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Help - Crower 64414 degreeing

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dave_nz

10+ Year Contributor
55
14
Feb 3, 2012
Oamaru, New_Zealand
Hi there, I'm installing a new head onto my block in car. The head has Crower 280's in it.

I have 2x solid lifters in there set to zero lash and check springs.

Here is the cam card:

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The cam card says correct only at 0.050" at the tappet. Which is 0.085" at the valve. I'm measuring at the valve.

First thing - the duration @ 0.050" listed doesn't match the valve event timings listed.

Intake is listed as 196° but if you do the math from the picture it's 180 + 8 + 24 = 212° (this matches my measurements)
Exhaust is listed as 198° but if you do the math from the picture it's 180 + 33 + 15 = 224° (this doesn't match my measurements)

When measuring at 0.085" at the valve I can get the intake cam within spec. (I've retarded 4 degrees for valve clearance)

Measured Intake Opening: -4° BTDC
Measured Intake Closing: 28° ABDC

However the exhaust cam closing event has me baffled. It's out by 31° I must be doing something wrong here but I can't see how. I measured it 3 times. This would be a duration of 180 + 28 - 16 = 192°

Measured exhaust Opening: 28° BBDC
Measured exhaust Closing: 16° BTDC

I'm almost at the conclusion that the exhaust cam is not a Crower 64414 or the cam card is junk - I'm pretty sure it's Crower as that is what I was told when I bought it and it has 64414 on the end.

Please help. What should I do?
 
I think there is some confusion happening. Maybe this will lead you to clearing that up? IDK whats going on but I see some stuff in the numbers you might not have noticed.

Flipping signs of angles:
180+24+(-8) = 196° (like the card says)
180+33+(-15) = 198° (like the card says)

Weird it doesn't match your measurements... are you certain that's not supposed to be 16° ATDC?
180+28+16 = 224 (like the picture says).
Maybe you were tired? Just trying to help, no offense intended. Mistakes happen. Card seems to be total crap btw... maybe I am tired tho...
 
Yeah I keep thinking I must have made a mistake with the 15° BTDC and 15° ATDC for the exhaust closing event. I'm confident it was 15° BTDC though - I measured the exhaust cam first, then went and did the intake cam, then went back to the exhaust again and got the same thing both times.

This is what it looked like: (red line was matching up with pointer, I.e rotated counter clockwise 15°)

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Does anyone have any experience with these cams?
 
Hi there, I'm installing a new head onto my block in car. The head has Crower 280's in it.

I have 2x solid lifters in there set to zero lash and check springs.

Here is the cam card:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

The cam card says correct only at 0.050" at the tappet. Which is 0.085" at the valve. I'm measuring at the valve.

First thing - the duration @ 0.050" listed doesn't match the valve event timings listed.

Intake is listed as 196° but if you do the math from the picture it's 180 + 8 + 24 = 212° (this matches my measurements)
Exhaust is listed as 198° but if you do the math from the picture it's 180 + 33 + 15 = 224° (this doesn't match my measurements)

When measuring at 0.085" at the valve I can get the intake cam within spec. (I've retarded 4 degrees for valve clearance)

Measured Intake Opening: -4° BTDC
Measured Intake Closing: 28° ABDC

However the exhaust cam closing event has me baffled. It's out by 31° I must be doing something wrong here but I can't see how. I measured it 3 times. This would be a duration of 180 + 28 - 16 = 192°

Measured exhaust Opening: 28° BBDC
Measured exhaust Closing: 16° BTDC

I'm almost at the conclusion that the exhaust cam is not a Crower 64414 or the cam card is junk - I'm pretty sure it's Crower as that is what I was told when I bought it and it has 64414 on the end.

Please help. What should I do?
I am not so sure how you are checking but at least the cam card numbers match with formulas. Set a dial indicator in somewhere stable on a retainer with making the indicator rod angle as same as the valve and double/triple check durations at .050" valve lift.
The only thing I see something not exactly correct is the cam card shows the rocker ratio as 1.70, so you may have the lift numbers a little bit more since it's 1.73.

Intake:
180-8+24=196
Center Line:
196/2+8=106

Exhaust:
33+180-15=198
Center Line:
198/2+15=114

Separation:
(106+114)/2=110

Edited : Sorry some numbers were written in reverse
 
Last edited:
Do you have adjustable gears? if you do, simplify things by setting your crankshaft degree wheel at true tdc after using the process to find true tdc, then set your crankshaft at say 8 degrees before tdc hold it there and then move your cam gears until the dial indicator shows that the valve is open to .050", lock the cam gear there and then spin the crankshaft forwards two revolutions and re-check it to make sure its right, unless you doubt the validity of the camshaft grind or cam card there is no reason to use the centerline method, its just another way to do things and another way to double check things are what they are supposed to be. As I said before though, you need a solid lifter to do this stuff, there is really no other way to do it, otherwise just install them straight up. In all honesty alot of guys dont run the cams to the cam card on large cams (280 and bigger) anyway, they end up moving them a few degrees away from each other to remove overlap so that you can have the nice things that a you need in a street car like easier starting on E85, a car that idles, a car that makes vacuum for the brake booster etc, unless your building a race car and need every last thing perfect you can simplify things.
 
All done.

Using solid lifters set to zero lash and check springs.

Here's my cam wheels:

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Exhaust @ 0.85" lift at the valve

EO = 30BBDC
EC = 15 BTDC
Duration = 195
Centerline = 114 - 9.0mm = 148BTDC <- max lift -> 9.0mm = 80BTDC
(148 + 80) / 2 = 114

Exhaust @ 0.50" lift at the valve
EO = 39 BBDC
EC = 5 BTDC
Dur = 214

Valve clearance.

Exhaust - BTDC
16° = 5.9mm (0.232")
12° = 5.2mm (0.205")
8° = 4.9mm (0.193")
4° = 4.8mm (0.189")
0° = 4.9mm (0.193")

Sausage down a hallway kind of thing. However I did only have the headgasket snugged down so not sure how much extra the gasket will compress?

Not sure about the intake cam. It's 11.0mm valve lift. (0.433") So it's definetely not the matching cam to the exhaust. I vaguely remember the guy I bought the head off saying it was some regrind.

Intake - after I retarded it 5°

Centerline = 106. (10mm = 72ATDC <- maxlift -> 10mm = 140ATDC
)72 + 140) / 2 = 106

@ .050” at the valve
IO 9BTDC
IC 42ABDC
Dur 231

@.085 at the valve
IO 0BTDC
IC 32ABDC
dur 212

So much more duration on the intake cam. It's does have 282 scribed into the end of it. Doesn't really match up with anything I can find.

Intake Valve clearance. - Again, only had head gasket snugged. Going to be close when compressed.

0° = 3.70mm (0.146")
2° = 3.47mm (0.137")
4° = 3.3 mm (0.130")
6° = 3.25 mm (0.128")
8° = 3.19mm (0.126")
10° = 3.23mm (0.127")
12° = 3.36mm (0.132")
14° = 3.48mm (0.137")
16° = 3.73mm (0.147")

I've now stripped it down, copper sprayed the headgasket and torqued to 100ft-lb. (after following arp specs for 625's) It's timed back up with intake manifold back on.
 
Last edited:
I dialed in a set of Crower 64416 cams. Just so anyone reading this thread in the future knows the 0.050 lift that Crower states as measured at the tappet is actual measured at the valve itself.
 
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