Going skimpy on E85

[EclipticalGS]

Well, I finally got a new fuel filter, and stainless filter to rail, rail to AFPR and such.

I have got my hands on a SAFC-II (got it for $50 of a cousin) for a few months until I can get link V3.

I want to start tuning for e85 and see where It'll go for me with my current set-up.

I have a set of 650's and a rewired 190 shooting to run around 18psi until my new set-up is here.

My question is..What should I aim for as in fuel trims/ logger readings for afr's?

I know my WB can switch to E85 stoich but id rather use pump stoich readings

So, the nearest station is like 10 minutes away, and I DD this car. My question is whats the leanest Idle and cruise afr I should shoot for without doing any damage? Also what's a reasonable WOT afr? Ive heard of people going to 12.4 without knock, so let me know.

The reason I say skimpy is because Ill cruise on the highway to work and If my cruise trims are too rich, Ill have to fill up a lot more, because of the whole e85 burns about 15% more than pump.
Thanks

 

[asg1089]

i am somewhat new to e85 but what i can tell you is that your 650's are going to be overrun by e85 for sure. i'm squeezing with my 780's hitting about 99% duty cycle. if i were you i wouldn't even attempt e85 till you at least up the injectors.

as for cruising i would say low 15:1 would be as high as i would go but i keep mine at about 14.7:1.

you have to use e85's stoich because you need it to calculate your global fuel trim.

and as for wot, i have heard of people running high 12's to low 13:1 afr. the thing with e85 is that it doesn't really show knock. so to be safe i would run around mid 12:1 afr.

and e85 uses about 20-30% more fuel than pump gas which is why you will be overrunning your 650's.

hope this helps.

 

[EclipticalGS]

Thanks, just a question, why dont you lean out your cruising afr a little? I mean with e85 being more octane, I thought my idle could be around 15.5 and cruising around 16

 

[asg1089]

umm from what i heard it should be around low 15:1 but that might just be to make sure everything is completely safe. ya know cause it is always safer to have more fuel than not enough. i wouldn't advise to go anymore lean than 15:1 because in my eyes that is like "danger zone" hahaha. but to each his own.

 

[knochgoon24]

You should hold off on E85 until you get v3. You're not going to reap any of the awards of E85 without a way to really advance the timing. The SAFC will kind of do that, but not to the extent you'll want, with no where near the control you'll desire. This car is your DD. If you are going to make the switch, do it right.

And you can't adjust what AFR you'll idle at. The ecu will control that with the closed loop fuel trims. You're stuck just adjusting the SAFC to zero out the fuel trims. You do have a logger, right? Don't even THINK of installing the SAFC, the injectors, or making the switch to E85 until you have some way to log.

You aren't going to save any $$$ cruising on the highway with E85 instead of 93. You gas mileage will decrease by about the same as the price difference. You need a way to adjust the target AFR during closed loop.

Have I convinced you to wait and not switch until you get a real tuning solution yet? If you ask me, the SAFC and SAFC II are a waste of money for 2g guys. Especially if you own a laptop already.


Sell your stock ecu (~$75) and buy a 98/99 ecu (~$150) and an Openport 2.0 cable and EvoScan software (~$200). So for about $275 you have a way to tune and log. With an SAFC, you still need a way to log, so you either get a palm setup (~$60) or the EvoScan setup (~$85). So you're looking at about $200 for a tuning setup infinitely better than a $125-$150 SAFC (the usual cost used).

And now something to make the ECMLink crowd happy.....
If you still decide that v3 is the way to go after that, sell your 98/99 setup for almost no loss and put that money towards v3 once you have the rest of money saved up.

 

[BoostFrenzy]

You should hold off on E85 until you get v3. You're not going to reap any of the awards of E85 without a way to really advance the timing. The SAFC will kind of do that, but not to the extent you'll want, with no where near the control you'll desire. This car is your DD. If you are going to make the switch, do it right.

If you toss a big enough injector at it, a SAFC will get the timing advance you want for E85 .

But yes, the tuning clarity on it is horrible. Get a full tuning solution haha

 

[JayRolla]

I run mid 12 afr's on e85 and it loves it. There is no reason to go crazy lean because e85 dont pick up power from leaning it out like gasoline does. If I run 11.1 afr and lean too 12.5 afr I get very minimal gains compared to if I did that on gas.

I agree that your injectors will be too small to get real gains from e85. 950's IMO would be the smalleset to run but people have made good power with 750's and 100+% IDC's.

 

[EclipticalGS]

ok cool, yeah I have a logger, wb and soon to be v3, but i got this safc for $50, I wanna at least have some fun till july. Ill grab a couple gallons and let ya know how it goes.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

I run mid 12 afr's on e85 and it loves it. There is no reason to go crazy lean because e85 dont pick up power from leaning it out like gasoline does. If I run 11.1 afr and lean too 12.5 afr I get very minimal gains compared to if I did that on gas.

I agree that your injectors will be too small to get real gains from e85. 950's IMO would be the smalleset to run but people have made good power with 750's and 100+% IDC's.

I have seen multiple cars, 30R range and a little larger pick up 35-45whp going from a 11.6:1 AFR to a ~12.7:1 tune with no timing adjustment. Timing just added to the power even more. E85 makes it's power based on it's ability to run leaner and cooler. I have even seen one 35r car pick up 90whp and 100tq from 110 leaded 11.8:1 to E85 and high 12 AFR.

 

[JayRolla]

I have seen multiple cars, 30R range and a little larger pick up 35-45whp going from a 11.6:1 AFR to a ~12.7:1 tune with no timing adjustment. Timing just added to the power even more. E85 makes it's power based on it's ability to run leaner and cooler. I have even seen one 35r car pick up 90whp and 100tq from 110 leaded 11.8:1 to E85 and high 12 AFR.

I agree going from race gas to e85 will net more power as Ive seen it do it. Im just saying that in some cases like mine when I went from 10.9 afr to around 12.5 my gains where minimal. May have been around 20hp. E85 makes power good power at any afr is what I really was trying to say.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

I also think it's an altitude thing. You aren't the first CO or NM person to mention that.

 

[JayRolla]

I was going to mention altitude but I always use that as an excuse. . Mainly to why I cant break a 12 with a 16g up here.

 

[EclipticalGS]

I get nice dense air here in MI, and lots of condensation.

 

[polarmoment]

as for cruising i would say low 15:1 would be as high as i would go but i keep mine at about 14.7:1.

for cruise, you can keep leaning it out until it misfires. i tuned my car to run as high as 17.5:1 at cruise, and i kept the lower boost parts of the map (transitioning to boost up to 5psi) around 14:1 to keep it from dumping fuel on throttle transitions. on my last road trip, i got 27mpg highway with the AC on.

EGTs go down as you pass stoich, and E85 is a bit cooler to begin with.

i didn't even push how lean i ran it. i would venture a guess that you could run as lean as 20:1 with a little bit of timing. you may need a little additional tip in to keep it from stumbling on big throttle deltas from the lean portion of the map.

 

[viprez586]

for cruise, you can keep leaning it out until it misfires. i tuned my car to run as high as 17.5:1 at cruise, and i kept the lower boost parts of the map (transitioning to boost up to 5psi) around 14:1 to keep it from dumping fuel on throttle transitions. on my last road trip, i got 27mpg highway with the AC on.

EGTs go down as you pass stoich, and E85 is a bit cooler to begin with.

i didn't even push how lean i ran it. i would venture a guess that you could run as lean as 20:1 with a little bit of timing. you may need a little additional tip in to keep it from stumbling on big throttle deltas from the lean portion of the map.

I would highly recommend not doing this. Cruising is still a load on the engine.

 

[viperlp01]

18:1 is the threshold where your car will no longer run. Its not smart to run that lean.

 

[polarmoment]

I would highly recommend not doing this. Cruising is still a load on the engine.

Please elaborate. Also bear in mind I've been running lean-burn cruise for 3 years now on a 150k motor without a single issue, and I'm not the only one. It's a perfectly legitimate tuning strategy for E85.

There are a few different strategies, actually. Adding EGR (yes, even under boost) can allow leaning the mixture significantly without inducing knock and without losing BMEP/HP. SAE has a wealth of information/papers on E85. You might be able to find copies of them at a local university with an ME department.

 

[turboglenn]

I haven't read all the replies, but in the cars that i tune and when exchanging notes with a fellow tuner here in my area who like me convinces everyone we tune for to go e85 I like to set them about 15.2:1 on cruise but they will still be very very safe in the 16.2 range (there's a few non-closed loop cars that we've tuned and shot for 16:1 at cruise without any problems at all)

Under WOT the more i learn and tune the more i say this is the one fuel where leaner is not only meaner but better in general... i won't tune any richer than 12.5:1 at WOT with timings in theh 21 - 27* areas at 30psi and pick up no knock.. if i tune to 11.5:1 at 20psi i'll get knock at the same timing

Anyway, hope my .002 helps

 

[jrohner]

18:1 is the threshold where your car will no longer run. Its not smart to run that lean.

My car can definitely run leaner than that (had it IDLING at 20:1+, much leaner made it idle really bad). When I got my best mileage I was at 17.5:1; never tried cruising leaner than that.

 

[donniekak]

I've been lean burning my car on e85 ever since i was tuning a fresh tune and cruised at 16.5:1 without any problems. I go to stoich at 0-5 psi, and then around 12.5:1 wot. I have found however, that my 9:1 motor doesn't like timing even close to a 7.8:1.

 

[turboglenn]

I've been lean burning my car on e85 ever since i was tuning a fresh tune and cruised at 16.5:1 without any problems. I go to stoich at 0-5 psi, and then around 12.5:1 wot. I have found however, that my 9:1 motor doesn't like timing even close to a 7.8:1.

My new build is 9:1 and i just came off a stock 1g set of pistons (7.8:1) and the trick for me to get the timing numbers back up was going in the 12.5:1 AFR's the 1g slugs would take 20-24* timing at 11.5:1 but the 9:1 Wiseco's and H-beams seem to like it at 12.5 and leaner and that's reading with aftermarket knock systems

But overall i am still seeing about 4* less timing at the peaks , all of them actually with the 9:1, but it's a better pull from a low end and i feel the loss in timing #'s was made up in low end drivability

 

[donniekak]

My new build is 9:1 and i just came off a stock 1g set of pistons (7.8:1) and the trick for me to get the timing numbers back up was going in the 12.5:1 AFR's the 1g slugs would take 20-24* timing at 11.5:1 but the 9:1 Wiseco's and H-beams seem to like it at 12.5 and leaner and that's reading with aftermarket knock systems

But overall i am still seeing about 4* less timing at the peaks , all of them actually with the 9:1, but it's a better pull from a low end and i feel the loss in timing #'s was made up in low end drivability

I cant get more than 13-14* at 4000-5000, 20* is fine up top. This is reading with headgaskets. This is also on an evo 3 rigged to hit 32-35 psi falling to 26 with 272 cams. The 120* ambients don't help at all. I did manage a 112 mph trap blowing the hg in 3rd though.

 

[turboglenn]

I cant get more than 13-14* at 4000-5000, 20* is fine up top. This is reading with headgaskets. This is also on an evo 3 rigged to hit 32-35 psi falling to 26 with 272 cams. The 120* ambients don't help at all. I did manage a 112 mph trap blowing the hg in 3rd though.

REALLY??? Is this all from the OEM knock sensor? Cause i don't like or strust them.. ( i run a saturn alternator and a saturn KS... but the KS is read by a J&S safegaurd unit since i'm standalone)

I noticed my cams would make me get a lot of PK (DKS264/272) after installing them but i can filter and adjust my KS and how it reacts, so i set it up to pick up wht i know as knock, then ignore the rest... For over 8 years i ran no KS at all and only popped on engine tuning oldshool (plug readings etc... poofs of smoke on dyno can show det as well)

But anyway.. I'im running what is now my retarted timing that some on with 18* right out the gate at any boost above 7psi starting as soon as it spools and working my way up to a now conservative 24* by redline at 8500 RPM (sitting at about 22* at 6500 -7k) and shiting at 8200'ish I will see the J&S pull a few degrees on one or 2 cylinders here and there but that's what this box is meant to do, it's keeps the timing on the edge of what your engine will take but it's so ingeniouse that it's retarding the timing ebfore any actuall detonation is occuring) John is one hell of a man with one hell of a product that i'll stand behind on any engine i tune till he makes a better box than the one i'm running

Before the J&S i wouldn't even look at a knock sensor... i had the MSD knocksense for tuning customer cars but it was just as erratic as the DSM unit

John will tailor the algorithym of your system to your particular build and then you still have some tuning control and his boxes are getting more affordable and with more capabilities with every new model

www.jandssafeguard.com

I can litterally set my timing to 27* across the board under boost and wat5ch this unit via the dash monitor as it pulls only the timing that's needed from each cylinder as needed and gives it back as fast as it can... this let me build my timing curve in far less pulls than you'd need on a dyno... set timing high...make pull... retard timing by a few degrees less than what it was puylling at peak and let it do the rest

 

[donniekak]

This is reading blown headgaskets. I doubt it was even knocking, just to far past mbt at peak torque.

The 120* temps out here have put a real damper on my timing advance. I also don't use the 1g knock sensor, but more old school methods. My current tune has 20* up top, but pulled a couple *'s from 3500-5500. Made several pulls, with no coolant push. I won't be going back to the track however, until after the night temps get well below 100*'s.

 

[turboglenn]

This is reading blown headgaskets. I doubt it was even knocking, just to far past mbt at peak torque.

The 120* temps out here have put a real damper on my timing advance. I also don't use the 1g knock sensor, but more old school methods. My current tune has 20* up top, but pulled a couple *'s from 3500-5500. Made several pulls, with no coolant push. I won't be going back to the track however, until after the night temps get well below 100*'s.

Well, it sounds like you know well enough of what you're doing.. I've never had to tune iun 120* ambient but i can imagine after some 103-105* nebraska days here and there and seeing what timing was being pulled by the J&S compared to a 70* evening

But hell... high timing numbers doesn't mean the most power as you know... MBT is all that's needed and once you can get there and make safe reliable powerthat's all you need