Extracting the most from your setup... Fluid Dynamics, thermal insulation, etc

[mini zilo]

I feel like many people have their cars setup in ways that could be GREATLY improved over how they currently are. I am talking about small things though. In my case, I am talking about a 16g setup. I want to extract the MOST possible power I can out of it before I get rid of it. Does anyone take things like fluid dynamics and thermal insulation into account when they setup their car?

Your engine bay is full of heat, and you are trying to keep it cool. So wrapping things with a thermal insulator would help to keep hot things isolated from things that need to be cool. So what kinds of things would need to be insulated? Intercooler piping? Radiator hoses? etc...

What about the way your intercooler piping is designed? Is there possibly more power to be made through an efficiently designed intake setup? Do things like the angle of pipe bends, and stuff like that really make a difference in how much air is able to flow?

Are you able to free up restrictions just by properly designing a better "track" for the flowing air to take to your intake manifold? Do little things like this actually make a difference?

Does anyone else have anymore suggestions for things that could be improved upon in most peoples cars besides intercooler piping design and insulating the hot stuff and keeping a barrier around the cold stuff?

 

[silver bullit]

If you do this it all adds up. Search many topics regarding/similar to this.

 

[turbosax2]

Theoretically, you would think most of that stuff would make a difference. In reality, maybe a little but don't expect gobs of power by shortening your ic pipes by a foot or two. I think it will come down to power per cost. Is it worth a hundred dollars to make "efficient" ic piping to gain 2 hp?

I'm definitely with your mindset though of trying to make everything as efficient as possible.

 

[RipperXX]

I agree, there is a point at which it cost more to make your current setup more effecient and able to preduce more power, than it does to just add on x part or y upgrade.

BUT I do think about making my setup the best I can as my goal is to make my car BETTER, not just more hp or quicker in a paitculer way but better though desighn. So I do use heat shields, I am going to be re-routing my IC pipeing and I use aluminum for the pipes. Weighs less and conducts heat better. But it does cost more and your average joe can't weld it.

I am going to wrap my down pipe, and I already have a Manifold heat shield and a self fabricated lower turbo heat shield. I am going to buy a turbo "blanket" and see if it will fit or if I will have to fabricate another shield.

I am going to try a thermal insulating intake manifold gaskit when I rebuild my engine to help reduce heat transfered to the intake manifold though the head. And I am going to try to make some pieces for hte under side of my car. Sheets of aluminum most likely although I have gave some thought to thin fiberglass, to try to make the under side more aerodynamic as well as duct work to help force air though the FMIC/radiator/oil cooler. Stuff like that. IMO is worth doing.

 

[Joesmoke]

I agree. Proper heat control is important. It wont net XX hp off the bat, but improve the system overall.

Control heat:

If there is a pipe/hose that contains heat, try to ensure that it does and does not leak heat into the engine bay

If there is a pipe / hose that you want to have cool,protect from engine bay radiant heat

Sparkplug wires,wire looms,vac lines. Protect from engine bay radiant heat

I have a few bits that I collect each time I go to the local parts store. Then I try to add them in as I can.

 

[tkelly27]

Generally speaking, the air in the intercooler pipes is traveling too fast to pick up a significant amount of heat from the engine bay. From my experience intercooler ducting and design play a bigger role in heat transfer/flow restrictions than the piping itself.

This type of nit picking (I call it that jokingly, as I have a tendency to do it too) is typically not done because people dont' seem to push their setups to the edge, and there is always someone wiling to sell you a bigger turbo, or a better intercooler. When pushing the limits, every oz, every 1/4hp add up.

Unfortunately, 1/4hp is hard to repeatable measure, especially with air flow logs like is what is typically used. Even if you changed 4 bends and gained 1/4 a horsepower each, you'd be hard pressed to feel or see 1hp. I'd like to see creative ways of viewing changes that you make to your system. If you've ever dealt with a flow bench, you'd know that what's theoretically better, is not necessarily so.

Reciprocating mass is a big place where you can drop weight, and reduce the effort your engine has to put out to move your car.

 

[bastard dsm]

hey guys small things can make a big diff......i had a car in my shop that made 200hp at 25psi
with all the supporting mods for a 16g. he had crappy ic pipes so i told him that could be the problem,changed them to mandrel bent alum. pipes and bam.....310hp at 20psi.i made 445hp on a 18g and a stock 6bolt motor that i beat on for 2 years now and its still rocking hard because of small things that i have done.

 

[turboglenn]

All the small things do add up> And although hard to feel or have repeatable results when dealing in such small increments per single change (especially back to back pulls, they will be different no matter what to the degree at which we're talking here) But, and this is a BIG BUTT (pun intended ) All of these little things not only add up to a tad bit of extra power, they go a LONG WAYS towards having a better overall performing vehicle with some added reliability to boot. So is it worth doing? YES... Is your main result going to be shear power? Most likely NOT... Will there be a noticable gain in the cars OVERALL PERFORMANCE and ability to function more consistantly? YES !!!

So as long as you're not spending rediculous money to do some minor thing that you could have honestly gone with out and still see the same performance, I say it's worth it. And get creative but keep it simple and smart, One of the main differences in big name race winning cars and the one's that people built by copying said setup is all the little extra work that goes into the build.

Anyway, i ramble a lot, but wanted to point out that it's great to think the way you are and to constantly be thinking what you can do to improve what you've got to work with. New things are being done everyday, you dont' have to be a follower when you have the mental capacity to be a leader. Meaning, dont' wait for some one else to do what you thought of first just because you've never heard of it. As you may very well set the next little trend that becomes a standard over the years.

 

[absolute_DSM]

Very well said ^

Think about all of the old cripsy wires and alternators youve had to replace. Why? Because of all that damn heat. Some heat wrap and heat shields go a long way in that department.

I am a very firm believer in the air flow department. Making sure the air can get in the engine easily and get out of the engine as fast as possible is big value in the HP formula. Mandrel IC and exhaust piping, very few bends, with some internal work make that happen.

Low drivetrain loss and reciprocating mass is a VERY big factor and VERY much over looked. Enter TPG Tuning.......

 

[dsm-onster]

Doing things, though they may lead to small increases in performance now, will make a more significant impact later if you upgrade to a higher flowing system. If you do everythign you can for a 16g to extract all that can be extracted from it, then when you upgrade to say a 50-trim, you'll have a great system already in place.

hey guys small things can make a big diff......i had a car in my shop that made 200hp at 25psi
with all the supporting mods for a 16g. he had crappy ic pipes so i told him that could be the problem,changed them to mandrel bent alum. pipes and bam.....310hp at 20psi.i made 445hp on a 18g and a stock 6bolt motor that i beat on for 2 years now and its still rocking hard because of small things that i have done.

Boost leak. Not pipe flow issues.

 

[spooln4fun]

Boost leak. Not pipe flow issues.

unless his pipes were made out of cast iron, all that weight saving could equal some power

OP- i couldn't agree more with all the repsones here. It is a big reliabilty factory, longer runnning vehicle idea you have here. Like for instance. I prefer to run a castrol synthetic GTX motor oil with either a K&N filter, or a mobil 1. is it the best? I believe so, I would rather spend 50 on an oil change knowing it was done my self with good oil rather then going to walmart and using supertech. **not saying there oil is crap** but we all know that using name brand proven products usually tends to lead to less headaches(good oil=good engine life, vice versa)

 

[RipperXX]

Reciprocating mass is a big place where you can drop weight, and reduce the effort your engine has to put out to move your car.

YES!

Manufactures have already put a good bit into R&D, in the reliability area and heat control is a good place to start but reciprocating or really any moving mass (drivetrain) is a very noticeable improvement.

I myself have installed a XACT 12lb flywheel, 2600PP and SBR kevlar disk and noticed a difference in free reving it.

And whenever I finish the engine rebuild I plan to eventually get a Drive Shaft shop aluminum two piece drive shaft. And lighter wheels.


****EDIT****

I would like to bring up another issue here that deals with effeciency and longevity. Can someone present cold hard evidence that a thicker oil is better for protecting crank and rod barings?

I was told a thicker oil would be needed in an engine that produce's say twice or 3x it's desighned output BECAUSE the pressures on the barings were incressed, and push the oil out from between the barings faster, and due to this incress ware.


NOW if that is true I could see a say 15w 40Redline syn. OR AMSoil being a good choice for longevity. As it was explained to me it takes a mear fraction of a fraction of a second to do this but using thicker oil decrease's the chance & or time metal to metal contact would be made. And since it is synthetic not as parasetic as a mineral oil of the same weight?

And on that note I purchased a crank scraper last year (never got the chance to install it) but when I do the engine rebuild I am going to toss that in as well. And if I have the funds at the time perhaps look at getting the crank knife edged and re-balanced.

Correct me and or prove disprove please.

 

[TunaTalon]

Full synthetic fluids will give a little more power from lower friction. Even better is the lower friction means less wear.

Horsepower TV replaced motor oil, transmission fluid, and differential fluid with synthetic and gained about 2% HP on back to back runs.

I replaced all of the factory IC pipes with Dejon pieces for the Stroker project. Not a lot of HP gain but as you say, every little bit is good.

 

[RipperXX]

Well I know synthetics will reduce friction and ware and net more power from less friction which incress's the life span on the drive train. But what I want to see proven or disproven, is will a thicker synthetic reduce ware on a engine putting out more than stock HP. vs OE spec weight in the same high output engine.

For instance the 4G63's manual says to use 10w 30 oil in it. But thats asumeing the engine is stock. A good amount of people running something other than that. I am curious if a 15w 40 would decrese ware on an engine putting out 400hp vs 10w 30.

I myself have ran 10w 30 year round in Georgia, but that being said that was with the stock engine (105,000 miles and making around 300hp) once I rebuild it after break in I plan to use a REAL synthetic not Mobil 1 (which is what I was using) and if this can be proven (since my goal is 380whp) move to a thicker oil.

Understand that a thicker oil could mean the 2% incress in HP from less friction could be decressed from the resistance of a thicker oil. But thats not what concerns me here. The ability to repeatedly abuse my DD without ill efect is what concerns me.

 

[pneumo]

I'm in favor of doing the little things. Some of them make more of a difference than you think.

The thickness of the oil matters more than being synthetic. My car puts out over 400hp to the wheels and I used 15w50 Redline synthetic motor oil in the past. Last winter my car almost wouldn't start because the oil was so thick. So I changed the oil to 5w30 Mobile 1, relocated the oil cooler to the drivers fender, installed a vented spashguard behind the cooler so air could flow through it, then installed a small cooling fan from a motorcycle on the oil cooler and wired it up to the main fans. Now the oil temps stay cool, which helps the oil protect better, and I still get a few extra HP, especially at higher rpms.

 

[Black_Bullet]

I agree, there is a point at which it cost more to make your current setup more effecient and able to preduce more power, than it does to just add on x part or y upgrade.

BUT I do think about making my setup the best I can as my goal is to make my car BETTER, not just more hp or quicker in a paitculer way but better though desighn. So I do use heat shields, I am going to be re-routing my IC pipeing and I use aluminum for the pipes. Weighs less and conducts heat better. But it does cost more and your average joe can't weld it.

I am going to wrap my down pipe, and I already have a Manifold heat shield and a self fabricated lower turbo heat shield. I am going to buy a turbo "blanket" and see if it will fit or if I will have to fabricate another shield.

I am going to try a thermal insulating intake manifold gaskit when I rebuild my engine to help reduce heat transfered to the intake manifold though the head. And I am going to try to make some pieces for hte under side of my car. Sheets of aluminum most likely although I have gave some thought to thin fiberglass, to try to make the under side more aerodynamic as well as duct work to help force air though the FMIC/radiator/oil cooler. Stuff like that. IMO is worth doing.

I think it all helps. Ive header wrapped my entire DP, and i plan to put a JMFab heatshield over this FP manifold very soon to reduce engine bay temps.
Ive thought of the turbo blanket, basically keeping all the heat possible in the exhaust tract should actually increase spool theoretically.

Oh and something else that i felt definite gains from believe it or not was setting myself up a CAI.
Especially with a heat soaked engine bay, running your intake filter outside of the engine bay showed up as
30-40 deg temp drops on average. Colder denser air into the turbo may mean it can squeeze more in there in the first place. Its likely considering ever since i did that my turbo gained 1 more psi to redline and started spiking 1-2 psi higher than it normally would in the higher gears.

I also plan on using a plenum spacer on the intake manifold once i install my cyclone,
this should reduce some of the heat transfer going into the IM from the head.
Knit picking here and there could actually add up after you do it enough, and hell it could be the difference of a 290whp dyno vs a 300 whp dyno... You never know.

Dont forget that the most efficient FMIC setup you can get will also add to your power potiential especially if it allows for a more aggressive tune and/ or more boost.

Reciprocating mass is a big place where you can drop weight, and reduce the effort your engine has to put out to move your car.

Yes i do believe its a big factor. Something that ive found that makes very noticeable differences are lighter wheels, ( I use 12lb rx7 rims. ) and also use a XACT flywheel ( 12lbs also.) I think this stuff definitly helps.
May even contribute to my cars track proven quickness despite its lowish HP.

I think even the type of oil you use and the way your motor was built has a factor on the reciprocating mass.

Doing things, though they may lead to small increases in performance now, will make a more significant impact later if you upgrade to a higher flowing system. If you do everythign you can for a 16g to extract all that can be extracted from it, then when you upgrade to say a 50-trim, you'll have a great system already in place.

Exactly. ^^

YES!

Manufactures have already put a good bit into R&D, in the reliability area and heat control is a good place to start but reciprocating or really any moving mass (drivetrain) is a very noticeable improvement.

I myself have installed a XACT 12lb flywheel, 2600PP and SBR kevlar disk and noticed a difference in free reving it.

And whenever I finish the engine rebuild I plan to eventually get a Drive Shaft shop aluminum two piece drive shaft. And lighter wheels.

Ive been putting some thought into the DSS Aluminum driveshaft.
It can only help, and not to mention making the car sturdier as well.
The main issue is its cost, i can see myself paying 400 -450 for it but 600 + is a bit much.
This would be one of those things that when im comfortable at my HP level. Id get something like this as final measures in extracting the last little bit out of my setup without making it any less reliable with adding more actual engine power. Weight reduction doesnt cause you to break down on the side of the road .

Well I know synthetics will reduce friction and ware and net more power from less friction which incress's the life span on the drive train. But what I want to see proven or disproven, is will a thicker synthetic reduce ware on a engine putting out more than stock HP. vs OE spec weight in the same high output engine.

For instance the 4G63's manual says to use 10w 30 oil in it. But thats asumeing the engine is stock. A good amount of people running something other than that. I am curious if a 15w 40 would decrese ware on an engine putting out 400hp vs 10w 30.

I myself have ran 10w 30 year round in Georgia, but that being said that was with the stock engine (105,000 miles and making around 300hp) once I rebuild it after break in I plan to use a REAL synthetic not Mobil 1 (which is what I was using) and if this can be proven (since my goal is 380whp) move to a thicker oil.

Understand that a thicker oil could mean the 2% incress in HP from less friction could be decressed from the resistance of a thicker oil. But thats not what concerns me here. The ability to repeatedly abuse my DD without ill efect is what concerns me.

Im more concerned about oil wear properties and how fast it breaks down and loses viscosity.Ive always ran the mobil1 full synthetic 15w50. I dont trust thin oils like 10w30 .

Im at the point were im scraping for every little bit i can get out of my evo3 setup with my current octane.

My next efforts will be towards a GM maft setup to free up restriction pre turbo, and also going external gate
to get more absolute boost control and holding more psi to redline using a stiff spring in it.
I think both of those together should give a noticeable gain in how long it holds boost which on a turbo as small as a 16g focasing on its top end performance is key.

 

[RipperXX]

Take a look at the pic's in my gallery, if your going external. I went with a Evo III o2 housing and turned around and purchased a tubular one for a external Tial 38mm waste gate. My father also fabricated a nice lower heat shield to replace the ugly and cumbersom stock piece. It is visable in the pic's but I need a better picture of it.

Also the DSS Aluminum drive shaft does more than just decress the draive trains mass, since it twists more / gives more than a steel shaft, it is a little friendlier on the drive train. So I supose you consider it a reliability mod as well

I also have a oil scrapper I plan to install once I rebuild my eninge (which is a little over a year away since I am stuck in Iraq) I figure that and removing the BS, should offer a little.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Take a look at the pic's in my gallery, if your going external. I went with a Evo III o2 housing and turned around and purchased a tubular one for a external Tial 38mm waste gate. My father also fabricated a nice lower heat shield to replace the ugly and cumbersom stock piece. It is visable in the pic's but I need a better picture of it.

Also the DSS Aluminum drive shaft does more than just decress the draive trains mass, since it twists more / gives more than a steel shaft, it is a little friendlier on the drive train. So I supose you consider it a reliability mod as well

I also have a oil scrapper I plan to install once I rebuild my eninge (which is a little over a year away since I am stuck in Iraq) I figure that and removing the BS, should offer a little.

Dont forget a vented hood is good in lowering engine bay temps as long as you get the right design thats actually sucking air out instead of in.
Ripper, I couldnt really see your lower heatshield. My main issue is the FP manifold causing so much heat under hood. The Fp race manifold piece was an improvement over my ported evo3 manifold. The boost hits harder ever since i put it and it feels smoother.

Yea i am thinking about a punishment o2 housing. They seem to be the cheapest I can find. Does that o2 housing actually flow better than a EVO3 o2housing?
I hadnt seen any true 3in o2 housings with external gate, only 2.5.

Ive asked this question before to a few other memebers, but did you notice any significant difference when you first put an external gate on your 16g setup?
Did you have the standard flapper or the crappy 34mm flapper that blows open? How much boost did you run, and hold to redline if you can recall.
Thanks...

 

[awdtalontsi1992]

I run into people all the time that think they can just bolt up anything to their cars and make more power than the next guy. There is a reason that professionals get paid the big bucks to do what they do. I have seen cars that cost $10,000 to build get spanked by a guy that spent less than half that much. WTF A complete engine setup is more than just the sum of it's parts. If you stick a GT35R on a car with a stock side mount intercooler you can boost that puppy all you want and you are still leaving alot off the table.

I hear about other ricers "car guys" who say they upgrade their honda from a 2.5" exhaust to a 3" exhaust for more power. This can actually cause them to lose power. Their using such a large pipe can reduce the velocity of the exiting exhaust and hurt power. All of your parts you put on a car must be designed to work together in harmony. BIGGER ISN'T ALWAYS BETTER!!!!

If you think of water in a garden hose assuming you have a set flow of water through the hose. Using a large hose will cause the water to come out the end slowly in a small stream. This is ok but not optimal. Next imagine a small hose, the water will now come out really fast but there is restriction and the overall flow is hurt. This is still no good. Finally imagine a middle "ideal" sized hose. The water flows out fast like the small hose but there is enough size to not cause restriction. This use of an the ideal pipe has left you with no restriction but the important benefit is the increase in the speed of the water. Exhaust velocity helps play many important rolls in the power of an engine. The velocity will help the exhaust to exit the system quicker. This can help with things like turbo spool and also exhaust scavenging. Exhaust scavenging is caused by the suction of the exhaust gases flowing through the exhaust system actually "pulling" the gases after them along. This helps to produce more flow in the exhaust and actually give the gases a "boost" when exiting the heat and the combustion chamber. These same principles also apply to the intake track as well. Just ask any engine builder about choosing the proper intake port volume.

On the subject of heat wrapping and shields...YES!!!!! Doing either of these to your exhaust track has two distinct benefits. The first and the most obvious is reduced heat in the engine bay. Reduced engine bay temperatures help to keep the engine and intake components cooler and the cooler intake air will help with power. The other added benefit of keeping the heat in the exhaust is exhaust velocity. Exhaust is really just the gases expanding from the heat of combustion. The more heat the more expansion. Think of heat as water in a garden hose analogy again. Imagine a hose with the water flowing through it and the speed of the water. Now punch a bunch of tiny holes in the hose to simulate the heat radiating from the pipes. Notice how we now have less water coming out and more importantly at a slower velocity. Compared to the hose without the holes the water moves slower with less velocity and thus reduces the scavenging as mentioned before. Wrapping your exhaust pipes is like plugging the holes in the hose, helping to increase the velocity of the exhaust and it's scavenging effect.

Now onto motor oils......

All things being equal thinner oil will actually provide more power due to the decreased friction it induces. The OEMs have figured this out. This is the reason cars have been gradually switch to lighter weight oils over the years from 10w-30 to 5w20 in alot of cars now. These lighter oils help reduce friction and reduce parasitic drag loses. However this is fine for a stock car but has a huge trade off in a modified car. These modified motors produce more power but also produce alot more heat. OEM oil requirements are meant for the heat the engine of originally designed to produce. Oil will thin the more it is heated. This increased heat from more power will thin the oil to the point to where it is now longer effective at cushioning the forces against the bearings. This is why in modified engines should use a slightly higher weight oil to help maintain oil viscosity at these higher temperatures.

Well my hands are now tired and I'm done ranting for one night. Great discussion!!!

 

[Black_Bullet]

Thanks for your contribution to the thread.
I believe scavaging isnt exsistent with turbo cars, and exhaust flows a little different than water in a water hose but its still a good anology.

Good stuff...

 

[kenamond]

My random thoughts: Effective intercooler endtank design that properly distributes the charge air to all of the core. Similarly, duct design in the bumper to get external air to all of the core. Published IC efficiency and installed IC efficiency can be very different.

Go for the "low hanging fruit" or "bang for the buck" first, obviously.

 

[Scrymerr]

After reading the discussion about oil viscosity, I wanted to point out a few things
concerning the weight of oil in a modified car. Here goes:


Although it is correct that a lower temperature will decrease the viscosity of oil, this is probably not the reason behind changing the weight of oil when modifying our cars. The temperature issue is more likely dependent on climate, as one user mentioned problems he had when starting the car when it was cold. Not only is temperature a factor in determining the coefficient of friction of oil, but RPM and cylinder pressure affect it as well. When an engine is operating, oil creates a thin film between moving parts to lower friction. When there are greater forces pushing on these parts (for example: increased cylinder pressures increase the load on the crank during combustion) it will tend to 'push out' some of the oil thereby decreasing the thickness of the film. This is bad as there can be greater friction between the parts and lead to wear. In this case, a more viscous oil is desired. (I noticed another user mentioned this as well) Given not every component in an engine experiences this increase in dramatic increase in force, but whatever. Similarly, increased RPM will increase the thickness of the film, and a less viscous oil would be desired to offset this and keep friction at a minimum. In any case, looking at the factors at play
(operating temperature, RPM, cylinder pressure) temperature is the least likely variable to change when modifying the car. Highly modified cars do not run at significantly different engine temperatures than a stock car, this is one factor that generally remains constant. Of the other two variables, RPM and cylinder pressure, they may be more commonly varied, however I think increased cylinder pressure (from an increase in power) is more common. This scenario would imply that a higher weight oil be used. Now, the point of this post was not to say what oil should be used when modifying our cars, but rather point out the factors that affect oil choice. In conclusion, I just wanted to point out that temperature is not the only variable to be concerned with; there are a few factors that need to be taken into account to select the proper oil.

To touch on what the original poster said, I agree completely. I see way too many parts that are made by people with minimal knowledge of how certain things work. A good example of this is intercoolers. Although nearly all aftermarket intercoolers do a good enough job at cooling just due to the increase in size, they leave a lot to be desired. Most end-tanks are very poorly designed, and therefore less efficient. Although one user mentioned changing things like this will most likely not help out very much, it still bothers me. I own one such intercooler, and even with minimal knowledge of fluid dynamics, one can easily see the shortcomings in the design, and how they could be improved. I understand that there are certain things that prevent every component to be idealized, I really like to see people try. I like parts that were engineered, not just made. To most it is not practical to correct small inefficiencies, and I understand, but it is never a bad idea to at least be able to identify areas that could be improved.

I apologize for any errors in this post, I will check back again tomorrow. It is late, and I need to sleep. I hope this helps.

 

[Scrymerr]

My random thoughts: Effective intercooler endtank design that properly distributes the charge air to all of the core. Similarly, duct design in the bumper to get external air to all of the core. Published IC efficiency and installed IC efficiency can be very different.

Go for the "low hanging fruit" or "bang for the buck" first, obviously.

You posted this as I was typing, and I agree completely. Poor endtank design makes me sad.

 

[RipperXX]

Dont forget a vented hood is good in lowering engine bay temps as long as you get the right design thats actually sucking air out instead of in.
Ripper, I couldnt really see your lower heatshield. My main issue is the FP manifold causing so much heat under hood. The Fp race manifold piece was an improvement over my ported evo3 manifold. The boost hits harder ever since i put it and it feels smoother.

Yea i am thinking about a punishment o2 housing. They seem to be the cheapest I can find. Does that o2 housing actually flow better than a EVO3 o2housing?
I hadnt seen any true 3in o2 housings with external gate, only 2.5.

Ive asked this question before to a few other memebers, but did you notice any significant difference when you first put an external gate on your 16g setup?
Did you have the standard flapper or the crappy 34mm flapper that blows open? How much boost did you run, and hold to redline if you can recall.
Thanks...

First, Thank you Scrymerr. You pretty much said what I was trying to but better. My main concern was that a OEM oil would be to thin as the incressed cyl pressure would force the oil from the barings faster, leaving less of a film and causing incressed ware.


Now, far as a vented hood. No thanks there ugly as sin on a 1ga . Although I do plan to go with a CF hood. If there was a less hidius one out there that maybe had luvers insted of a Evo style vent I would go with it. But there doesn't seem to be so oh well.

And as far as my Evo 16g and external setup. Now I didn't notice a big difference other than it got rid of the creep issue and left me with parts / setup I will need if I ever decide to go with a bigger turbo.

As far as what I had to compair it too was a Evo III 16g w/ Evo III o2 housing, now I did have a 34mm flapper installed. It didn't blow open but it did still creep. So I then got the tubuler o2 housing which I forget the size of at the moment (in iraq so I can't go out and measure) but I think it is 2 1/2" I got it from extream psi (i think) Very nice thick flanges and good welds. Only thing I didn't like about it was the fact that it looked like the pipe for the external was offset 1mm or so, no big deal nice piece though.

spool may have picked up 100rpm or so not 100% sure, but it got rid of the creep. Before I installed the external setup though I did do a little port work to the internal waste gate passage. BTW cutting / removing the internal flapper is easy, but whatever kind of steel the thing is made out of is hard as crap so have a good sharp hack saw blade and you will need a welder to fill in the hole from the flapper's arm.

As far as how much boost I was running, 20psi was the target boost before install, but it would creep up to 23. After consistant 20 on the money. Run up to it fast as hell and stop on a dime.


Also you may be able to notice on my FMIC, the end tanks inlet and outlet come stright off the end tanks. I went with it because of this, even though it was more anoying to install. As it means the air isn't going into the end tank and slamming into a wall and then having to make a sharp turn. Just made more since to me for it to take a nice smooth turn via manderal bent pipe and flow right into the core.

 

[kenamond]

Also you may be able to notice on my FMIC, the end tanks inlet and outlet come stright off the end tanks. I went with it because of this, even though it was more anoying to install. As it means the air isn't going into the end tank and slamming into a wall and then having to make a sharp turn. Just made more since to me for it to take a nice smooth turn via manderal bent pipe and flow right into the core.

Actually, firing straight into the core isn't necessarily good. Inside the end tank, you want vanes/guides that "peel off" sections of the inlet flow and send them to different parts of the core. If you don't have these vanes/guides, most of the charge air runs through the center of the core and very little of the top/bottom of the core is actually doing anything (your IC acts like it's half as tall as it actually is. Firing into the core at 90° is actually a very good design; the air entering closest to the core gets peeled off first, then the next slice goes to the next section, etc. And the end tank overall shape tapers from wide to thin as you go away from the inlet much like a good SMIM or fuel rail. That keeps pressure in the endtank relatively constant throughout so that air is pushed through the core evenly (and all of it has roughly the same time in the core to cool). One of the best IC designs is to pump through the short length (into the long edge) of the core so that air speeds are slower and pressure drop/loss is therefore smaller. Those are hard to fit on our cars, though (vertical internal flow with endtanks on the top/bottom and a core that's wider than it is tall). If I could fit it, I'd fire up into the left endtank and up out of the right endtank (which saves you 90° of turn out of the IC). If you have Corky Bell's "Maximum Boost", he covers a lot of that with pictures.