Failed Holset experiment (HX40 rant)

[viperlp01]

Haha I would test it for ya but when I sold you my exhaust housing I cut my exhaust off it. So I would have to weld it back on or weld a vband on my exhaust ect ect. There must be something that is causing an issue. The welded internal wastegate is still welded and holding right? If you want to send it to me, my brothers 2g is getting my Hx40 and we can put yours on first to see what it does and put mine on there after. This is going to be a dsm bolt on housing but regardless the test OS to see if it makes boost

 

[asrdave]

I wonder if it's the shop messing with you? Are you the only one that works on the car?

 

[JusMX141]

If I ship this HX40 back to you (Justin) or perhaps John (viperlp01) is there any way one of you can test it again for me to see if you can get it to make boost pressure or at least double-check for something else wrong that would prevent it from making boost?

I couldn't do that without mounting it to a car, and every HX40 user I know has their car off the road for the winter.

 

[red1993gsallmt]

But what if somthing was worn and the wheel wasnt tight enough against the shaft, and it spun at hight rpms instead of making boost. Like its easier for the wheel to spin on the shaft instead of making boost, is that possible. Dont everyone jump on me, I dont know if the compressor wheel just releys on the taper of the shaft to stay put or what. If it releys on the taper and the hole in the compressor wheel is fudged ( tho I know Justin would see that if he was lookin) it may spin as the resistance against it got greater

 

[jkimes]

Haha I would test it for ya but when I sold you my exhaust housing I cut my exhaust off it. So I would have to weld it back on or weld a vband on my exhaust ect ect. There must be something that is causing an issue. The welded internal wastegate is still welded and holding right? If you want to send it to me, my brothers 2g is getting my Hx40 and we can put yours on first to see what it does and put mine on there after. This is going to be a dsm bolt on housing but regardless the test OS to see if it makes boost

Sounds good to me. P.M. me your shipping info and I'll send it to you.

 

[jkimes]

I already mentioned a couple of times that I'm still a fan of Holset turbos and I've been impressed by the performance numbers that people have made with them on our platform. I'm just trying to explain that you are rolling the dice by buying a used turbo and you could wind up incredibly angry and frustrated (not to mention short at least a few hundred dollars and possibly a lot more) if it doesn't work right.

I think the biggest difference between your example and mine is your project goal. If I had recently purchased a nearly stock DSM on the cheap and wanted to turn it into a nice 350-500whp weekend warrior for autocross and drag racing on a shoestring budget (which is honestly the best use for a DSM) a used Hx35 would probably still be my first choice.

However, the original goal I set for myself when I started this build was 700+whp (which I wouldn't recommend trying unless you just love to waste money) and I wanted to try and make my car as reliable as possible. In order to make that kind of power reliably you're typically going to have to drop a lot of money on additional supporting parts to get there (larger exhaust manifold, an application specific turbine housing, a larger air intake , as well as an IAT and 4 or 5 bar MAP sensor to eliminate the stock MAS, a larger intake manifold and throttle body, a COP or CDI ignition, bigger cams, dual fuel pumps, huge injectors, dual valve springs & retainers, headwork, a fully built shortblock.. and on and on).
If you've already made a sizeable investment in a project, why not go ahead and spend a couple hundred extra bucks for a nice new turbo with a warranty?

When you buy a used turbo, it's not like you're buying a used boat anchor or something with unlimited durability. All turbochargers have moving parts and get exposed to lots of heat from exhaust gas. Over a long enough period of use, all of them will fail so why not buy one that you know has never been abused?

I'm an IT guy so let me put this in perspective... If I was trying to build an enterprise class server (so I obviously need consistent speed and reliability) and needed to source a good hard-drive (yet another part that's prone to failure due to moving components and heat) would I cheap out and throw in a used drive? Of course not, I'd spend the extra money on a premium new drive with a warranty. On the other hand, if I was throwing together a dirt-cheap gaming rig with mostly used parts and I found a nice used 1tb drive on Ebay for 25 bucks.. sure, why not roll the dice. Get my point?

 

[bastarddsm]

If you've already made a sizeable investment in a project, why not go ahead and spend a couple hundred extra bucks for a nice new turbo with a warranty?

When you buy a used turbo, it's not like you're buying a used boat anchor or something with unlimited durability. All turbochargers have moving parts and get exposed to lots of heat from exhaust gas. Over a long enough period of use, all of them will fail so why not buy one that you know has never been abused?

I'm an IT guy so let me put this in perspective... If I was trying to building an enterprise class server (so I obviously need consistent speed and reliability) and needed to source a good hard-drive (yet another part that's prone to failure due to moving components and heat) would I cheap out and throw in a used drive? Of course not, I'd spend the extra money on a premium new drive with a warranty. On the other hand, if I was throwing together a dirt-cheap gaming rig with mostly used parts and I found a nice used 1tb drive on Ebay for 25 bucks.. sure, why not roll the dice. Get my point?

You could have bought a brand new HX40 for a similar price to a BW S362 or S259, or some GT35 variant. And it would have the same or better performance, and excellent reliability. The HX40 is the only one of those models, that a major engine manufacturer uses on its engines.

 

[jkimes]

You could have bought a brand new HX40 for a similar price to a BW S362 or S259, or some GT35 variant. And it would have the same or better performance, and excellent reliability.

My point exactly.

 

[JusMX141]

Removed 19 posts of off-topic flaming which followed an unnecessary and irrellevant off-topic post made by Andrew. Let's keep it clean from here on, fellas.

 

[thecman02]

I should probably go ahead and apologize now for this long-winded post.. I'm sorry, but I have to get this off my chest.

"Take my HX40 experience for example, I spent months reading and researching compressor maps and dyno graphs to find the theoretically perfect Holset HX40 with the exact compressor and turbine wheels that I wanted..."

There isn't months worth of compressor maps and dyno graphs to read. Sure there are thousands of posts on people discussing but any relevant info about this turbo has been pinned at the top of threads for a few years now.


"followed by weeks searching the web to find someone selling the exact model Holset I was looking for (60mm 7 blade billet HX40 pro) only to later have to immediately ship it to the shop for service when it wouldn't work properly...."

Shit happens. If you bought it new then you have bad luck. If you bought used you have to suspect it might need a rebuild. Not everyone in the world is honest.

"(the first time it needed a new snap ring as well as re-clocking and balancing). By this point I was already starting to get incredibly frustrated. "

I don't understand how the snap ring would have been messed up. Re-clocking is trivial. Balancing is good to have done so you have peace of mind.

"Everything really started to boil over later after I started hearing more and more about Holset failures due to oiling problems. So I spent even more precious time researching oiling requirements and solutions and shelled out even more money for a larger drain line and fittings, as well as an inline restrictor plus an additional inline fitting and oil pressure gauge (to carefully check my oil pressure at the turbo inlet), not to mention, hours spent meticulously porting my oil filter housing (to relieve any excess oil pressure) and welding in a larger bung to the oil pan for a bigger drain."

Read the thousands of turbo failure posts on this forum/internet. Making sure you have appropriate pressure and fittings is part of playing the game unless you're buying a direct bolt on, in which case your going to pay big bucks for the bolt on feature.


" The kicker came much later after I sent the turbo to the shop for a second time only to discover that not only did the turbo need a complete rebuild after only 500 miles, but I had also been sold the incorrect turbine housing and needed to drop another 250 bucks and several more days time to track down the theoretically perfect turbine housing for my application (17cm^2 divided T4) along with even more time and cash for custom exhaust work to make the new housing fit properly and NOW... after all that time, money, and effort... THE TURBO WON'T MAKE ANY BOOST PRESSURE OR POWER! "

It sounds like you are in way over your head when it comes to this project. Any "cheap mods" requires intimate knowledge of what you are doing and it helps to be mechanically inclined. Being ignorant = $$ and not doing your own work = $$. When you start taking peoples word for granted and not doing your own measuring and verification you're going to get burned. Case and point above^

" I could have just saved myself a mountain of time, money, and headache and simply bought a shiny new ball-bearing Garrett, FP HTA, or PTE turbo off the shelf and to top it all off I probably would have made more power with faster spool to boot. "

Or the same problem that required a relatively cheap rebuild for the holset could have caused you over $1000 for a new ball bearing center assembly. You are failing to see the blessings in front of you.

" So, I sent the turbo to the shop once again (this time to Justin) and I was told my HX40 appeared slightly worn but not too bad (likely due to oil contamination from leaky valve stem seals that were just replaced). Justin also noted that my hotside was way too big, so I had him rebuild the turbo and found a more appropriately sized housing (The original seller told me my Hx40 had an 18cm hotside and I never bothered to check.. turns out, not so much.. it was actually a massive 22cm). Justin completely rebuilt the turbo and put it back together for me with the new 17cm housing (he says the turbo is now as tight as the brand new HX40's he sells). It spins freely and doesn't smoke or make any noise. MKC had to fab up a new downpipe to make the new housing fit my exhaust, and now after all that time, money and work.. IT'S STILL DOING THE EXACT SAME THING!! The shop has triple-checked for boost and exhaust leaks and swapped in a different wastegate and BOV but the results were still almost exactly the same as before. They finally swapped out the HX40 with another divided t4 turbo they had in the shop (a used journal-bearing PTE 6265 w a divided 1.15 T4 housing) and the boost and spool immediately picked up and the car started making good power. WTF?? I GIVE UP!!"

I'm not saying your local shop is trying to pull one over on you, but if they did everything they said they did, and Justin rebuilt your turbo there really should be no problem. My line of thinking is what interest does the shop have in letting you use your own turbo, when they can sucker you into purchasing one through them possibly.


This isn't an attack on you. I'm honestly trying to help. There is positives to be gained from this post for you and anyone else who might read this thread.

Bottom line is your going to pay to play the game no matter what. I honestly don't think your coming out as badly as you think you are. Even though you've messed with the turbo quite a bit you could just as easily blown a "nicer/more expensive turbo' and been out way more.

You researched what you wanted as a consumer, but you haven't taken the time to gain the knowledge necessary to protect yourself as a consumer.

I'm interested to see what the problem with the hx40 ends up being.

 

[jkimes]

I'm not saying your local shop is trying to pull one over on you, but if they did everything they said they did, and Justin rebuilt your turbo there really should be no problem. My line of thinking is what interest does the shop have in letting you use your own turbo, when they can sucker you into purchasing one through them possibly.


This isn't an attack on you. I'm honestly trying to help. There is positives to be gained from this post for you and anyone else who might read this thread.

Bottom line is your going to pay to play the game no matter what. I honestly don't think your coming out as badly as you think you are. Even though you've messed with the turbo quite a bit you could just as easily blown a "nicer/more expensive turbo' and been out way more.

You researched what you wanted as a consumer, but you haven't taken the time to gain the knowledge necessary to protect yourself as a consumer.

I'm interested to see what the problem with the hx40 ends up being.

If I had "blown a "nicer/more expensive turbo" as you put it, it would have been brand new one and I could send it back to the manufacturer and demand a refund or replacement. With a used Holset.. not so much. It's possible you could be right about the shop "trying to pull one over on me" though. After the second time they put the car on the dyno with the HX40 and it wouldn't make boost they basically refused to continue working on the car until I put another turbo on it. He kept trying to get me to buy his 6265 but I didn't want it because the turbine housing was bigger than I wanted and i'm not sure about the history of that turbo plus it was practically the same price as a brand new 6266 cea (which is supposed to have a much more efficient wheel). When it comes time for me to pick up the car from the shop and I finally get to visually inspect it, how do I verify that the turbo I paid for is actually the one he bolted onto the car? Does anyone know the differences in physical appearance between the 6265 and the new 6266 cea?

edit: Well, I just called PTE, apparently the part number is engraved on the compressor cover outlet neck and it should end in 66. If I got screwed I should at least be able to tell without too much work.

 

[JusMX141]

If I had "blown a "nicer/more expensive turbo" as you put it, it would have been brand new one and I could send it back to the manufacturer and demand a refund or replacement. With a used Holset.. not so much.

Only problem with that is the warranty will only carry you so far. Had any turbo manufacturer disassembled your turbo and found the bearing damage that I did when I disassembled yours, the warranty would be immediately void. I function on the same system- oil contamination automatically voids all warranties. I can't afford to keep repairing turbos for free that would be working perfectly otherwise.

 

[bastarddsm]

My point exactly.

No I think you missed it completely. YOU bought a USED HX40, not a NEW HX40. A NEW HX40 is comparable in price to a NEW S366, or GT35, and comparable in performance.

You bought a used HX40 and are unhappy with it, that doesn't count against a holset in anyway, you could have bought a used GT35, and had the same or worse problems.

Furthermore you think a journal bearing GT35 or S366 is anymore immune to oiling issues that a holset? . Also, its not like you wouldn't have done the same research on any other brand turbo that your buying for 700hp.

I do agree you don't buy the HX40 because it's cheaper, you buy it because you want to run a holset. They hold thier value well because the market isn't flooded with used ones that dodge guys ditched. The reason the HX35/H1C/HY35 is a deal is because they are junk to every body else but us sport compact guys. Even then you really don't save much money, yeah the whole setup is cheaper than even a used Green/3052/pte whatever, but it will take more time to setup.

 

[jkimes]

No I think you missed it completely. YOU bought a USED HX40, not a NEW HX40. A NEW HX40 is comparable in price to a NEW S366, or GT35, and comparable in performance.

You bought a used HX40 and are unhappy with it, that doesn't count against a holset in anyway, you could have bought a used GT35, and had the same or worse problems.

Furthermore you think a journal bearing GT35 or S366 is anymore immune to oiling issues that a holset? . Also, its not like you wouldn't have done the same research on any other brand turbo that your buying for 700hp.

I do agree you don't buy the HX40 because it's cheaper, you buy it because you want to run a holset. They hold thier value well because the market isn't flooded with used ones that dodge guys ditched. The reason the HX35/H1C/HY35 is a deal is because they are junk to every body else but us sport compact guys. Even then you really don't save much money, yeah the whole setup is cheaper than even a used Green/3052/pte whatever, but it will take more time to setup.

I'm not sure I "missed it completely". My point is exactly what you said in the last post. If you want to run an HX40, buying a new one is probably your best bet because even a used hX40 or HX40pro is typically going to set you back quite a bit more coin than the more common hx35/hy35 and it may have problems due to abuse or improper installation by the previous owner. Also, I never said that "a journal bearing GT35 or S366 is anymore immune to oiling issues than a holset". The oiling issues that caused some damage to my HX40 turbo could have been due to the previous owner but I'll never know for sure because I bought a USED TURBO. My other point about extra time and research was simply meant to point out the obvious extra work and time involved to make a used Holset turbo work on our cars because most of them came directly off of a Dodge diesel truck.