ECMlink FIC 950cc injector issues

[Blue_1gb]

This is my first thread on here, and I couldn’t find anyone with my exact issues.

So my blue 94 Talon was running a 2g MAF on stock injectors with no issues but when I install my FIC 950cc injectors it runs extremely lean (AFRs 16-19). I have set my global and dead time to what FIC recommends.

Boost leak test comes back good, AFR signal is coming from Innovate LC1 wideband and sensor has been recalibrated. Any info would be greatly appreciated hopefully I got the right forum here.

 

[Justin DuBois]

this is my first thread on here, and I couldn’t find anyone with my exact issues, so my blue 94 talon was running a 2g maf on stock injectors with no issues but when I install my fic 950cc injectors it runs extremely lean (afrs 16-19) I have set my global and dead time to what fic recommends. Boost leak test comes back good, afr signal is coming from innovate lc1 wideband and sensor has been recalibrated. any info would be greatly appreciated hopfully I got the right forum here

What base fuel pressure are you running? (have you measured it)

The FIC recommended dead times are just a starting point. After you rough in the global fuel, you adjust the global dead time until your idle trims are +/-5% CombinedFT.

Dead time is very sensitive to base fuel pressure. If you are running stock pumps and regulators - the pressure should be "normal", but if you are running an upgraded pump - you need the supporting mods to bring the fuel pressure under control.

 

[Blue_1gb]

What base fuel pressure are you running? (have you measured it)

The FIC recommended dead times are just a starting point. After you rough in the global fuel, you adjust the global dead time until your idle trims are +/-5% CombinedFT.

Dead time is very sensitive to base fuel pressure. If you are running stock pumps and regulators - the pressure should be "normal", but if you are running an upgraded pump - you need the supporting mods to bring the fuel pressure under control.

Running 37.5 psi on a fuel lab regulator with a deatchworks 400 series

 

[steve]

There are more than one type of FIC950cc injectors, which are you running?
Please post a log so we can see what's happening and how you have DSMLink setup. You can use the Add Photos button to attach a .elg file.

 

[Blue_1gb]

There are more than one type of FIC950cc injectors, which are you running?
Please post a log so we can see what's happening and how you have DSMLink setup. You can use the Add Photos button to attach a .elg file.

They are the low z 950cc fic I’ll try and get a log posted tomorrow

 

[Justin DuBois]

Is that 37.5 measured at with or without vacuum on the regulator port? I wonder if it is as simple as resetting the base FP to 43.5 with the vac hose disconnected. If it results in a little more pressure at idle, it may improve the deadtime response.

 

[Blue_1gb]

Is that 37.5 measured at with or without vacuum on the regulator port? I wonder if it is as simple as resetting the base FP to 43.5 with the vac hose disconnected. If it results in a little more pressure at idle, it may improve the deadtime response.

That’s without vacume to the regulator, at idle with the vacume port connected it’s about 30psi

 

[Justin DuBois]

That’s without vacume to the regulator, at idle with the vacume port connected it’s about 30psi

That's a little low - try and set 43.5psi with vac hose disconnected so that you get 36-38 psi connected while idling hose connected.

 

[steve]

They are the low z 950cc fic.

Pictures, like I said there is more than one type of low z 950cc FIC injectors.

 

[steve]

That's a little low - try and set 43.5psi with vac hose disconnected so that you get 36-38 psi connected while idling hose connected.

1g turbo manual Base Fuel Pressure, not 2G my friend. There is nothing wrong with using 43.5psi but you have to adjust for the difference because the DSMLink handles it based on original values, 1G or 2G.

 

[jdxnc]

Are they used injectors you bought? If so there's a good chance one or more is not flowing correctly and need to be cleaned/flow tested.

 

[We're on Boost]

Boost leak test comes back good, AFR signal is coming from Innovate LC1 wideband and sensor has been recalibrated.

It will help if you are logging a stock type narrow band O2 sensor - which we can use to check the calibration of the wideband, up to a point.
Do you have the LC-1 going just to an AFR gauge, or are you also able to log it?
I'm remembering that with a Mitsubishi MAF, you might not have enough ecu inputs to log both a wideband and a narrow band O2.
But if we need to, we can check for agreement between an AFR gauge and the narrow band O2 logging with a video.

 

[Justin DuBois]

1g turbo manual Base Fuel Pressure, not 2G my friend. There is nothing wrong with using 43.5psi but you have to adjust for the difference because the DSMLink handles it based on original values, 1G or 2G.

Ah - I keep forgetting, 1G ECU likes the 1G base pressure.

 

[Blue_1gb]

Are they used injectors you bought? If so there's a good chance one or more is not flowing correctly and need to be cleaned/flow tested.

They were brand new from FIC I’m thinking the same thing though because when I put the stocks in it runs just fine.

It will help if you are logging a stock type narrow band O2 sensor - which we can use to check the calibration of the wideband, up to a point.
Do you have the LC-1 going just to an AFR gauge, or are you also able to log it?
I'm remembering that with a Mitsubishi MAF, you might not have enough ecu inputs to log both a wideband and a narrow band O2.
But if we need to, we can check for agreement between an AFR gauge and the narrow band O2 logging with a video.

Yes, I am logging off of my LC1 but I replaced my stock O2 input with it so I only log my wideband, I also recalibrated it a few times and it will idle 14.4-14.9 on stock injectors. I'm currently battling a blown Balance Shaft bearing on my teal car so it might be a little while before I can continue on the fast one.

 

[Blue_1gb]

This is my first thread on here, and I couldn’t find anyone with my exact issues.

So my blue 94 Talon was running a 2g MAF on stock injectors with no issues but when I install my FIC 950cc injectors it runs extremely lean (AFRs 16-19). I have set my global and dead time to what FIC recommends.

Boost leak test comes back good, AFR signal is coming from Innovate LC1 wideband and sensor has been recalibrated. Any info would be greatly appreciated hopefully I got the right forum here.

im not sure if i posted it right, but i finally got the time to get a log (ive been busy rebuilding my teal talon) but this log is a cold start, i cant even get it to run long enough to get the car up to temp, any info is greatly appreciated!

 

[We're on Boost]

im not sure if i posted it right, but i finally got the time to get a log (ive been busy rebuilding my teal talon) but this log is a cold start, i cant even get it to run long enough to get the car up to temp, any info is greatly appreciated!

Well, one thing is that your IdleSw shows 0 though the whole log. That should be a 1 when your foot is off the gas pedsl. You should turn on "Enable idle switch operation" on the RPM/TPS tab.
If IdleSw still shows 0 after that, then your physical idle switch is either not working or is not adjusted right. The adjustment of it could be the physical position of it, or it could be that you need to change the "TPS Offset" under "Enable TPS adjustments". You would adjust the TPS Offset so that you get "ThrotPos" of 0% whenever your foot is off the gas pedal.
If you just can't get your physical Idle Switch to work right, or if it has been removed, you could try turning on "Simulate idle switch from TPS" and adjust that to work.

In your "Captured Values" you should turn on "Cranking Fuel Adjust" so we can see it in the logs.

Do you still have a FIAV?

Towards the end of the log where your rpm is drifting downward, I only see about 80 ISC Position. Mine would be at 120 there still (with foot off the gas pedal) since the coolant is still pretty cold.

Your LC1WB in the last few seconds was showing AFR of around 13 to 14 which should have been ok unless your LC1 has Min and Max numbers that are seriously off in the Graph Item Preferences for it. I don't think they are that far off though.

It kind of looks like you kept it running by keeping your foot on the gas a little bit, until about 90.5 sec in the log. Then you took your foot off the gas and it died 7 seconds later. Is that how it went?

 

[steve]

The IPS isn't enabled and so the ECU isn't trying to manage the idle speed. That isn't helping.
If the pictures in this car's profile are accurate I don't see a TB ground that's needed for a 1G IPS. The ECU sees the IPS pin switch at the beginning and end but not consistantly during the log.

I would expect much more deadtime than the changes I see in the InjBatteryAdj but I've never run those injectors and don't know what FIC is recommending.

Check that you have the latest version of the firmware in your ECU.

 

[Blue_1gb]

Well, one thing is that your IdleSw shows 0 though the whole log. That should be a 1 when your foot is off the gas pedsl. You should turn on "Enable idle switch operation" on the RPM/TPS tab.
If IdleSw still shows 0 after that, then your physical idle switch is either not working or is not adjusted right. The adjustment of it could be the physical position of it, or it could be that you need to change the "TPS Offset" under "Enable TPS adjustments". You would adjust the TPS Offset so that you get "ThrotPos" of 0% whenever your foot is off the gas pedal.
If you just can't get your physical Idle Switch to work right, or if it has been removed, you could try turning on "Simulate idle switch from TPS" and adjust that to work.

In your "Captured Values" you should turn on "Cranking Fuel Adjust" so we can see it in the logs.

Do you still have a FIAV?

Towards the end of the log where your rpm is drifting downward, I only see about 80 ISC Position. Mine would be at 120 there still (with foot off the gas pedal) since the coolant is still pretty cold.

Your LC1WB in the last few seconds was showing AFR of around 13 to 14 which should have been ok unless your LC1 has Min and Max numbers that are seriously off in the Graph Item Preferences for it. I don't think they are that far off though.

It kind of looks like you kept it running by keeping your foot on the gas a little bit, until about 90.5 sec in the log. Then you took your foot off the gas and it died 7 seconds later. Is that how it went?

Yes that’s exactly how I kept it running, I had to hold the gas the whole time, towards the end I did let off and that was the car idling on its own. I do not have an fiav since I needed it for my other car and figured this one shouldn’t need it. I’m going to check into my TPs and stop switch setting and let you know what I find

The IPS isn't enabled and so the ECU isn't trying to manage the idle speed. That isn't helping.
If the pictures in this car's profile are accurate I don't see a TB ground that's needed for a 1G IPS. The ECU sees the IPS pin switch at the beginning and end but not consistantly during the log.

I would expect much more deadtime than the changes I see in the InjBatteryAdj but I've never run those injectors and don't know what FIC is recommending.

Check that you have the latest version of the firmware in your ECU.

I’m not familiar with ips, I do have the intake manifold grounded in the factory spot just not visible, I also had to keep the car running by holding my foot on the gas if that changes anything?

 

[steve]

You may know all this so please excuse me if you do.

1G Throttle bodies have a Idle Position Switch on the back side over the butterfly pulley. The switch is used to ground the signal from the ECU when the throttle is closed. and that ground is provided by a strap from the top of the TB to one of the bolts into the intake manifold. They do that because the TB itself is isolated by gaskets on either side and you can't count on it grounding from just sitting on the bolts.

Without the IPS grounding the signal the ECU doesn't know to manage the idle or use the ISC to act as a dashpot when the throttle is closed. It also doesn't know to perform decel fuel cut which is why with this disconnected 1G cars don't idle surge when the idle speed is too high. The IPS also serves as the butterfly stop adjustment to keep it from sticking in the bore or from allowing too much air to pass through at idle.

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If you're having to hold the throttle open to get it to idle, I'd make sure you have a working ISC, that the BISS is correctly adjusted and that you haven't disabled the FIAV. Even without a working FIAV at 60F it should idle on just the ISC, and BISS. You should see the ISC start out about 120 steps and close down to about 30 as it warms up.

Once the ECT crosses 86F you should see the ECU enter Closed Loop and watch the fueling change to get the O2 to start switching. If it doesn't the ECU will give up on Closed Loop.

Getting it to idle in Closed Loop is one of the ways to dial in the deadtime assuming your global is close to the actual injectors. Deadtime has the largest impact at idle (short injector pulse widths) where it makes up most of the IPW.

I assume you are changing the global and deadtimes between the stock and 950cc injectors.

 

[We're on Boost]

Yes that’s exactly how I kept it running, I had to hold the gas the whole time, towards the end I did let off and that was the car idling on its own. I do not have an fiav since I needed it for my other car and figured this one shouldn’t need it.

One thing you could do is you could start it again with the logger going and keep it running with your foot until it gets to closed loop temperature, and then for another 2 or 3 minutes after that. (Before you start the engine, bring in CrankingFuelAdj to your display with Edit, Captured Values)

Mine usually goes into closed loop as soon as the coolant temp reads 87 deg F in ECMlink.
So get it to that point and then keep it going. After 2 more minutes you'll probably be up to 125 - 130 deg F. Then take your foot off the gas and see if will keep running all by itself.

A log like that would give us more to look at. We'll see if it even goes into closed loop. When it's in closed loop we can watch the trims (they are only on in closed loop) and we will see what happens when you take your foot off the gas pedal. It'll be better if you have the Idle Position Switch functioning, but even if you don't have that fixed yet we could probably learn something from a log like that.

Since you got your injectors new from FIC you should have got a sheet that looks something like this (below). These were Low-Z 850cc injectors that I bought new in 2009 from FIC.
We could figure out your theoretical "deadtimes" for InjBatteryAdj from it if you post it up. A scan preferably if it's on paper, or a photo.

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[Blue_1gb]

One thing you could do is you could start it again with the logger going and keep it running with your foot until it gets to closed loop temperature, and then for another 2 or 3 minutes after that. (Before you start the engine, bring in CrankingFuelAdj to your display with Edit, Captured Values)

Mine usually goes into closed loop as soon as the coolant temp reads 87 deg F in ECMlink.
So get it to that point and then keep it going. After 2 more minutes you'll probably be up to 125 - 130 deg F. Then take your foot off the gas and see if will keep running all by itself.

A log like that would give us more to look at. We'll see if it even goes into closed loop. When it's in closed loop we can watch the trims (they are only on in closed loop) and we will see what happens when you take your foot off the gas pedal. It'll be better if you have the Idle Position Switch functioning, but even if you don't have that fixed yet we could probably learn something from a log like that.

Since you got your injectors new from FIC you should have got a sheet that looks something like this (below). These were Low-Z 850cc injectors that I bought new in 2009 from FIC.
We could figure out your theoretical "deadtimes" for InjBatteryAdj from it if you post it up. A scan preferably if it's on paper, or a photo.

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Okay sorry for late reply, I work full time so it’s hard to work on this during the week, I did get a sheet like that one but not as in depth as the one you showed. I will do a log later today and try and get it up to operating temp and also add crankfueladj, thank you for the information you have been super helpful!!

 

[Blue_1gb]

One thing you could do is you could start it again with the logger going and keep it running with your foot until it gets to closed loop temperature, and then for another 2 or 3 minutes after that. (Before you start the engine, bring in CrankingFuelAdj to your display with Edit, Captured Values)

Mine usually goes into closed loop as soon as the coolant temp reads 87 deg F in ECMlink.
So get it to that point and then keep it going. After 2 more minutes you'll probably be up to 125 - 130 deg F. Then take your foot off the gas and see if will keep running all by itself.

A log like that would give us more to look at. We'll see if it even goes into closed loop. When it's in closed loop we can watch the trims (they are only on in closed loop) and we will see what happens when you take your foot off the gas pedal. It'll be better if you have the Idle Position Switch functioning, but even if you don't have that fixed yet we could probably learn something from a log like that.

Since you got your injectors new from FIC you should have got a sheet that looks something like this (below). These were Low-Z 850cc injectors that I bought new in 2009 from FIC.
We could figure out your theoretical "deadtimes" for InjBatteryAdj from it if you post it up. A scan preferably if it's on paper, or a photo.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Here is the second log. I added cranking fuel adjust, and I had to hold my foot on the gas for 3/4ths of the log to keep it running. The last quarter of the log I took my foot off the gas and let it idle on its own. I noticed the AFR was super lean at like 16.8-17.5 and with the car at 140 degrees the idle was still pretty low at like 550-600 RPMs. Any info is greatly appreciated!!

 

[We're on Boost]

Ok good, your fuel trims are consistently plus 16.8% after it goes into closed loop.
That means that based on the narrow band simulation, the ecu is trying to add 16.8% fuel most of the time.
Well, square root of 43/37 = square root of 1.16 = 1.08
So, if you increased your fuel pressure to 43 psi (from 37) you'd be adding about 8% to your fuel.
That's not even enough but it is a good chunk in the right direction.
So I think you should try that. Just go ahead and raise your base fuel pressure to 43 psi.

Then I see 3 other things you should do, and then you could try another warm up log to see how it's going.
The 3 things:
1.) Turn on the idle switch in ECMlink - that would be just putting a check in the box for Enable idle switch operation, like here:

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2.) Also turn on the check box below that one, which says "Simulate idle switch from TPS". That is because I am not seeing a "1" anywhere in your log for "IdleSw". It should be a 1 when your foot is off the gas. But yours is always stuck on 0. You can display in your log the raw value for ThrotPos (RawThrotPos). If that raw value is 34 or less when your foot is off the gas, then the simulated idle switch should work fine. What I see in your log is that RawThrotPos gets down to 34 just barely, when your ThrotPos is 1% and then after a few seconds of shaking down, the ThrotPos goes to 0% and raw goes to 33. So simulated idle switch should work ok without needing to tweak "TPS Offset" (but you could tweak that if you had to).

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This note about target idle says when at normal operating temp, but I don't know, seems to me this starts working pretty soon after your 87 degrees where it goes into closed loop. And your car is doing that, it is going into closed loop at 87 deg F like it should.


3.) Open up your Basic Idle set screw (BISS) by some, maybe a half turn.

So do those 3 things plus the fuel pressure increase and try another warm up run.

 

[steve]

2.) Also turn on the check box below that one, which says "Simulate idle switch from TPS". That is because I am not seeing a "1" anywhere in your log for "IdleSw". It should be a 1 when your foot is off the gas. But yours is always stuck on 0. You can display in your log the raw value for ThrotPos (RawThrotPos). If that raw value is 34 or less when your foot is off the gas, then the simulated idle switch should work fine. What I see in your log is that RawThrotPos gets down to 34 just barely, when your ThrotPos is 1% and then after a few seconds of shaking down, the ThrotPos goes to 0% and raw goes to 33. So simulated idle switch should work ok without needing to tweak "TPS Offset" (but you could tweak that if you had to).

It's IdleSwPin as I understand it that is the raw indication of the IPS input. If it's switching when it should you don't need to enable simulation.

 

[Blue_1gb]

Ok good, your fuel trims are consistently plus 16.8% after it goes into closed loop.
That means that based on the narrow band simulation, the ecu is trying to add 16.8% fuel most of the time.
Well, square root of 43/37 = square root of 1.16 = 1.08
So, if you increased your fuel pressure to 43 psi (from 37) you'd be adding about 8% to your fuel.
That's not even enough but it is a good chunk in the right direction.
So I think you should try that. Just go ahead and raise your base fuel pressure to 43 psi.

Then I see 3 other things you should do, and then you could try another warm up log to see how it's going.
The 3 things:
1.) Turn on the idle switch in ECMlink - that would be just putting a check in the box for Enable idle switch operation, like here:

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2.) Also turn on the check box below that one, which says "Simulate idle switch from TPS". That is because I am not seeing a "1" anywhere in your log for "IdleSw". It should be a 1 when your foot is off the gas. But yours is always stuck on 0. You can display in your log the raw value for ThrotPos (RawThrotPos). If that raw value is 34 or less when your foot is off the gas, then the simulated idle switch should work fine. What I see in your log is that RawThrotPos gets down to 34 just barely, when your ThrotPos is 1% and then after a few seconds of shaking down, the ThrotPos goes to 0% and raw goes to 33. So simulated idle switch should work ok without needing to tweak "TPS Offset" (but you could tweak that if you had to).

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This note about target idle says when at normal operating temp, but I don't know, seems to me this starts working pretty soon after your 87 degrees where it goes into closed loop. And your car is doing that, it is going into closed loop at 87 deg F like it should.


3.) Open up your Basic Idle set screw (BISS) by some, maybe a half turn.

So do those 3 things plus the fuel pressure increase and try another warm up run.

alright so i got another log here for you, non of those things seemed to help too much, the fuel pressure i think did help it idle on its own a bit better but not by much here is the log