Extracting the most from your setup... Fluid Dynamics, thermal insulation, etc

[Black_Bullet]

First, Thank you Scrymerr. You pretty much said what I was trying to but better. My main concern was that a OEM oil would be to thin as the incressed cyl pressure would force the oil from the barings faster, leaving less of a film and causing incressed ware.


Now, far as a vented hood. No thanks there ugly as sin on a 1ga . Although I do plan to go with a CF hood. If there was a less hidius one out there that maybe had luvers insted of a Evo style vent I would go with it. But there doesn't seem to be so oh well.

And as far as my Evo 16g and external setup. Now I didn't notice a big difference other than it got rid of the creep issue and left me with parts / setup I will need if I ever decide to go with a bigger turbo.

As far as what I had to compair it too was a Evo III 16g w/ Evo III o2 housing, now I did have a 34mm flapper installed. It didn't blow open but it did still creep. So I then got the tubuler o2 housing which I forget the size of at the moment (in iraq so I can't go out and measure) but I think it is 2 1/2" I got it from extream psi (i think) Very nice thick flanges and good welds. Only thing I didn't like about it was the fact that it looked like the pipe for the external was offset 1mm or so, no big deal nice piece though.

spool may have picked up 100rpm or so not 100% sure, but it got rid of the creep. Before I installed the external setup though I did do a little port work to the internal waste gate passage. BTW cutting / removing the internal flapper is easy, but whatever kind of steel the thing is made out of is hard as crap so have a good sharp hack saw blade and you will need a welder to fill in the hole from the flapper's arm.

As far as how much boost I was running, 20psi was the target boost before install, but it would creep up to 23. After consistant 20 on the money. Run up to it fast as hell and stop on a dime.

The people ive spoken with who noticed a significant difference from going external on small turbos either had 34mm flappers blowing open previously, or they were running much more boost than you were.
If only running 20lbs the 16g will hold that in most cases, its when your trying to hold 22-24 to redline which would max out that turbo.

I think 90% of the vented hoods arent tasteful on a 1g I agree.
The only one i find that is ok is the one that Mavisky has.
For someone who was completely performance minded it wouldnt matter so much how it looked and more so of how it performed.

 

[pneumo]

Oh that reminds me. IC efficiency is affected by how fast outside air is moving through it. So turn on the fans to get more air through a FMIC.
It's easy to do, just unplug the single wire going to the AC compressor, then use the AC switch on the dash to turn the fans on/off. It's helpfull when the car is stopped or moving slowly, like when driving in city traffic, or creeping up through the staging lanes. It also keeps the radiator from warming up the back of the IC.
I honestly don't know if it helps at all, but it's free and easy to do, so why not?

 

[RipperXX]

I don't really think that would help anything, (just my view) at low speeds your not normally doing much boosting unless your doing some kind of rally. And at highway speeds the fans actually get in the way more than they do help.

Also about my FMIC. Nice to know that....now . But considering I didn't go with a pricey ass Spearco (I am on a budget) I thought it was a good one (Vibrant preformance) eh. And since I am not cutting my front bumper up to get more airflow to the top half of it. I don't think it matters much if the airflow is mostly in the center, since thats where most of the outside air is flowing though it. Although it is something to think about. Maybe while I am rebuilding the enigne I will cut the endtanks off and have someone weld some in.

And the reason I am not going with a vented hood. is well I am not going for 100% performance, but a nice balance. I am trying to make my car what I think Mitsu should have when they manufactured it .



Oh and on the external waste gate. It has boosted as high as 25psi (by mistake) and yea there was a noticeable difference there. But seeing as it wasn't tuned at all And had 4* of timing retard (knock) at 25psi. I figured I would leave it at 20 unitll I got it tuned . Which now is taken a back seat to the blown HG wich is where I said hell with it ima just rebuild the whole damn engine. The blown HG is from a damn leaky koyo drain plug. Learned that lesson the hard way. DO NOT OVER TIGHTEN!!!! it pushed out the o-ring used to seal it on the top where I couldn't see. And pissed out it's coolant untill she over heated BADLY.

Was running I nice cool 180* before that and I only say a peak of 189* ever so... damn o-ring.




Oh yea , I also installed a power steering cooler... duno if it helps but it was an old transmition cooler on a ford. I had it sitting around so I said what the hell? It may be visable in my pic's I am not sure. It's on the passanger side infront of the radiator. I already have the oil cooler since I have a 90 so I got rid of the little dinky cooling "pipe" thing that was infront of the radiator for this. It was pretty much a free upgrade so eh. Funny thing is I think it is a hair larger than the stock oil cooler .

*EDIT* just checked, the photo isn't in there...nm

 

[tkelly27]

I hear about other ricers "car guys" who say they upgrade their honda from a 2.5" exhaust to a 3" exhaust for more power. This can actually cause them to lose power. Their using such a large pipe can reduce the velocity of the exiting exhaust and hurt power. All of your parts you put on a car must be designed to work together in harmony. BIGGER ISN'T ALWAYS BETTER!!!!

If you think of water in a garden hose assuming you have a set flow of water through the hose. Using a large hose will cause the water to come out the end slowly in a small stream. This is ok but not optimal. Next imagine a small hose, the water will now come out really fast but there is restriction and the overall flow is hurt. This is still no good. Finally imagine a middle "ideal" sized hose. The water flows out fast like the small hose but there is enough size to not cause restriction. This use of an the ideal pipe has left you with no restriction but the important benefit is the increase in the speed of the water. Exhaust velocity helps play many important rolls in the power of an engine. The velocity will help the exhaust to exit the system quicker. This can help with things like turbo spool and also exhaust scavenging. Exhaust scavenging is caused by the suction of the exhaust gases flowing through the exhaust system actually "pulling" the gases after them along. This helps to produce more flow in the exhaust and actually give the gases a "boost" when exiting the heat and the combustion chamber. These same principles also apply to the intake track as well. Just ask any engine builder about choosing the proper intake port volume.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. The only reason people loose torque when running a bigger pipe is that they haven't compensated for it with camshaft timing, spark timing, or fuel. In the NA cars they will often simply go lean, other times they will need the cams readjusted to fit the better flowing exhaust. That is if they loose it at all, generally the torque curve is pushed up in the RPM band, which people experience as a torque loss, when in actuality they are making more torque and power at higher RPMs. That is to say it will feel less powerful, but in the end, it is more. In general terms, bigger is always better after the turbo.

I have seen instances where 2.5" made more power than a 3", but that was for a bolt on system without tuning compensation in any of the maps or cams. I imagine that the 3" would have made more power had the engine and computer been setup for it. It also seems to affect smaller turbos more than bigger ones. Why? I don't rightly know. The cut off for DSMs and being able to feel the torque loss seems to be in the 14b rang, as that's all I've ever heard people say they've lost torque when stepping up to the bigger pipe size. Again, that torque is never lost, just not tuned for.

Pre-turbo tubing can be debated about heat retention, velocity, and all that, but go take a look at Shep's car and see how concerned he is about flow losses, heat retention, and velocity. It seems not at all based on the size and length of the tubes...


Oh yeah, IC ducting, did I mention that? Like on the ETS website, if you have your IC blocked by your bumper, it's not going to do diddly!

 

[dsm-onster]

Some of my results. . . I have been experimenting. And the faster spooling turbos do seam to respond somewhat to smaller exhaust, in the early rpms, from my experience with a t25 and toyota ct26 (tiny turbos). I've always seen bigger or no exhaust help *peak* flow no matter, what up to the limit of the turbocharger.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. The only reason people loose torque when running a bigger pipe is that they haven't compensated for it with camshaft timing, spark timing, or fuel. In the NA cars they will often simply go lean, other times they will need the cams readjusted to fit the better flowing exhaust. That is if they loose it at all, generally the torque curve is pushed up in the RPM band, which people experience as a torque loss, when in actuality they are making more torque and power at higher RPMs. That is to say it will feel less powerful, but in the end, it is more. In general terms, bigger is always better after the turbo.

I have seen instances where 2.5" made more power than a 3", but that was for a bolt on system without tuning compensation in any of the maps or cams. I imagine that the 3" would have made more power had the engine and computer been setup for it. It also seems to affect smaller turbos more than bigger ones. Why? I don't rightly know. The cut off for DSMs and being able to feel the torque loss seems to be in the 14b rang, as that's all I've ever heard people say they've lost torque when stepping up to the bigger pipe size. Again, that torque is never lost, just not tuned for.

Pre-turbo tubing can be debated about heat retention, velocity, and all that, but go take a look at Shep's car and see how concerned he is about flow losses, heat retention, and velocity. It seems not at all based on the size and length of the tubes...


Oh yeah, IC ducting, did I mention that? Like on the ETS website, if you have your IC blocked by your bumper, it's not going to do diddly!

Interesting view point. Sounds reasonable.

Depending the setup, I think in a lot of cases the torque is more so just spread out
( powerband ) therefore it may "feel" like a torque lose .

Sheps car is only ran under wot for less than 8 seconds at a time, not to mention the type of fuel he uses, i dont think heatsoak in tubing or whatever; is something he'd be worried about either.

But on a car that rallies, autox, road race, or even cars ran hard on the street, preventing the setup from heatsoak after long hard extended runs may be more crucial then you'd think....

I agree that your IC can be not performing as well as it could be without proper IC ducting and bumper cutting.

A lot of people will disagree with cutting their bumpers
(btw I cut mines, the laser front bumper cover is very restrictive; and goofy looking imo.)
but i do think it helps. I also ran sheet metal ducting under the whole bottom of the front of the car just a little past the radiator support. That helped dropped coolant temps also due to the air getting to the radiator instead of getting sucked underneathe the car.

 

[Mr Peepers]

For the motor oil weight discussion:
FerrariChat.com - FAQ: Motor Oil Articles by Dr. Ali E. Haas (AEHaas)

From my understanding, there is a large difference between pressurized bearings and "splash" lubricated bearings as far as oil weight requirement and lubrication properties go. This is where I believe most of the confusion is caused.

Kenamond I think you bring up a GREAT point in intercooler end tank design. It's something that I've often thought about.

I strongly believe in doing even the smallest of improvements, especially if it only involves some planning, time, and a negligible amount of money. I enjoy making the most out of a given setup, that's the main reason why I'm into cars. I'm not saying you can't go too far.

There is a certain satisfaction about tailoring everything to exactly how you want it and making it work perfectly as a system. It's not just the end result, either. Even if it takes you years to finally call it finished, it was a labor of love.

 

[dsm-onster]

Going fast is but half the fun .

 

[RipperXX]

So true, ever since I can remember. I have always loved improving systems. Not so much trying to make them, just improving on someone else's stuff .

The idea of tuning, and improving any engine interests me. If I had a engine dyno, oh hell I would never come out to see day light .

 

[Black_Bullet]

For the motor oil weight discussion:
FerrariChat.com - FAQ: Motor Oil Articles by Dr. Ali E. Haas (AEHaas)

From my understanding, there is a large difference between pressurized bearings and "splash" lubricated bearings as far as oil weight requirement and lubrication properties go. This is where I believe most of the confusion is caused.

Kenamond I think you bring up a GREAT point in intercooler end tank design. It's something that I've often thought about.

I strongly believe in doing even the smallest of improvements, especially if it only involves some planning, time, and a negligible amount of money. I enjoy making the most out of a given setup, that's the main reason why I'm into cars. I'm not saying you can't go too far.

There is a certain satisfaction about tailoring everything to exactly how you want it and making it work perfectly as a system. It's not just the end result, either. Even if it takes you years to finally call it finished, it was a labor of love.

+ 1


Another thing that can slightly improve air flow is if you properly, port the turbo.
There are some casting flaws and edges that protrude a little on exhaust and compressor side and i think theres improvement to be had there given that the job was done right.

My turbo was ported by the previous owner a long time ago, and id say he did a good job on it from how he was explaining it.

Side note,
I know this isnt too big in the dsm scene, but on a internal waste gate setup like mines
would shimming the wastegate actuator a little help the flapper not open as easily, or just not reach full opening length. Would it just cause a nastier boost spike, or actually improve spool/ boost at redline?

Ive heard of other car groups speaking about it before and were im at currently on my setup, is in trying to get this little 16g to hold boost as long as possible instead of nose diving; and im observing all my options
(short of welding the damn flapper shut.)

Its funny, but on cold nights, ive actually seen a difference of up to 2 psi thoroughout the entire midrange and up to redline which was a significant difference in how hard it pulled.

Ive heard of premature w.g. issues from this and i know its certainly not ideal, and I dont think im going to attempt it since I plan on going external gate w/ the stiffest spring I can put, but it crossed my mind and doesnt hurt to ask.

 

[Mr Peepers]

Side note,
I know this isnt too big in the dsm scene, but on a internal waste gate setup like mines
would shimming the wastegate actuator a little help the flapper not open as easily, or just not reach full opening length. Would it just cause a nastier boost spike, or actually improve spool/ boost at redline?

Ive heard of other car groups speaking about it before and were im at currently on my setup, is in trying to get this little 16g to hold boost as long as possible instead of nose diving; and im observing all my options
(short of welding the damn flapper shut.)

Its funny, but on cold nights, ive actually seen a difference of up to 2 psi thoroughout the entire midrange and up to redline which was a significant difference in how hard it pulled.

Ive heard of premature w.g. issues from this and i know its certainly not ideal, and I dont think im going to attempt it since I plan on going external gate w/ the stiffest spring I can put, but it crossed my mind and doesnt hurt to ask.

If you are dropping boost, it means you have room to play with before boost creep sets in.

If you can find a middle ground between dropping boost and creeping, you should hold boost better to redline if it was the flapper blowing open. It could be the compressor reaching its limit as well, maybe why an intake temperature change makes such a difference. I've found that colder ambient temps instigate boost creep as well; I'm not exactly sure how the two are related. The compressor doesn't require the same rpm to reach the same pressure ratio?

I don't know why shimming the WGA would cause boost spike, but I guess Slowboy's internal WG turbo test proved it. I would actually think that since it's acting like a stiffer spring with more preload, a ball and spring MBC would have to be set softer to reach the same psi. This would make the ball lift from its seat sooner and the WGA see pressure at a lower psi, giving it more time to gradually open.

You could also put a tension spring onto the flapper lever holding it closed a little tighter. You may need a fairly stiff spring to see any results, IIRC the preload on a TD05H WGA was in the 50 lb range, but that was just from area measurements and a rough cracking pressure. Both shimming and and going external (spring ) will require the MBC to be changed to reach the same desired psi.

All speculation.

 

[tsitalon03]

As far as dropping temps goes I highly recommend a cold air box to anyone who doesnt have 1. Its a very simple effective mod.

 

[Black_Bullet]

If you are dropping boost, it means you have room to play with before boost creep sets in.

If you can find a middle ground between dropping boost and creeping, you should hold boost better to redline if it was the flapper blowing open. It could be the compressor reaching its limit as well, maybe why an intake temperature change makes such a difference. I've found that colder ambient temps instigate boost creep as well; I'm not exactly sure how the two are related. The compressor doesn't require the same rpm to reach the same pressure ratio?

I don't know why shimming the WGA would cause boost spike, but I guess Slowboy's internal WG turbo test proved it. I would actually think that since it's acting like a stiffer spring with more preload, a ball and spring MBC would have to be set softer to reach the same psi. This would make the ball lift from its seat sooner and the WGA see pressure at a lower psi, giving it more time to gradually open.

You could also put a tension spring onto the flapper lever holding it closed a little tighter. You may need a fairly stiff spring to see any results, IIRC the preload on a TD05H WGA was in the 50 lb range, but that was just from area measurements and a rough cracking pressure. Both shimming and and going external (spring ) will require the MBC to be changed to reach the same desired psi.

All speculation.

Well from what you say it may be worth a try to shim it. Do you have anylinks to that slowboy test?

Im not really sure if im coming close to maxing out this compressor in airflow but probably. I cant log past 1603 htz in the maf with my mmcd logging program.

If shimming the WGA makes my car spike harder i dont think I should try it.
Im already seeing 24-25 psi spikes in 4th and 5th gear, and if its cold out 3rd will spike that high also.
I simply had to set the AFR as rich as 10.7 and the timing down to 11 degs in this rpm area to deal with the spike,
but honestly my car feels "slower" down low when im at 25lbs due to how soft my tune gets to compensate.
The 16g is just becoming a hair dryer at that level, and Its not like I have a uber efficient intercooler,
I have a black spray painted old school ebay core.
So far my car is happiest at 23-24 psi max, anything more and the tuning gets funky.

If modding the WGA in turn makes it simply a matter of adjusting the MBC to deal with it; wont that just be compensating for the boost spikes, or actually still allowing more total psi to redline.

I understand that the more you increase the flow of the motor the more likely boost will fall, therefore
I realize boost dropping off isnt always a bad thing and it just means your outflowing your turbo at that psi/rpm.

But with only cams ( no smim) I should be able to get more psi, thats why i was leaning towards external w.g. with the stiffest spring I can find and a blow thru setup to help free up that last little bit.

Id love to see 23-24 psi to even 6500. I know it can be done.
Im down to about 20 by that time. I dont have the 34mm w.g. flapper mod.

Maybe DSMonster knows something about this WGA modding, he seems to be a guru on these subjects.

As far as dropping temps goes I highly recommend a cold air box to anyone who doesnt have 1. Its a very simple effective mod.

Yea i had mentioned that earlier in this thread.

A true CAI setup helped lower my IAT's 30-40 degs and it helped with boost holding.
Just properly set it up that you wont suck up any water and other than that its an awsome mod. If interested i can post pics of how i did my set up.

 

[Mr Peepers]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...8481-internally-gated-turbos-tested-dyno.html

Post #6 & 9.

If your flapper is blowing open, a MBC can do nothing to stop it (besides lower the psi in the first place). Having a stiffer spring, whether from shimming or putting a spring on the flapper lever will help keep it from being controlled by turbine housing pressures alone. This will also cause the WGA/flapper to be harder to open, hence the MBC needing to be turned down to compensate for the higher cracking pressure. IIRC, the general rule of thumb is to have the WG spring at least half of the desired boost pressure for accurate boost control, and adding another spring or shimming is essentially stiffening the WG spring. Remember, this will only help if the flapper is blowing open in the first place.

Hooking an extra spring on the flapper lever may be a better choice, as shimming the WGA will add more volume behind the diaphragm, requiring a larger volume of air to initially move the WGA. This may be the reason why shimming the WGA tends to cause boost spike.

I remember DSM-onster saying something about upping the boost solely by tightening the WGA arm on some turbo Fords. He knows a lot more about turbos as a whole and I'm looking forward to his reply.

 

[Black_Bullet]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...8481-internally-gated-turbos-tested-dyno.html

Post #6 & 9.

If your flapper is blowing open, a MBC can do nothing to stop it (besides lower the psi in the first place). Having a stiffer spring, whether from shimming or putting a spring on the flapper lever will help keep it from being controlled by turbine housing pressures alone. This will also cause the WGA/flapper to be harder to open, hence the MBC needing to be turned down to compensate for the higher cracking pressure. IIRC, the general rule of thumb is to have the WG spring at least half of the desired boost pressure for accurate boost control, and adding another spring or shimming is essentially stiffening the WG spring. Remember, this will only help if the flapper is blowing open in the first place.

Hooking an extra spring on the flapper lever may be a better choice, as shimming the WGA will add more volume behind the diaphragm, requiring a larger volume of air to initially move the WGA. This may be the reason why shimming the WGA tends to cause boost spike.

I remember DSM-onster saying something about upping the boost solely by tightening the WGA arm on some turbo Fords. He knows a lot more about turbos as a whole and I'm looking forward to his reply.

Thanks, Appreciated.
I am familure with the SBR turbo testing.

They do mention it spikes harder when they tightened the WGA rod. ( Shimming?)

Ultimately the external gate withe a stiff spring will be the best and possibly only true solution for rock solid boost control and maximizing boost to redline for peak power outputs.

I also wondered how this FP manifold im using now affects the turbos airflow / boost
as there has been no solid tests or dynos done in comparison to it vs other cast manis.
All i can tell so far from my own experience is transient boost reponse is better, it felt like it gave it more torque, and also it gave the exhaust note more of a rumble at lower rpms.

 

[tsitalon03]

Yea post some pics so I can see how you did your CAI setup

 

[dsm-onster]

Congrats Peeps! Only now does you're hazing begin .

From soley my experience, spiking is a result of a ball-&-spring boost controller. Tightening the wastegate spring by shimming or shortening the arm adds to the spike. But removing the ball-&-spring and replacing with either a bleeder, or running off tighter wastegate pressure that results in the same boost and doing away with valve boost control elimintated boost spike in my particular experiences.

Now, the nature of a ball-&-spring controller is to allow no boost signal until the predetermined boost is reached then slowly let in flow to raise the signal pressure in the line after it to the actuator. My gillis boost valve has a SMALL TINY bleeder hole. My ebay SRP has a ginormic hole. I have much more spike with the ebay ball-&-spring. But both will show spike when you screw them down very far. But that characteristic which has the sideeffect of spike is why I love ball-&-spring controllers. The wastegate doesn't start working earlier than when your desired boost is reached. Notably faster spool results. This is another little thing that really helps make a setup a better build. The generic gillis valve controls 1-20psi without much spike. When you want your gillis valve to control a higher boost without spiking, you order another stiffer valve spring. So a small bleeder hole with different springs for your ball-&-spring valve battles spike much better.

If the proper spring is used a good valve can control boost rather solid to nearly 30 psi on an internal gate. It WILL take experimenting with different springs to get that. Even moddifying the springs themselves. Many opt for a bleeder valve to eliminate this headache. Or an ebay big-hole ball-&-spring valve that really is more of a bleeder valve. But I spool much faster. It's worth it. Again, it's another little thing that when added to other little differences makes a large impact.

I had excellent results with Peeps modded wastgate actutator. He added spring preload control. I tightened the spring by shortening the arm (identical to shimming the actuator at the compressor mount), and my base boost with no boost controller went up. No spiking. I added a good ball-&-spring boost controller and I could dial boost in higher. But I really just wanted that quicker spool that a ball-&-spring controller affords. Did the same thing for years with turbo-ford and GN garretts.

Its funny, but on cold nights, ive actually seen a difference of up to 2 psi thoroughout the entire midrange and up to redline which was a significant difference in how hard it pulled.

If you can find a middle ground between dropping boost and creeping, you should hold boost better to redline if it was the flapper blowing open. It could be the compressor reaching its limit as well, maybe why an intake temperature change makes such a difference. I've found that colder ambient temps instigate boost creep as well; I'm not exactly sure how the two are related. The compressor doesn't require the same rpm to reach the same pressure ratio?

Boost creap is a funtion of the turbineside not exhausting enough MASS through the wastegate. On a cold night, less boost is required to achieve the same massflow/hp. But we have boost controllers not massflow controllers. This there is more mass flowing into the combustion chamber. ASSuming that the exhaust gases are similar and the volume flow is the same (which it usually is: the compressor does rotate at the same rpm and the VE of the system is the same), the exhaust manifold has the same temp and volume with more mass (or number of molecules). Thus pressure across the turbine blades goes up. The wastegate has to flow better earlier to negate the more work provided earlier. If the wastegate flows poorly, you see creap earlier and it rises to a higher intake psi.



Black_Bullet, your evo3 16g can definately drop to 23ish psi by redline with just your cam upgrade with even your flapper welded shut. It's interesting that 99% of the guys complain about boost falling are 1g guys or 2g guys with a 1g head & intake mani.

It's not about boost, it's about flow. Personally, I don't care what my boost gauge reads by redline. I only look at it to insure she's not boosting beyond my setting. I wish I had a tach on my compressor wheel. I guess I'd be happy with a post turbo air temp sensor and the volume flow log from my karmen MAF. Compressor rpm can be calculated from that. Dropping boost doesn't mean the engine is loosing flow. It just means that the compressor can't maintain the flow demand at that certain boost. That sentence can be misleading because one could assume that a turbo flows more at a lower boost. But last I checked a compressor map fans up and to the right . However if you change your point of view: Boost is a sideeffect of cramming air into your engine at poor VE. Leave it at that and you'll go faster.

Holding boost to redline by NOT porting/modifying a poorflowing wastegate could mean that your engine VE is dropping because the exhaust gases can't escape the exhaust manifold quick enough. If we had a tach on the compressor, we could see how much more exhaust gas energy we need to reach the highest desired rpm of the compressor and exhaust the rest. Guys who max out the evo3 16g boost to 30 psi and let it fall to whatever boost that may result.

A good flowing wastegate helps total VE in certain cases. The turbine needs only so much exhaust energy to spin a compressor at its highest desired rpm. Another little detail that when overlooked may no make a difference on your particular setup. But where your same turbo is pushed MUCH harder will yield a positive result.

 

[dsm-onster]

I also wondered how this FP manifold im using now affects the turbos airflow / boost
as there has been no solid tests or dynos done in comparison to it vs other cast manis.
All i can tell so far from my own experience is transient boost reponse is better, it felt like it gave it more torque, and also it gave the exhaust note more of a rumble at lower rpms.

Oh, to me the FP manifold is a clear example of using the small details to make a significant impact. The collector is what should be looked at here. It differs greatly from a stock manifold and even an ebay manifold. Anyone who's decent with a welder can duplicate the concept. I'm not negating FP's hard-earned results in design. Besides, where can you get this technique cast? But the concept is what makes the little detail work.

Assuming you're noticing the exhaust note at lower revs while gassing it, "more of a rumble at lower rpms" means that more exhaust gases are escaping without being used. That means that the exhaust gases that are being used are doing a better job. The better transient boost response is another clue to back this up.

 

[RipperXX]

I personally would love to see a test of the Evo III manifold and the FP. Maybe some day someone will get us some dyno results with no other changes.

I know I loved my EvoIII going from the 1g manifold.

 

[dsm-onster]

What was the difference in results? Which turbo were you using?

 

[RipperXX]

I personally would love to see a test of the Evo III manifold and the FP. Maybe some day someone will get us some dyno results with no other changes.

I know I loved my EvoIII going from the 1g manifold.

 

[Black_Bullet]

DSMonster,
Thanks for always typing out those thorough essays i get to tire my eyes with.
You always have a lot of input.

I will certainly look into that Gillis boost mod.

Regarding the turbo, theres a few threads i had been browsing about guys who have made their turbos hold boost longer than average, thats why I was looking towards exteracting that type of potiential in my setup; and mentioning freeing up every last bit with ex w.g. stiff springs & Blow threw mod etc.

I do understand that boost can sort of be viewed as irrelevant,
and that air flow should be the main thing to look for.
I cant log air flow high enough with my logger to indicate were Im already at; an educated guess would tell me around 36 lb/min, maybe a bit more when its colder out and i do know that there is a lot more flow left in my turbo.

The fp Manifolds design does suggest aiding of spool up just by looking at it; and can be closely compared with the T3 tubulars and etc. I was curious on air flow changes due to ease of exhaust flow, when considering the easier out, easier in theory. My main speculation is that it increases low to mid range torque more than anything. There was a bit of a different when i swapped my old cracked 1g mani for an evo3 ( ported ) and now theres a even bigger difference swapping my ported evo3 mani for the FP race mani...

Every inch counts !

Good stuff in this thread.

EDIT:
DSMonster, I already have the Joe P. MBC. Its ball and spring, and it does have a small little hole on it the bleeds out air when i boost leak test after it reaches a certain psi.
The bleeder valve's you linked in that link work in getting much more solid boost control even when the interal waste gate is inadequate? Basically, Id like to see my boost gauge hit 24 psi in every gear without spiking to more than that, regardless of ambient temp etc. and hold that amount of boost as long as possible;

 

[Black_Bullet]

Yea post some pics so I can see how you did your CAI setup

Read thru the whole thread.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bol...ld-air-intake-done-right-5.html#post151416062

 

[dsm-onster]

EDIT:
DSMonster, I already have the Joe P. MBC. Its ball and spring, and it does have a small little hole on it the bleeds out air when i boost leak test after it reaches a certain psi.
The bleeder valve's you linked in that link work in getting much more solid boost control even when the interal waste gate is inadequate? Basically, Id like to see my boost gauge hit 24 psi in every gear without spiking to more than that, regardless of ambient temp etc. and hold that amount of boost as long as possible;

The Gillis Valve is not a bleeder valve but a ball-and-spring valve. I don't know how a Joe P. rates against the Gillis Valve. I don't know if it's even a ball-and-spring valve. If it is, I'd try swapping to a stiffer spring and tweek it with the set screw first, though.

 

[Black_Bullet]

The Gillis Valve is not a bleeder valve but a ball-and-spring valve. I don't know how a Joe P. rates against the Gillis Valve. I don't know if it's even a ball-and-spring valve. If it is, I'd try swapping to a stiffer spring and tweek it with the set screw first, though.

Ok, so the stiffer spring allows for less spike; more consistency?

The Gillis valve is pretty much similar to the Joe P. Mbc?

JoePMBC.com.. Performance Products for Turbo Cars.

( mines looks like the one on that page that says xz.
But it was ordered so long ago that i probably have a old version of whatever they haven out.)

Thanks. This can be taken to PM to not clutter up this thread.