FP JB Black Install & First Impressions

[VETDRMS]

Was pretty surprised to see these pop up and at only $799 it seemed like a bargain so I picked one up. I was planning to switch over to a T3 setup this winter and try a .70 housing on the S256 as we were seeing backpressure issues at 27psi on the dyno. I then wanted to have it upgraded to the S259 billet wheel. The FP Black seemed to fit the bill at a third of the cost of that planned upgrade path. I prefer JB for it's ease/cost of service and durability (assuming it isn't ran past its limits).

The only real obstacle I expected when making the switch was adding the water cooling provisions to my setup as I have the 2.4 water pipe with no provisions for cooling. While they may not be 100% necessary I want this to last as long as possible so it really couldn't hurt.

Comparison to BEP S256ETT

The old Borg makes the Black look pedestrian. The turbine on the Borg is a lot bigger. You wouldn't guess the Black is the "bigger" turbo. The S256 is a lot heavier as well.

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Install

Pulling out the Borg went easy as expected. Thankfully the stock 2.0 that came out of the Talon is still complete so all the water lines were easy to source. The fitting that goes into the block was stuck very well and took a lot of heat, penetrating fluid, and patience to get it out. It was a great feeling when it came free without shearing off, which meant this install wasn't going to get delayed a week or more while waiting for a simple fitting.

Michael @ ETS sent me a 4" to 3" 45* fitting for the intake 2-day so I could install this over the weekend. I found some 4" to 3.25" ones online but wasn't sure they could get it to me by the weekend. Michael said they have customers use these for the FP cover and it just takes a little persuation to get it over the inlet.

I was expecting a pretty bolt-on affair with the Black, but the extra 6mm deck height of the 4G64 tossed a wrench into that plan pretty quickly. The compressor cover was hitting the water pipe pretty bad so I first reclocked the compressor a bit (it was facing too far forward out of the box), but the pipe still had to be dented in. The banjo fitting on the block also needed a little clearancing but nothing major.

It was Friday afternoon for the first test fit and although there were some minor clearancing issues there was one major one that was going to derail the whole plan. The exhaust housing is about 1/2" further to the driver's side than the BEP housing, which put the TiAL 38mm gate right into the power steering pump. I hopped online and looked for some shorter gates in the same flange and found the Turbosmart Ultra-Gate 38, which was over an inch shorter than TiAL. I found it on Amazon with 10 minutes left to get it by Saturday *phew* (anyone else love Amazon Prime as much as I do?). The gate showed up Saturday morning and I had everything pretty much ready to go.

The 38mm Ultra-Gate from Turbosmart took care of all the clearance issues. Very cool little gate. The bell mouth is quite a bit bigger than the TiAL so the valve is less shrouded.

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The install took a lot more thrashing than I had expected, if I wasn't in such a rush to get it done it would have been more fun (they are forecasting 10" of snow tonight). I had to get creative to come up with a temporary oil drain. I used an upper hose adapter I had laying around and cut the T25 drain, picked up some 5/8" ID fuel hose (rated to 267F and should be oil safe) to get it on the road for some testing until I can order a mitsu flange to -10 adapter. It doesn't look terrible, but I don't think the fuel hose would have a very long life beside the hot turbine. It doesn't leak, so at least that is a plus.

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I re-did the boost control lines as the gate moved a bit and I wanted it to stay clean. The 4" to 3" adapter from ETS went on OK with a heat gun and some pneumatic oil.

The water lines needed a fair bit of persuading to clear the larger cover of the Black, but it came together nicely. I tapped the thermostat housing for the return line and it came out looking clean.

Impressions

First off I noticed a 5-10psi drop in oil pressure pre-turbo as the Borg had a restrictor on the inlet. Operating pressure and idle pressure is down by about 5psi so there is definitley more flow through the turbo. My sensor is in-line with the turbo feed. How much does this impact pressure at the mains/rods? I am seeing 65-70psi WOT now where I was 70-75psi before.

First drive impression is it (1) whistles less than the S256 and makes more of a whoosh instead of a turbine sound-not important but I liked the sound of the S256 more, (2) spools a little sooner at lower boost, (3) spools later to hit target boost, but this is deceptive due to how the auto loads up-it actually feels reall strong during spool and (4) has a lot less wastegate dump to hit similar boost levels as the S256 so the housing is definitley freer-flowing.

I made the first pull at 17psi and it creeped to 21psi out the top. The new wastegate only came with a 7psi spring, which works fine with the 2-port BCS, but I noticed a little better control if the springs are close to my target boost so I will order some more this week.

I really don't want to run more than 23-25psi until I get a custom 88mm MLS gasket in the car. I'm sure the stock OEM 4g64 composite can take some abuse but I'd rather not push my luck (or my HG!).

Thankfully it was a beautiful sunny day and I got a chance to take it out a few times today. Had to adjust VE a bit around 20-23psi as it was leaning out, so that is a good sign. Attached is a pull at about 22psi. Feels real strong at just 22psi and pulls harder up top. I think once I get the forcedfour box sorted out I expect it to march hard to the planned 8000rpm shift point. I made a few pulls to 8000 and it was pulling hard. The boost was climbing instead of dropping slightly like it would with the S256.

The response is actually really good. It takes about .8s from 4000-5200rpm where it reaches target boost. The auto can be a bit deceiving to compare spool as it loads it up a lot different than a manual. The power comes on a lot smoother than the 256. Also, the wastegate dump is quite a bit quieter, which I think would suggest lower backpressure at the same boost level.

I did one short brake stall and was seeing about 10psi at 3500rpm but it was a little lazy to get there. This is where I notice the change from sea-level the most. I could have held it and got it up to 4000+rpm but I am on a 2-spider center at the moment.

I am sure at 25-30psi it will absolutely rip on this combo. Feel free to poke around the log.

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Unfortunately the track here is already closed and I no longer live 10 minutes from the English Racing dyno so I am not sure when I will have any comparable data. I think I have some logs of the Borg at the same boost so I will take a look.

The difference isn't night & day, but I am sure the Black has a lot more left in it once past the point the S256 started to fall off. It feels about as strong at 22psi as the S256 was at 25psi. It's hard to quantify with the butt dyno but it feels more responsive and smoother like the setup is freer-flowing. Time will tell regarding durability and ultimate performance, but so far so good. Thanks FP!

 

[92AWDHX40]

Nice numbers im so tempted to grab one for the price, and a bolt on affair, keep us posted as you get more numbers curious to see how she feels once you up the boost.

 

[VETDRMS]

Had some time to look over some logs and looking at the same increments from 52-73.5mph in 2nd gear at 25psi with the Borg (16* timing) was 1.706s and the same increment at 22psi with the Black (10* timing) was 1.680s. Considering I backed the timing way off to keep the composite gasket alive I would have to say the Black is doing excellent.

The same increment for the S256 with the high timing and 28psi tapering to 25psi was 1.40.

The timing curve in the S256 logs is a lot more aggressive so it looks like the Black is doing good! I just need to put off the temptation to crank it until I can get an 88mm MLS gasket.

Also, looking over the logs the spool is actually better overall with the Black.

 

[crimsondragon]

Thank you for those pictures. You've gained major clearance with that Turbosmart. I'm going to start looking around for one.

 

[VETDRMS]

Got the 10psi outer spring for the wastegate and the -10AN adapter for the turbo this week.

Changing springs in the Turbosmart gate was a breeze, but the outer spring doesn't sit centered in the upper hat for some reason.

For the oil return I went with some ProClassic line and wrapped it with a DEI velcro heat shield. It turned out pretty good.

Made it out for some test pulls and it would do 22-23psi at 0 duty cycle where the gate should be 17psi. Looked fine so I started turning it up.

I made pulls in 2nd gear with the shift box to prevent downshifts and started around 2500-3000rpm. It is a little lazy hitting target boost at 5000rpm but pulls really smooth up to 8000rpm. I can feel it fall over a bit past about 7700rpm, which is probably due to the Evo III intake.

For this setup and a 2.4 I'm not sure if this is late or not, but again, the auto kind of makes spool look worse than it is in normal use. It doesn't really feel worlds different than the S256, a little lazier but stronger up top. At 25psi the wastegate is still a lot quieter than it was with the Borg so I don't think backpressure is an issue. IDC with 80% ethanol and 2150s is about 60%.

Log screen at full spool:

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The log is attached. As you can see I am still running very conservative timing and the composite gasket seems to be happy. One thing I have noticed is that the knock noise is much lower with this turbo than with the S256. I never got a pull this clean with that turbo. Not sure if that is backpressure related or just harmonics.

UPDATE AT 27PSI

Topped it off with 10 gallons of freshly blended E80 and hit the road with the boost turned up a bit. Did a quick 26psi pull in 2nd and it felt good so I stopped and cranked the duty cycle a couple more clicks and went to see how it would launch and pull up to about 100.

Verdict at about 27psi: fantastic! It got up on the converter OK; launching at about 3900rpm and 14psi it left a little soft and then hit HARD, spun a bit and pulled quick up to the 8100rpm shift point into 2nd, next shift came fast and before I knew it I was over 100 and smiling ear-to-ear. A quick glance at the coolant temp affirmed that the composite gasket was holding still.

I think the "more boost less timing" setup will keep it one piece longer and still move out great. Looking at the log 0-60 in about 2.9s is cooking. It weighs 3650lbs with me in it so she's making good power.

The old timing curve looked like this from 4000-8000rpm:

3 - 3 - 5 - 8 - 11 - 14 - 16 - 16 - 16

The new timing curve for the same range is now:

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 6 - 8 - 10 - 12 - 14

I was going to order up a custom 88mm MLS from Cometic but I will keep the OE composite a while longer.

Log of launch rpm/psi:

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I think I am finally getting into the range where this turbo shines. Power is smooth and strong up top like mentioned above. I want to rig up a way to measure back pressure to see how things are going on that end. I probably won't push it much more than this for a while but if I get the itch I'll go crank it a bit more (maybe after I order the MLS HG!) and post results back here. The track won't open for a long while so that will have to wait.

Thanks for looking.

 

[VETDRMS]

With a little more testing the spool is actually quite good and I can launch at a higher boost level and rpm than the tires will hold. Didn't have an issue brake-stalling to 4000rpm and 18psi and it blew the tires off all the way to about 45mph.

Up top this thing is really shining compared to the S256. It holds 27-28psi up to 8300rpm no sweat.

Comparing logs from an 11.5 run I made at 4000' elevation at 25psi on the S256 and a lot more timing my 0-112 increment was 9.35s.

The pull last night with a lot of spin up to 45mph for the same increment was 8.6s, a whole .7s faster! This was with a full to the brim tank and a 240lb passenger too.

She's moving now and the OE composite is holding up well. I don't think the track here opens until April so I will have to wait to get some numbers.

Travis

Update

Travis how much of this gain could be attributed to a bit colder weather?

I am sure it contributed. I can go find some logs with similar weather I am sure. I can also compare it to those at sea level. Looking at the weather history for both days it was about 70F, 29.8 baro, 50% humidity for the 11.5 pass and 50F, 29.7 baro, 55% humidity for the pull mentioned above. Obviously, I currently have the benefit of "better" air. Maybe that is worth a few tenths.

I am sure if I was running the same timing it would be quicker. It is also about 0.7-1 full point richer now.

Comparing IDC to get an idea of airflow between the two: if I look at 7700rpm in 3rd gear and an AFR of 11.0 for the 11.5 run (running E90) the IDC is 55.6%. Looking at the same rpm and AFR (now running E80) the IDC is 61.3%. Considering 10% less ethanol this is pretty good. I wasn't logging fuel pressure but I am assuming the pump is doing its job from prior logs and the fact that there is 10% more gasoline now.

Looking at a log earlier in the day with a lower launch rpm (3600rpm @ 13.6psi) and no wheel spin, for the 0-107.7mph increment, it was 8.612s for the 11.5 run (4000rpm @ 18psi launch) at an average boost of 25.2psi and 7.851s with the Black at an average boost of 26.2psi. A 0.76s difference. The S256 would taper to 25psi.

I will poke around some of my logs from sea level later. Update: looking at my 11.3 @ 122 run at sea-level in cool night air: 65F, 30.05 baro, 45% humidity, the same increment was 8.222s.

Another noteable fact is that the motor is much quieter with regard to knock. I always had a persistent noise register with the S256, to the point of disabling the knock sensor. In hindsight, this may have been back pressure related and could have contributed to the head gasket issues. As you can see below there was a lot of wheel spin at this launch rpm.

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Oil Line Update

I am going to re-do the oil drain again tomorrow as the 45* fitting at the pan is just too shallow and the ProClassic hose is pinched at the end of the fitting to go up to the turbo. It isn't pinched shut and seems to be working fine but I just don't like it.

I ordered some push-lok fittings and picked up some black Russel hose. I am trying a 60* fitting at the pan this time which should help quite a bit with that transition. They should be here tomorrow so I will take it back out again tomorrow if the weather holds. I want to get as many miles on it as possible due to the 6 month warranty on these turbos as it will not be driven much once winter sets in.

I finished up the oil line today and a 60* fitting at the pan is perfect.

The three iterations are below. Keep in mind that the stock 2g oil drain pipe fitting on the turbo end won't fit this turbo. The bolt holes are spaced further out. You might be able to open the holes up on the pipe to make it work though.

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Installed with the natural bend in the hose in the right direction helps. This always takes a little trial and error but the final hose length for this setup was 5.5".

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I picked up some DEI hose wrap with the velcro backing to protect the hose from the heat from the turbo. This probably isn't necessary as there is a pretty good air gap but it won't hurt.

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I had to clock the turbo a little bit to get the intercooler pipe in the right spot. It splits between the downpipe and dump tube about perfectly.

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If anyone is interested, the part numbers for the fittings from Fragola are:

60* - 206010-BL
Straight - 200110-BL
Flare Cap - 492910-BL This is really helpful when servicing the turbo and installing line if you have oil in the motor.

These are all on Amazon for pretty cheap and free 2-day shipping if you are a Prime member.

The hose is just Russell's black pushlock. A little fitting lube from Russell and a heat gun make it really easy to install on the fittings.

 

[VETDRMS]

Went for a nice 75 mile drive yesterday and ripped on it without much fuss. I was getting what I believe was surge pretty bad at high load low rpm or part throttle high load shifts. Turns out I have the white (11psi) spring in the blow-off valve. My idle vacuum is 6-8" so I should be running the black spring. I cut about 1.5 coils off the spring and flat sanded it. I put the flat coil in the locator in the hat and the cut end in the piston to limit deflection.

With the white spring the BOV cracked open at 17" and was fully open around 22" and closed at 15". With the cut spring it cracks open at 11.5", is fully open at 15" and closes at 10".

This seems to have mostly solved the problem. I can still induce the fluttering surge at very high load part throttle combined with a shift, but I really don't want the valve hanging open while driving (especially on the 1/8 mile dirt road to the shop).

Verdict? This combo is a blast. I had it spiking to 29psi yesterday and settling to ~28psi and man, what a ride. I don't need to string it out to 8000rpm to enjoy it (the current auto-shift points are 7k), but it will really march up top if you want it to.

The composite gasket is staying strong so I am really debating ordering the custom 88mm Cometic and tearing it all down this winter (unless I go MIVEC, of course). I think the MIVEC would really complete the combo so I am pretty sure that is the next step with this setup.

Other winter plans include building a solid backup transmission. The gearset is being sent off to be shot-peened then for WPC treatment. Keeping gears alive in a heavy car is a real pain, but this will never be a stripped out race car. High 10s pass is my goal now at elevation, which I think can be done but there is bound to be some DiSsapointMent along the way.

Travis

 

[DSM_GSX01]

Nice looking pictures. I want to know what intercooler to run with the FP black i am going to do a set up like this as well.

 

[92AWDHX40]

Nice winter is the best time to do some upgrades, i like that black but i have to do some other stuff before consider another turbo, but i want it all together so it can be tuned. Great write up on the install.

 

[VETDRMS]

Well, winter finally hit hard so the Talon is nestled away for a bit. Thanksgiving weekend weather was great so I romped on it as much as possible. The Evo with snow/ice tires is a blast though, so I am still getting my "fix".

As usual there is always that urge to push it a little more if things are working well. I ordered a black bov spring and a stiffer spring for the wastegate and popped that in and set off to up the boost a little. Still get BoV flutter with the black spring so going to go back to the cut down white. The wastegate duty is 100% until 25psi, which suprisingly doesn't induce a big spike. Spool is fast to 30psi and it oscillates about 1psi or so on shifts but holds 30psi to redline no sweat. Hits 30psi a shade under 5000rpm, but keep in mind the way an auto loads up is a lot different than a manual and I am not seeing lockup until 5500rpm. I think it is around 20psi in low 4000rpm range but I will have to go back and look.

Car feels like an animal, can't wait to get it back out to the track (going to be a long winter). Going to keep it where it is at for now and if everything looks great on track day I might turn the wick a little more.

The new TurboSmart wastegate was leaking out the dump tube at idle a bit. I tore it down and found the spot. I then lapped the valve and seat a bit, which seemed to fix the problem. I doubt this affected spool at all, but preturbine leaks are never good. It came back about 100 miles later so I have an RMA number from TS and it is getting sent back in for repairs. Always something.

Thanks again, FP! To be continued...

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Isn't 30psi at 4900 a little laggy for a tdo5h turbine? I mean.... fP told me the 3586 with the .85 AR housing will spool 30psi by 4700rpm on a 2.0 with 272/272

 

[turtleb00st]

Isn't 30psi at 4900 a little laggy for a tdo5h turbine? I mean.... fP told me the 3586 with the .85 AR housing will spool 30psi by 4700rpm on a 2.0 with 272/272

the biggest turbo fp make with the 05 turbine is the 71hta....

pretty sure the black uses a clipped 06 just like the red and green.

also remember a t3 will spool faster on a proper setup car than a mitsu flanged turbo stuffed with huge stuff.

 

[delta448]

Isn't 30psi at 4900 a little laggy for a tdo5h turbine?

The black uses a 67mm turbine wheel in an 8cm turbine housing. Just because the turbine housing is bolt-on doesn't mean it has to be a 7cm wrapped around a TD05H wheel.

pretty sure the black uses a clipped 06 just like the red and green.

Green and Green XL use a 65mm turbine wheel, Red uses same 67mm as Black.

 

[JusMX141]

The DSM Black uses a clipped TD06H4 turbine wheel. If it used a TD05H turbine, it would flow about 48 lb/min and blow instantly from the thrust loads / shaft speeds.

 

[VETDRMS]

Isn't 30psi at 4900 a little laggy for a tdo5h turbine? I mean.... fP told me the 3586 with the .85 AR housing will spool 30psi by 4700rpm on a 2.0 with 272/272

Not at all on a converter that locks up at 5500rpm. First, as it slips the rpm rises a lot faster than the turbo can fill the motor. Second, an auto loads up a lot different so spool numbers will be a lot different than with a manual. The fact that I can get up to 20psi at 4000rpm says a lot for "spool."

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Whats the 3586 turbine? Same 67mm?

 

[donniekak]

Whats the 3586 turbine? Same 67mm?

Garrett gt35 turbine.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

68/62mm?

 

[diambo4life]

the biggest turbo fp make with the 05 turbine is the 71hta....

pretty sure the black uses a clipped 06 just like the red and green.

also remember a t3 will spool faster on a proper setup car than a mitsu flanged turbo stuffed with huge stuff.

I second this. My Talon had a T4 GT35R with an open 0.68a/r tang. turbine housing and that thing used to see 38psi at 4,800-4900rpm. The same if not a tick quicker than the FP3065 it replaced.

 

[liquidz28]

i couldnt help but notice its actual profile, did you convert your fan to a metal bladed fan? otherwise its gonna melt that bad boy!

 

[VETDRMS]

^Not sure what fan you are referring to. The leak is fixed with the new seat; at least on first start there is zero leakage. Still a little too nasty here to take it out and try the 24psi triple spring setup.

 

[TalonSpeed]

How much horse power will this turbo support?

 

[bigdnno98]

68lb/min

 

[bigdnno98]

I love this turbo. I'm seeing 20psi by 4400 rpms, 27psi by 4800 rpms. I'm thinking it should be pushing more than the 51lb/min I'm pushing at 27psi though. I think the stock 6 bolt intake mani is becoming a big restricting at this boost psi. I'm saving my pennies for a SMIM though. Tax time can't come fast enough. I can't wait for the local track to open for sure!