Head Build

[welfle18]

Alright here what my plans are on the whole build.
2.3L stroker
SMIM
FP 3052 (O2 External 44 tial ect.)
FP exhaust manifold
Looking to make 450 to 500 WHP and still a street driver. Some strip time maybe..
On that note I am looking to rev at 8500 to 9000 RPM and I am really wanting to put some fp2x cams. I plan on putting dual springs on it for the higher revving but what else do you think is needed to make this run to the specs I want.
I have a spare Head and a Block to do this on so time is not an issue. I just want things to be done the right way. Advice would be appreciated to lead me in the right direction. Maybe some comments from someone with the same goals or near the same setup.
Thanks
Chad.

 

[dsm-onster]

Maybe just clean up the seats... Meaning cut out the ridge on the inside of the bowl where the port transitions to the bowl itself. Other than that, your head ports are not a bottle neck at all!

They will be a bottleneck at over 500whp, IMHO. I run fp2Xs. Since you're running a stroker setup just get an adjustable exhaust cam gear and retard the cam about 3 degrees to have the exact timing events and lifts as fp3s if you want. The fp2s are better inclined for the upper revs where a stroker COULD break up. The fp3s are much more fun for the street especially running a stroker. I'd get the fp3s and get an adjustable exhaust cam gear if you want more up top later.

I've wrung my fp2xs to 9K before w/ simple manley singles for YEARS, so don't think you'll need more expensive dual springs to do this. I don't suggest taking a stroker to 9K though, unless you have the proper fasteners/rods. Even a forged stroker setup w/ arp hardware is under alot of stress at 9K.

Knowing that, you will likely need not even to rev to the stock rev limit to reach your goal w/ fp2-3 cams, an SMIM, and a stroker; WRT to flow potential. You're turbo will be under the most pressure. But should be up to the task.

 

[Clutch GSX]

As previously mentioned, there is absolutely no reason to rev a stroker setup over 8500RPM max. If you want a high revving engine think about 2.1L destroked engine. You can research it on the boards.

 

[Spln_Hrd]

The highlight of the stroker imo is that you dont have to rev to 8500+ to make gobs of power, thus letting you use a dinkier transmission setup.

I like to spin thats why I built a 2.0. Either a stroker to 8000 rpms or a 2.1 or 2.0 to 9000 rpms will make the kind of power you want.

 

[welfle18]

Thank you for your input. What do you think would be better to spool an fp3052 a high revving 2.0 or a beefer 2.3. I haven't really had my mind set on revving that high but if its going to add the extra stress there is really no need too. Will it be better though to keep the turbo spooled up or will the extra displacement do that for me? The next question is about the cams, what are the differences in the 2 (fp2/3). Where I am going to see the big difference between the 2. If I decide to not rev high I want a cam that is going to have a better bottom end response to help me spool the turbo or am I way off base here. This is all pretty new to me so sorry if these are dumb questions! Again thanks for your time and input.
Chad

 

[Clutch GSX]

Well the 2.3 storker is going to give you good low end torque and then you can tune your turbo to get good high end HP. Right now I am in the process of building a 2.3L Stroker with a GT35R turbo which is a little more powerful than your turbo but near the same. If I were you I would go with the stroker because there is really no reason to rev high besides you think its cool or you have a really big turbo and little displacement, which you dont. Plus if you build a motor to rev over 9000 RPM you will end up spending a lot more money on parts to buy duel springs, heavy duty head studs upgraded everything etc. Our engines just aren't made to rev high and its just unnecessary. You will love the low end torque of the 2.3 stroker and the smooth powerband will be great for daily driving. When you are racing you wont go below 3500RPM so you wont have to worry about spool. As for cams, if you are going to use this on the street then I would just get 272/272 cams. They are good enough for the turbo you run. Most of you preferences depend on how you tune not so much the parts you buy. Just buy 272's and then you can mess with the timing and tuning to adjust to what you want. Im not familiar with Fp's cams but I think FP2's are the same as 272's. Someone correct me if im wrong. And dont worry about the questions. I was clueless a few months ago. Feel free to ask any other questions.

 

[dsm-onster]

Stick with your stroker plan. Strokers spool turbos earlier than built small displacement engines.

The fp2 is about like the hks 272. The fp3 is like the fp2X but only w/ a different overlap. The overlap dialed in the fp3 is ideal for a stroker setup. The fp2X is the fp2, but with minimally better ramprate. The fp2x/fp3 ramp rate yields a bit more return on a stroker than the same ramp rate over a 2.0 block.

A set of DKS 272 regrinds will be like fp2s/HKS272s. These are far cheaper than any other cam brands. But, you'll need an adjustable cam gear on the exhaust to get the most out of your stroker. There's alot to be gained by tweaking 2.0-designed cams when running a 2.3. Because of this and the better ramp rate, I suggest just getting a set of fp3s and upgraded single springs. You'll be happy and your setup will breath best for the piston speeds of a stroker.

Your stup will have more than enough street maners.

 

[welfle18]

Alright then it is settled stroker it is. fp3's for the cams. Now my final question is when I replace the springs which brand seems to hold up the best or will work the best for my setup. Forced Performance website "FPCam3
Dual valve springs required. STDuals at 1.500-1.530" installed is required. The first camshaft designed with the 100mm stroke crankshaft in mind. Often referred to as the "square lobe", No valve to piston interference issues, and no retainer to guide interference issues. This is a drop in cam in the sense that no issues with geometry or interference exist. This cam produces very broad power bands in stroker engines, easily consuming all available airflow from 800cfm and larger turbochargers."
They are saying dual springs are required any comments on that!
Thanks you, you been an enormous help.
Chad

 

[welfle18]

Oh and I almost forgot to ask are the stock lifters and rockers ok? While I am in there should I replace the valves also. And are ARP head studs strong enough to hold 500whp??

 

[Clutch GSX]

Id get aftermarket lifters, either 3G or redline revised lifters as our lifters tend to tick after a while and you might as well replace them when the head is getting worked on anyways. As for the other parts I would replace them since youre going through the trouble anyways but it depends on how much you want to spend. I'm spending over 10 grand on my new stroker set up and im not even going that crazy so a budget is very important when doing a build. There are always hidden costs. ARPs should be fine as long as you torque them correctly. Stock rockers are ok, stock valve locks (or keepers) are fine but you need to check out the ones you already have to see if you should buy new stock ones. Look for any wear or cracks and make sure the rockers spin easily. You should also think about getting some machine work done to smooth out the engine and make it like new. If you do then youd have to buy bigger valves (1mm over). As for the cams I'd still recommend getting the FP2s and adjustable cam gears and you could use single valvesprings. Check out MAperformance.com for some good deals on all these parts. I have found them to have the best prices and great customer service.

 

[welfle18]

Well I had planned on getting the head machined to make sure that its got a nice flat mating surface with the block, but what I have read about the 1mm over valves is that is not needed!! Am I wrong here or would that be a good idea to do. I don't really have a budget for the project as I said before there really is no time frame here. With that said I am not going to spend millions and will be researching for the best prices. I just want things done right the first time so when installed I don't have to pull it again for a long time you know. MAPerformance has this interesting feature on the head build with a list of parts if someone could check that out and tell me what is necessary and what isn't would be a help too!!!

 

[Clutch GSX]

Well machining refers to any metal work that needs to be done to modify your block so I guess it would depend on what kind of machine work you got done. Im getting my valve holes smoothened so it is necessary for me to get 1mm over valves. As for the budget I don't think it's a good idea to not have a budget or time frame. I'm assuming you dont want to wait 5 years to start driving your car. I dont know how much extra income you have but if it's only a few hundred a month I'd go a different route and have some different goals. But if you don't mind waiting years then thats fine but you might find yourself wanting something more sophisticated in 5 years like a BMW. Tastes change ya know. As for the MAPerformance head building feature I'm not too sure what you mean. If you want I could send you a list of parts that I just bought to do my build which is similar to yours. Let me know.

 

[welfle18]

Well I have a running motor in my car now that I plan on running till my project is done. I have a spare head and block that I am building so that is what I mean by no real time frame. Budget is pretty much the parts and pieces I need without over spending. I don't really know what an engine rebuild costs but i do research on best prices on the parts I need. Yes a list of what you purchased for your head build would be helpful.

 

[Spln_Hrd]

ARP studs will take you to 500 whp no problem. If that is your goal for horse power I suggest a stroker as well, although if you want 800 I think 2.0 or 2.1 is the way to go.

My cylinder head has ferrea comp 6000 standard valves, ferrea guides, ferrea keepers, FP dual valve springs, brian crower 280s. I had it milled as little as possible for extra smoothness, and I let my machinest seat my valves and set my spring height. I also had new guides put in it.

I am very happy with my cylinder head/cams the car starts to really scream at about 4500 rpms and pulls farther than my tach will WTF.

 

[kahl23]

ARPs can hold that power just fine. However, keep in mind that ARPs tend to stretch when you torque them. That means that they can't be reused, or at most they can be reused once. A1 Technology studs might cost more, but they can also be reused over and over again. The difference in price will be made up if you pull your head one or two times. Also, ARP just released some L19 headstuds which are supposedly just as strong as the A1 Technology studs, but they're a little cheaper. They also can be reused.

 

[welfle18]

Well after taking into consideration of what you all have informed me on, I think that I am going to stick with standard size valves, fp3's to go along with the stoker, fp dual springs, fidanza adjustable cam gears, and upon checking the existing rockers and lifters to maybe see if those need replaced or not too. Work has slowed down and layoff is coming soon so the project wont start till at least tax time, but keep this thread in mind because I am going to post pictures while I am building. Thanks to all for the input and you have really helped me out tremendously.

 

[Clutch GSX]

Im pretty sure the general consencous was you do NOT need duel valvesprings unless you are revving over 9000RPM and you DO need revised lifters because stock lifters tend to tick. Give me your email address and Ill send you my excel file with my parts and prices.

Well after taking into consideration of what you all have informed me on, I think that I am going to stick with standard size valves, fp3's to go along with the stoker, fp dual springs, fidanza adjustable cam gears, and upon checking the existing rockers and lifters to maybe see if those need replaced or not too. Work has slowed down and layoff is coming soon so the project wont start till at least tax time, but keep this thread in mind because I am going to post pictures while I am building. Thanks to all for the input and you have really helped me out tremendously.

 

[GVR4592]

Why not go with the FP3x's?

 

[Weenie4]

I am also planning on rebuilding my head. I purchased the VXT SS standard size valves, bronze valve guides & seats, BC single valve springs & retainers, ARP head studs, and machined valve locks. I'm also going to upgrade to regrinded 272 cams when I get the funds. Is there anything else that i should replace that I forgot while rebuilding the head? Nothing is bad on it, I just want the insurance for when I crank up the boost, fuel, and rpm's. Also, how many rpm's and power is safe with the stock bottom end?

 

[welfle18]

Is anyone out there running the fp3 with single springs? I would like to know how they are holding up since forced performance website recommends using dual springs. I don't plan on revving past 8000rpms. I plan on using Manley springs and retainers if there is no problem with running singles.

 

[dsm-onster]

ARPs can hold that power just fine. However, keep in mind that ARPs tend to stretch when you torque them. That means that they can't be reused, or at most they can be reused once. A1 Technology studs might cost more, but they can also be reused over and over again. The difference in price will be made up if you pull your head one or two times. Also, ARP just released some L19 headstuds which are supposedly just as strong as the A1 Technology studs, but they're a little cheaper. They also can be reused.

Just a side. . . Yes ARPs can stretch, but I've had my arps out 5-6 times and everytime they mic to spec. I think it's imperative that you check them when out, but 6-bolt ARPs are definately usable more than twice.

 

[welfle18]

Well I hope and do I hope that after I install the head that I don't need to pull it again. Any wise-men out there run or have advice on running single springs with fp3's? I am picking up some of the parts Thursday and plan on buying my springs here real soon. Any information on this would be greatly appreciated.

 

[dsm-onster]

I run fp2xs. Identical lift, ramp rate, and duration to fp3s; just different centerline timing. I've run manley singles w/ heavy stock valves and retainers for 10s of thousands of miles. For a stroker, you definately DO NOT need dual springs. The ramp rate is only MARGINALLY better than fp2s, which FP boasts the ability to accomodate oem springs.

Fp wants your money for their piece of mind, I suppose .

 

[welfle18]

Thank you dsm-onster for the reply. I plan on getting the Manley spring and retainer kit and some ferrea comp 6000 standard valves. Thank so much for helping me save some money and THE BUILD will be starting soon. Picking up the head and block today...

 

[welfle18]

Well I bought my block and my head today and noticed some damage to the head. Do you think that I will be able to use it. Looks like a busted valve did some nice damage. I dont know much about engines but maybe if it gets machined or something? Let me know what you think. Thanks