ECMlink FIC 950cc injector issues

[We're on Boost]

It's IdleSwPin as I understand it that is the raw indication of the IPS input. If it's switching when it should you don't need to enable simulation.

Ahh ok, IdleSwPin. Looks like IdleSwPin worked a few times and other times not. So he could try to get that working better. But the simulated idle switch like he's got turned on in log 3 seems to be working ok. I think it looks like his actual throttle position is hanging up a little at ThrotPos 1% and then it vibrates down to 0% after some time.

alright so i got another log here for you, non of those things seemed to help too much, the fuel pressure i think did help it idle on its own a bit better but not by much here is the log

Yeah.
I see the engine quit at 171 sec, then a restart at 181 sec. Another restart at 234 sec. It takes about 30 seconds for the wideband to start working again after the restarts, so for most of the time after 171 sec there is no wideband, no simulated narrow band, and therefore no closed loop.

But before 171 sec there is about 50 seconds of closed loop, and for most of that the Combined and Short Term Fuel Trims are still mostly way high, 16.8.

One thing to do, look at all 4 spark plugs. See if one of them looks a lot different than the other 3. You might have one cylinder running with a cloggy injector. The running till now has been so light though, the plugs might not show much of anything.

What are you using for a fuel filter, and have you checked or changed it lately?

When I right click on your log window and pick "MAFComp Adjust (Combined FT)" from the right click window, and then it shows me your MAF Comp tab with suggested changes, it shows suggested changes of about plus 14%. But it only has suggestions for up to 100 MAF hz. Because that's about all we have so far with this very light running.

I think the next thing to try in ECMlink is to change your Global Fuel number.
If you run the calculator for 850cc injectors, still telling it 37psi pressure, you'd be adding about another 11% to your fuel from where you are now.
In other words, like this:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

So you'd change your Global Fuel from -53 to -47 about.
It's just a shot at it, but easy to do and easy to revert if you find something more fundamentally wrong.

 

[Stapl3]

This is my first thread on here, and I couldn’t find anyone with my exact issues.

So my blue 94 Talon was running a 2g MAF on stock injectors with no issues but when I install my FIC 950cc injectors it runs extremely lean (AFRs 16-19). I have set my global and dead time to what FIC recommends.

Boost leak test comes back good, AFR signal is coming from Innovate LC1 wideband and sensor has been recalibrated. Any info would be greatly appreciated hopefully I got the right forum here.

You went from a forgiving setup to a non-forgiving one in one fell swoop. Do the injectors flow exactly 950 for you? No. Is your gauge exactly correct? Well, it's just a scale (super cheap at that), so no. I ran 5 gauges once and they all gave me a slightly different reading. They are arbitrary and this directly affects them flowing exactly 950. Deadtime... FIC does not use a DSM ECU injector driver to test deadtime on their injectors. The numbers are not to be used, they are wrong for us. You have 3 things working against you here and it's not adding up well.

So what do we look at? The relationship between the ECU and wideband. That's the accuracy, and directly addresses the issue of making the ECU happy with what you physically installed. You need to post a log of a WOT pull to minimum 6k rpm. That will tell the entire story. Anything else is kinda a waste of time, as much as I do enjoy the posts in this thread.

 

[We're on Boost]

You should have a properly working knock sensor before doing any WOT pulls.
Right now your logs are showing a DTC on the knock sensor, so we kind of have to proceed as if it isn't working.
Without a knock sensor, you won't get knock retard when you need it. And you'll probably need it if the car is really running lean like we've been thinking.

So let's try to get to a reasonable Global Fuel number with closed loop running, and then some light pulls beyond closed loop.
Also, you might want to have a car that will at least keep running when you take your foot off the gas, before doing much driving around in it.

The knock sensor problem could be the sensor, or the ECU, or it could be just corrosion in the electrical connector for it. Probably first you should pick "Clear DTCs" and then see if it comes back.

Do you have any logs from when the stock injectors were in it?

 

[Blue_1gb]

You went from a forgiving setup to a non-forgiving one in one fell swoop. Do the injectors flow exactly 950 for you? No. Is your gauge exactly correct? Well, it's just a scale (super cheap at that), so no. I ran 5 gauges once and they all gave me a slightly different reading. They are arbitrary and this directly affects them flowing exactly 950. Deadtime... FIC does not use a DSM ECU injector driver to test deadtime on their injectors. The numbers are not to be used, they are wrong for us. You have 3 things working against you here and it's not adding up well.

So what do we look at? The relationship between the ECU and wideband. That's the accuracy, and directly addresses the issue of making the ECU happy with what you physically installed. You need to post a log of a WOT pull to minimum 6k rpm. That will tell the entire story. Anything else is kinda a waste of time, as much as I do enjoy the posts in this thread.

I couldn’t even get the car to rev that high if I wanted, beleive me if I could do a full wot log I would most definitely have one posted, the car runs horribly

 

[Blue_1gb]

You should have a properly working knock sensor before doing any WOT pulls.
Right now your logs are showing a DTC on the knock sensor, so we kind of have to proceed as if it isn't working.
Without a knock sensor, you won't get knock retard when you need it. And you'll probably need it if the car is really running lean like we've been thinking.

So let's try to get to a reasonable Global Fuel number with closed loop running, and then some light pulls beyond closed loop.
Also, you might want to have a car that will at least keep running when you take your foot off the gas, before doing much driving around in it.

The knock sensor problem could be the sensor, or the ECU, or it could be just corrosion in the electrical connector for it. Probably first you should pick "Clear DTCs" and then see if it comes back.

Do you have any logs from when the stock injectors were in it?

I do not have any from stock injectors, also this knock sensor is a cheapy that obviously didn’t end up working for me, so I’m currently trying to get my hands on an oem one, I very much agree I think the car is far from being able to move (tuning wise)

 

[Blue_1gb]

Ahh ok, IdleSwPin. Looks like IdleSwPin worked a few times and other times not. So he could try to get that working better. But the simulated idle switch like he's got turned on in log 3 seems to be working ok. I think it looks like his actual throttle position is hanging up a little at ThrotPos 1% and then it vibrates down to 0% after some time.


Yeah.
I see the engine quit at 171 sec, then a restart at 181 sec. Another restart at 234 sec. It takes about 30 seconds for the wideband to start working again after the restarts, so for most of the time after 171 sec there is no wideband, no simulated narrow band, and therefore no closed loop.

But before 171 sec there is about 50 seconds of closed loop, and for most of that the Combined and Short Term Fuel Trims are still mostly way high, 16.8.

One thing to do, look at all 4 spark plugs. See if one of them looks a lot different than the other 3. You might have one cylinder running with a cloggy injector. The running till now has been so light though, the plugs might not show much of anything.

What are you using for a fuel filter, and have you checked or changed it lately?

When I right click on your log window and pick "MAFComp Adjust (Combined FT)" from the right click window, and then it shows me your MAF Comp tab with suggested changes, it shows suggested changes of about plus 14%. But it only has suggestions for up to 100 MAF hz. Because that's about all we have so far with this very light running.

I think the next thing to try in ECMlink is to change your Global Fuel number.
If you run the calculator for 850cc injectors, still telling it 37psi pressure, you'd be adding about another 11% to your fuel from where you are now.
In other words, like this:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

So you'd change your Global Fuel from -53 to -47 about.
It's just a shot at it, but easy to do and easy to revert if you find something more fundamentally wrong.

I’ll try that out when I can get the car pulled in next weekend, anything else I should look out for or test in the mean time?

 

[We're on Boost]

Well there's always something I suppose but if you make that change to the global fuel and clear the DTC, I think we'll get some useful info when you log the next run.
Just from what I see on "paper" you have a lot of good parts on that car. It should come out very well at some point.

 

[We're on Boost]

When you first put the 2g MAF on the car, did you then load 2g fuel and timing configurations to your ECMlink?
The reason I ask is because Jeff Oberholtzer told me that "The 2G MAS puts out a Hz signal that is about 30% lower than the 1G for the same airflow". So the basic mapping of MAF Hz to Load Factor should be a lot different. Or something like that.

The way it's going so far, I could imagine that we'd end up adding about 30% to the fuel from where it was at the start of the thread. So it makes me wonder if that's what's going on, even though, I know you said it ran ok with the smaller injectors.

I think it would be good to understand the basics of using a 2g MAF with a 1g ecu and to know how yours is set up, and maybe you need to start from a freshly loaded 2g configuration or something like that. I don't know, I've never put a 2g MAF on a 1g. But several people in here would know!

I still think you should go ahead with the next step of running a log with the changed global fuel and we see how that goes. But we should also do this basic homework of understanding the 2g MAF on a 1g ecu.

 

[steve]

The reason I ask is because Jeff Oberholtzer told me that "The 2G MAS puts out a Hz signal that is about 30% lower than the 1G for the same airflow". So the basic mapping of MAF Hz to Load Factor should be a lot different. Or something like that.

When we are modifying the factory code (by hand) we have to change several values and replace the MAF comp map but that all seems to be done for you in DSMLink when you select the Base MAF type on the MAF Clamp tab and use something other than the stock setting. (log 3 has 2G DSM MAF selected) If for some reason you have modified the MAF you'll need to dial it in with the Active MAF Compensation and Global.

That said the AirflowPerRev #'s seem pretty high and the WBFactor is pretty much pinned at max for a good portion of the log. I really would like to see all the direct maps (and everything else) reset to stock and just plug in the injector comp and 2G MAF to see what happens.

 

[We're on Boost]

When we are modifying the factory code (by hand) we have to change several values and replace the MAF comp map but that all seems to be done for you in DSMLink when you select the Base MAF type on the MAF Clamp tab and use something other than the stock setting. (log 3 has 2G DSM MAF selected) If for some reason you have modified the MAF you'll need to dial it in with the Active MAF Compensation and Global.

Ok, to see if I understand this right, let's say the following:
Let's say we are starting with a completely stock, original 1g car, maybe it just rolled out of the factory
Then we put ECMlink on it.
Then we replace the 1g MAF with a 2g MAF.
Then we go to the MAF Comp page and set the Base MAF Type to "2G DSM".
Now the car should run just fine and the fueling will be very close to correct. Maybe a couple percent off but nowhere near 30% off.
Is that how it's supposed to work?

 

[Justin DuBois]

Ok, to see if I understand this right, let's say the following:
Let's say we are starting with a completely stock, original 1g car, maybe it just rolled out of the factory
Then we put ECMlink on it.
Then we replace the 1g MAF with a 2g MAF.
Then we go to the MAF Comp page and set the Base MAF Type to "2G DSM".
Now the car should run just fine and the fueling will be very close to correct. Maybe a couple percent off but nowhere near 30% off.
Is that how it's supposed to work?

yup

 

[steve]

Ok, to see if I understand this right, let's say the following:
Let's say we are starting with a completely stock, original 1g car, maybe it just rolled out of the factory
Then we put ECMlink on it.
Then we replace the 1g MAF with a 2g MAF.
Then we go to the MAF Comp page and set the Base MAF Type to "2G DSM".
Now the car should run just fine and the fueling will be very close to correct. Maybe a couple percent off but nowhere near 30% off.
Is that how it's supposed to work?

With DSM/ECMLink that exactly how it's intended to work.

 

[Blue_1gb]

Well there's always something I suppose but if you make that change to the global fuel and clear the DTC, I think we'll get some useful info when you log the next run.
Just from what I see on "paper" you have a lot of good parts on that car. It should come out very well at some point.

I’ll definitely try it out, and I agree the car should come out very nice, but knowledge and execution seems to be my issue right now

 

[We're on Boost]

I’ll definitely try it out, and I agree the car should come out very nice, but knowledge and execution seems to be my issue right now

Yes. If you try that and it just doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere, the next and cleanest step I think would be to do what Steve suggested in the 2nd paragraph of post #34, which is to basically start the ECMlink configuration over from scratch with a clean install of Stock 1g DSM settings (like from Here), and then set the Base MAF Type to "2G DSM" and plug in the theoretical Global Fuel number for your injectors.
We can go from there with tweaks to the Global Fuel and using Active MAF Compensation (read that note that comes up when you right click on your log window and you pick MAFComp Adjust (combined FT) from the right click menu. Then pick Continue to see the suggested tweaks shown in white dots).

Maybe starting from a clean install of Stock 1g DSM settings is what you did already, before even starting this thread? But sometimes what happens is a person will buy a used ECMlink from someone who had a configuration in it and then just try to use it starting from that unknown config, and that would usually be not good.

Another thing we should know is if your 2g MAF might have been hacked for more airflow by a previous owner. That would throw everything off.

 

[steve]

If you save the old logs you can always reload those and be back to where you were.

As noted on that page linked above you still need to go to each bold direct map and reset it to stock which confuses me since if you can reload everything from a saved log why can't it all be reset back to stock the same way. I'm missing something important here.

 

[We're on Boost]

As noted on that page linked above you still need to go to each bold direct map and reset it to stock which confuses me since if you can reload everything from a saved log why can't it all be reset back to stock the same way. I'm missing something important here.

That wiki page confuses me too. I don't know the answer.
The only kind of reload I've ever had to do on mine was, when I first bought V3 new from ECMtuning, I had to update the firmware to get the flex-fuel code in it. Then I handed the whole thing off to English Racing and let them do everything from there. So a lot of this stuff I don't know how to do.

 

[Blue_1gb]

When we are modifying the factory code (by hand) we have to change several values and replace the MAF comp map but that all seems to be done for you in DSMLink when you select the Base MAF type on the MAF Clamp tab and use something other than the stock setting. (log 3 has 2G DSM MAF selected) If for some reason you have modified the MAF you'll need to dial it in with the Active MAF Compensation and Global.

That said the AirflowPerRev #'s seem pretty high and the WBFactor is pretty much pinned at max for a good portion of the log. I really would like to see all the direct maps (and everything else) reset to stock and just plug in the injector comp and 2G MAF to see what happens.

Isn’t that how I have it set up now? I thought I only made changes that were absolutely necessary for my setup (injector data, 2g maf, lc2 wideband) I guess I’

Yes. If you try that and it just doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere, the next and cleanest step I think would be to do what Steve suggested in the 2nd paragraph of post #34, which is to basically start the ECMlink configuration over from scratch with a clean install of Stock 1g DSM settings (like from Here), and then set the Base MAF Type to "2G DSM" and plug in the theoretical Global Fuel number for your injectors.
We can go from there with tweaks to the Global Fuel and using Active MAF Compensation (read that note that comes up when you right click on your log window and you pick MAFComp Adjust (combined FT) from the right click menu. Then pick Continue to see the suggested tweaks shown in white dots).

Maybe starting from a clean install of Stock 1g DSM settings is what you did already, before even starting this thread? But sometimes what happens is a person will buy a used ECMlink from someone who had a configuration in it and then just try to use it starting from that unknown config, and that would usually be not good.

Another thing we should know is if your 2g MAF might have been hacked for more airflow by a previous owner. That would throw everything off.

that would make perfect sense, I hadn’t reset the ecu to stock configuration at all, I assumed it was reset by the previous owner just like you said. I have had the car running great on this same ecu but with all stock engine components(stockinjectors, 2g maf, 3inch exhaust) and it seemed to boost and idle really well

 

[We're on Boost]

that would make perfect sense, I hadn’t reset the ecu to stock configuration at all, I assumed it was reset by the previous owner just like you said. I have had the car running great on this same ecu but with all stock engine components(stockinjectors, 2g maf, 3inch exhaust) and it seemed to boost and idle really well

Well, I'm reading a little about "reset". And trying to grok it better by looking at each tab that's in your last log, under "View, ECU direct access (from log)". Then right click on whatever table is in that tab, and pick "Toggle stock values" from the right click menu.
It will then show you what the stock values are, or indicate that they are already stock. To revert it you pick "Toggle stock values" again.
The one that jumps right out at me as one with a big change is the "LoadScale" tab.
Yours is 114.8% for some reason. Stock is 100%. I've looked at logs that I've saved from other people in here, and just about everybody has 100% in that field. I searched the wiki for Load Scale and only found one thing, changelog 3.19.139 (12/22/2009), read that, and I don't know what the heck they are saying. Have no idea whether it affects anything we care about here.

Other Direct Access tabs where you have non-stock settings:
OpenLoopMaxOct (target air/fuel ratio): The stock values are much richer at high loads but about the same at low loads.
Open loop throttle threshold: Your thresholds are higher than stock. That is sort of a load threshold that determines where it switches from closed to open loop as you increase the load (as you increase the throttle basically).
TimingMaxOct: Is changed quite a bit from stock but is mostly "safer" than stock (less advance).
TimingMinOct: Is changed quite a bit from stock and some of it is more advanced than stock (less safe).
A couple other tabs have changes that look very small to me.

That's all "Direct Access" stuff, and that's the only place where you can get the "Toggle Stock Values" with a right click.
Your items that are in "ECU config" - I don't know why you'd want to reset those. I think you'd just have to put them back again to how you have them now.

So from my limited understanding of it, that's a rundown on what you could change by doing a right click "Toggle stock values" followed by another right click and then "Copy to ECU" if you want to actually use it.

The buttons at the bottom of each page that say "Reset" or "Reset all" -- if you hover over them with the mouse, the help balloon that comes up says "Resets values to those of the most recent load/save operation". And that is not what we are looking for at all.