about the same as it did. I think FP wants wide coverage on whatever they put into writing.

I'm following the idea that the FP oils "in yellow" are ones they feel offer the best possible anti-wear, the GF-4 oils should generally be avoided, and I think there are some oils "in between" the GF-4 and the "yellow" oils that are probably pretty darned good for anybody who doesn't have an evo Red or Black turbo or any other turbo with steel on steel thrust bearings (which might include some PTEs according to posts in another thread in here). These other oils would include some of the oils made to the european ACEA A3 spec, like Mobil 1 0w-40 and German Castrol 0w-30. It would also include some of the diesel truck oils like Mobil 1 5w-40 Turbo Diesel Truck, and at one time would have included Shell Rotella, but I'm not so sure about that oil anymore since some people are saying the good stuff is gone from Rotella.
The ACEA A3 spec requires High Temp / High Shear viscosity to be greater than 3.5 mPa•s @ 150ºC, which is a good thing. The 5w-30 and 10w-30 Mobil 1 oils are lower than that. The Penn Grade 1 oils on the other hand are very good on that consistently across the viscosity grades, although the 0w-30 does miss 3.5 by a hair.

 

[housegsx]

I saw this while browsing through my Eastwood catalog.

ZDDPlus™ - ZDDP Additive for Classic Cars - Agricultural Equipment & More

 

[ramsack]

I think if you run stock engine internals you should stick with what the factory recommends. If you have a built engine who knows who to ask. People may be able to build engines, but there is basically no one out there anymore who practices anything in industry as an art anymore and real knowledge is being lost. An example would be on American Hot Rod, that old Roy guy did lead body repair. I'm sure there are younger people that know how to do it, but they don't know everything there is to know about it. Engines (stock internals) are made these days to be run hard even when cold.

 

[MY1GDSM]

I saw this while browsing through my Eastwood catalog.

ZDDPlus™ - ZDDP Additive for Classic Cars - Agricultural Equipment & More

I seen this as well recently Rislone Engine Oil Supplement

They say At 20% dosage Expect levels of Zinc @ 1700-1800ppm & Phos @ 1500-1600ppm

Not to sure about some of the company's other products though... .

 

[50trimgst]

I've allwaysed used vr1 in chevy small blocks including my 88 chevy truck with 300,000 miles that didn't smoke with this oil

 

[JusMX141]

I've allwaysed used vr1 in chevy small blocks including my 88 chevy truck with 300,000 miles that didn't smoke with this oil

At some point even the VR1's formula changed without notice to users in order to comply with Government regulations for zinc content in oil of street-driven vehicles. It has since changed back to a high-zinc formula and also wears a "not street legal" label to satify the Government officials.

It was explained to me that V8 flat-tappet race cars which were either sponsored by Valvoline or otherwise used Valvoline oil exclusively were having cam troubles shortly after the company removed the zinc from the oil without notification. These racers tried different cam brands all with similar issues. When it was finally tracked down to the oil which was causing the problem, Valvoline finally admitted to removing the zinc and has since fixed the problem.

 

[We're on Boost]

There's a lot of confusion about the Valvoline VR1 and NSL oils. There are 3 of them. VR1 conventional, VR1 synthetic, and NSL. The NSL is not called VR1. All three have the same ZDDP level which is .14% zinc and .13% phos. That is a pretty good amount.
The VR1 oils are fine for street and they even have an SM approval.

Valvoline VR-1 Racing Motor Oil is recommended for engines burning gasoline and full or partial alcohol fuels in track and street service. Valvoline VR-1 Racing Motor Oil is for use in any car, light truck, van, or SUV where API "SM" is recommended(see proper viscosity grade below).

The NSL (Not Street Legal) oil on the other hand is low detergent and is more of a race only oil. As near as I can tell it does not have any API rating.

I haven't found the VR1 synthetic around where I live anywhere, only the VR1 conventional (gray bottle). I think the VR1 synthetic would be a really nice oil though.

Here are pics of the 3:

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[JusMX141]

We always used to sell the VR1 Racing Oil at my workplace but now we have all NSL....I figured the whole line was just upgraded. Thanks for the info!

 

[MY1GDSM]

At some point even the VR1's formula changed without notice to users in order to comply with Government regulations for zinc content in oil of street-driven vehicles.

In the zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (IE ZDDP,ZnDTP,ZDP) that is most commonly used. It's actually the Phosphorus part specifically that they are trying to limit... But they kind of come hand in hand.

One good thing if your using a API certified Oil is the the API is going to stop licensing oils for GF-4 certification soon... Because the move to GF-5 oils that took effect in October.Although the CEC & ACEA seam to have their $hit together a bit better... .

It's seems to me that the the oil company's are actually somewhat paying attention with the new ILSAC GF-5 oils and trying to come up with a solution to these problems buy using the longer chain derivatives of ZDDP and getting the Phos to be be retained in the oil better. Although As far as I know nobody has a certified GF-4/GF-5 oil that can provide the kind of anti-ware / Anti oxidation protection that oil with ZDDP can... .

I recently read a bit of Info from the SEA about a new reformulation of ZDDP that's being tested that replaces the phosphate part with something I can't recall.
So that you still get the Anti-where properties with out 3-way cats being contaminated (although I can't find the link now)

It's a shame that all these new oils don't have the higher Levels of ZZDP though since they are addressing some other issues

Couple things about the new GF-5 oils caught my eye are the

E85 Emulsion Retention

The byproducts of combustion of biofuels such as E85 fuel are water and acids that tend to be very corrosive if not controlled. The retention of the E-85 emulsion is necessary as it helps to minimize the corrosivity that the water and acids from combustion and condensation may cause

Turbocharger Protection

The detergent and dispersant components that go the metal surfaces to keep the engine's parts clean and prevent deposit build-up in the turbocharger, compete against the friction modifier components that go to the metal surfaces to reduce friction and improve fuel economy

In the End it comes down to What We're on boost & I said eairlier if you want an oil that HAS a higher level of ZDDP your best bet is going to be either not run a SAE 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30 oil or get one that hasn't bothered to get API certification because the levels a beyond API/ILSAC requirements.

 

[knochgoon24]

Here's a virgin oil analysis for the Shell Rotella T6 5w-40 synthetic that I've started using. I didn't do the test. Found it.

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The numbers seem pretty good.

EDIT:
Here is another one, linked instead.
http://home.earthlink.net/~alan.m.roberts/Images/voa_Rotella5W-40T6.jpg

 

[SolidBoostTSi]

It's good to know Valvoline VR1 is on the highlighted list That's all I run all year

 

[talontsiboy24]

So mobil 1 synthetic sucks cause it doesnt have enough zinc in it that our performance 4g63s need? What about castrol edge is it better the mobil 1? Castrol edge says:An advanced proprietary formula that provides performance and protection in extreme conditions such as towing, hauling, high and low temperatures, rapid acceleration and stop and go traffic i think with that being said it will be able to protect our 4g63 motors then mobil 1? I was thinkin to give it a try but i dunno anybody use it?

 

[JusMX141]

Castrol edge says:An advanced proprietary formula that provides performance and protection in extreme conditions such as towing, hauling, high and low temperatures, rapid acceleration and stop and go traffic i think with that being said it will be able to protect our 4g63 motors then mobil 1?

Since when does any oil say on the bottle "This product is absolute garbage and should not be used in anything made after 1975". Literally every oil manufacturer is out to convince you that their product is the best, the same as every car salesman is out to convince you that you got a good deal.

 

[MY1GDSM]

So mobil 1 synthetic sucks cause it doesnt have enough zinc in it that our performance 4g63s need?

Did you even read what was all said in the thread?