Engine seized on initial start-up.

[5150DSM]

If you pull the Trans without the motor the converter MUST come out with the trans!!! It is damn near impossible to get that thing out of there with the converter still on the motor. Save yourself some issues and just pull it all. If that TQ gets bound up in the pump your in for a ride. Just some advice i have had this happen to me.

Unfortunately that's not going to be possible, as I am unable to access the flexplate bolts to disconnect from the torque converter... nothing spins.

On another note... I just pulled the oil pan and found that the bottom end is completely intact, all the main and rod bolts are torqued to spec, nothing let go, nothing is binding. With the oil pan off you can clearly hear that the clunk is from the transmission, worse yet, it is definitely not the flexplate bolts. What I previously thought was a backed out bolt just has a ring of Loctite under it giving the illusion of having backed out. I got eyes on all the flexplate bolts and the are free to rotate, nothing is in the way of them. So now I guess this moves on from a motor seized issue to a transmission binding/locked-up issue.

Trans info:

1G AWD Auto. Kiggly front clutch pack, IPT end clutches, Kiggly flexpate, TRE welded center dif, no viscous.

What might be binding in the transmission? I'm thinking to pull the center dif in car and see if I can detect any issues, unfortunately, I am far from a trans expert and might not even see what is wrong unless it's dead obvious.
Ideas anyone?

 

[5150DSM]

Just went out and opened up the transmission. With the transfer idler gear in, the center dif will not turn by hand; with the transfer idler gear out, the center dif spins by hand and rotates the front wheels. The idler gear itself spins freely on it's shaft and bearings when outside the case. The motor will not spin by hand in either condition. I am not able to rotate the input shaft from either via the end-clutch drum or the crankshaft. I've concluded that the transfer portion of the trans is fine, everything works as it should; I'm concentrating on the input portion of the trans now but I can't think of any way to test in vehicle.

I haven't ruled out the motor as of yet but my suspicions lie with the transmission, in either case, it looks like the whole assembly will have to come out to make any determination. The only other thing I can think to do while the assembly is still in car is to try and disengage the trans from the torque converter/motor and see if the crank spins without the trans hanging on it.

If anyone can think of anything else I might be missing, your input would be appreciated. Thanks again for all the replies, you guys are keeping me sane and focused at this point.

 

[11secDSM]

I bet something in or around the trans locked up. If you can't get the converter bolts out, you'll have to pull everything and pull the trans with the converter attached to the flexplate still.

FYI, best way to pull JUST the trans is with an engine hoist. There is a hook eyelet on top of the auto trans which is the balance point for the trans. SUPER easy to do it this way.

 

[5150DSM]

I bet something in or around the trans locked up. If you can't get the converter bolts out, you'll have to pull everything and pull the trans with the converter attached to the flexplate still.

FYI, best way to pull JUST the trans is with an engine hoist. There is a hook eyelet on top of the auto trans which is the balance point for the trans. SUPER easy to do it this way.

Thanks Chris. Yeah, I'm going to see if I can finagle the trans off the converter while it's still in the car. That way I can verify motor or trans before I start yanking shit out.

If it's the trans, I'm just going to send it off and suck up the cost. I obviously need more practice before I try and build a transmission for a high HP application or any application for that matter.

 

[94allwheeldsm]

Well good luck may want to drop the plate that connects the subframe to the k member. It has 5 bolts and will make it easier. If on converter bolt backed out i would say another one could have just as easily and be locking everything up. Hence the reason you can only spin in 10* either direction.

 

[biglady112]

I had the nut on the intermediate shaft back off a few years ago on a new engine and transmission build. It in turn allowed third gear to jam up and bring the motor to a screaching hault before the motor even had a chance to warm up. That was a difficult one for me as I thought the motor was a goner as well. Once I got the oil pan of and figured out it was not the motor I turned my attention to the transmission. As soon as that thing was removed from the car the motor spun like butter. Just like it did after final assembly. Another quick refresh and that thing went on to live a happy life.

Granted this was a manual transmission, but it did lock up at idle and cause my motor not to spin. Hopefully you get lucky as well.

 

[5150DSM]

Just working backwards from what I had apart I have a short checklist.
Could broken trans pump gears jam up the input shaft? Is there really any way to mis-install the front clutch basket... i/e in such a way that it jams up the input shaft? Could a torque converter jam up on the input preventing it from spinning? Things to check over the next day or so.

 

[91-GS]

You mentioned earlier that the noise comes from TC (torque converter) and that you have the inspection plate off. Have you tried looking/listening around there while someone is turning the engine?

I would think that if it was something inside the TC it would be more of a muffled clang since there is oil in the TC. Same goes for the tranny, especially since only things moving there (in my understanding) are the clutch packs. So unless a gear or something else is broken, i don't see how it could jam up. Even then the TC would have allowed the motor to turn, just won't let it rev up.

 

[11secDSM]

Just working backwards from what I had apart I have a short checklist.
Could broken trans pump gears jam up the input shaft? Is there really any way to mis-install the front clutch basket... i/e in such a way that it jams up the input shaft? Could a torque converter jam up on the input preventing it from spinning? Things to check over the next day or so.

Any of those scenarios are "possible", but the pump and converter are more unlikely. The converter's impeller and turbine are fluid coupled so short of something coming apart in there it can't really bind up. The trans pump is just a pair of gears with machined tolerances so it's a little more likely to bind than a TC but still not the usual suspect. The stack with front and rear clutch is more of a possibility than those. Either way, you'll have to pull the trans to see what's up. I assume you used either trans assembly lube or petroleum jelly when assembling the trans internals? 5 seconds run time is so quick for anything to self destruct so i'm assuming it's something mechanical (like a bolt backing out), especially since you can't turn the motor either way.


EDIT....

The motor will not spin by hand in either condition. I am not able to rotate the input shaft from either via the end-clutch drum or the crankshaft.

Re-read what you wrote. Basically you can't spin input shaft either from the end clutch side or all the way from the other side of the motor. With the TC being coupled by fluid alone, it sounds like it may be the culprit since it should not be coupling with the motor not spinning (trans pump not building fluid pressure). You should be able to spin either the motor or the input shaft currently even if something is locked up on one of the sides. Just thinking out loud for you...

 

[5150DSM]

Re-read what you wrote. Basically you can't spin input shaft either from the end clutch side or all the way from the other side of the motor. With the TC being coupled by fluid alone, it sounds like it may be the culprit since it should not be coupling with the motor not spinning (trans pump not building fluid pressure). You should be able to spin either the motor or the input shaft currently even if something is locked up on one of the sides. Just thinking out loud for you...

I had an issue with rotating the trans before it got mated to the motor. See here...

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/automatic-tranny/462290-should-trans-spin-hand.html

I was never able to get a definitive answer so I just went with what I had. Once the motor was mated up to the trans everything spun fine... right up to the point that the motor fired and ran.

Thanks for the insight. I was basically ignoring the converter because I don't really have any way to check it. I'm going to pull the assembly later on today and see what I have. Everything is half tore-down already so it should be cake to get all back out. I'll have more info tonight or tomorrow morning.

 

[ricktb]

If it were me,I'd just start tearing into the trans removal, and the first thing I'd do i try to turn the engine by hand after its off.. and when it turns over you'll know its def the trans and be somewhat relived... or horrified when it still binds. heh. I think I had my 420 manual trans off in about 6 hours, casually... 6 to go back on. The hardest part was the seized bolts and axel spindles. Never hammer on the axel i learned the hard way why not, at least put the bolt on the threads and hammer on that. Wish I had more helpful info. The torture of an unresolved issue, is worse than any amount of labor to get to the diagnosis.

ps did you put trans fluid in?

 

[5150DSM]

ps did you put trans fluid in?

Yep. Trans was full of ATF+4 and Lubeguard.

I'll pull the whole assembly tomorrow and get my answer.

 

[TwinT66]

Maybe when installing the converter it was not seated all the way and when you put it to the trans it broke the front pump and jammed it up.

Tony

 

[5150DSM]

I know you all have been eagerly anticipating an update...

I was just too busy with work during the week to get the motor out but I did go out this morning and yank that focker.

Turns out my flexplate bolts were not tight against the flexplate, they had bottomed out in the torque converter with the bolt heads flush against the plate. Being that I was installing the bolts through the inspection area, I failed to notice this and just thought I was achieving my torque spec. This, of course, was dead obvious once I got the tranny and engine separated...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

I'm not pointing any fingers because I absolutely should have checked myself but the info I got from Kiggly's site was dead wrong, unless I misunderstood it somehow. If I am wrong, then Kevin you have my apologies for even bringing this up but as I read it, I am supposed to be using an M10 x 1.5 x 16mm bolt. I did and the pictures above detail the result and yes, I am 100% positive that the bolts are M10 x 1.5 x 16mm.

Flexplate and Bolts

Did I miss something here?

So, the motor spins freely, I have no doubts that it is fine, as to the trans, I'm not so sure. The gear inside the torque converter rocks back and forth quite a bit and with the converter fully seated it will not spin. Unfortunately, I can't remember if these are normal conditions or not... my brain is so focking cooked right now, I barely know what day it is.

Anyway, questions... Should the gears in the converter be rocking around in the housing? Should I be able to spin the converter after it's fully seated? What about the pump... what are the chances the pump failed with 5 seconds of running with loose converter bolts? Does anybody know what length bolts I should be using... maybe the stockers? Am I missing anything else that I should be checking before I slap this beast back together?

As always, thank you guys for your time and any help you can offer... I am one frazzled DSM'r right now and need a little moral support.

 

[11secDSM]

Not sure why it says 16mm there...flexplate to crank bolts are about that length but converter bolts are around 11mm if I recall correctly. I would pull the trans pump and inspect the 2 gears inside there to see if they move freely. If not there, the issue could be in the converter or the stack behind the pump. You will hear the turbine inside the converter moving around, that is normal. Once seated (all 3 sets of splines), and throughout the seating process, the converter should still spin freely.

 

[black97spyder]

I went through the same thing but mine locked up as I was putting the bolts in the converter and rotating everything.

I had to end up cutting my starter spacer plate to make clearance for the stock converter bolt heads due to the larger (thicker) flexplate Kiggly makes... Check out my photos on my profile and you'll see a stock untouched starter spacer plate and then the one i cut out with a cut off wheel to make clearance for the bolts. The top center hole was where my problem was... After cutting the spacer plate I had no more clearance issues.

Hope this helps!!

 

[5150DSM]

Not sure why it says 16mm there...flexplate to crank bolts are about that length but converter bolts are around 11mm if I recall correctly. I would pull the trans pump and inspect the 2 gears inside there to see if they move freely. If not there, the issue could be in the converter or the stack behind the pump. You will hear the turbine inside the converter moving around, that is normal. Once seated (all 3 sets of splines), and throughout the seating process, the converter should still spin freely.

That's probably my mistake right there, makes sense, as I have about a 5mm gap. Thank for the info.

The converter spins free on the first two clicks but when it's fully engaged on the input it moves about 10* in either direction... which is about how far I able to turn the crank when everything was together. I doubt it's a coincidence.

black97spyder: I remember your thread, I hope I didn't fock you up with my misunderstanding of Kiggly's page. Ill take a look at the starter plate and see if there are any interference marks. Thanks for the tip.

I guess I'll tear into the front stack tomorrow and see what I can see.

 

[black97spyder]

Yeah you threw me a curveball for sure when I was experiencing that. When i talked to Kiggly he's the one who suggested to cut the inner part of the spacer plate instead of messing around with bolts and getting them the right length. If u end up having to cut your spacer plate make sure u keep the starter alignment hole as intact as possible and leave all the bolt holes as that is What aligns your trans bolts and everything up.

Wish your the best of luck and hope your converter didn't back out a spline and cause it to lock up on the trans pump.

If you have any questions feel free to pm me!

 

[11secDSM]

Not 100% sure, but I think the first two clicks are the snout going into the trans pump and the 3rd engages the splines in the converter to the stack. So it can still be the converter or the stack.

 

[5150DSM]

Well, it's the pump.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Damage isn't too extensive but it's enough. I'm guessing that the converter walked on the loose bolts and side loaded the inner gear on the pump, which in turn cracked it enough to seize. There is minimal damage to the housing and the outer gear, just some heat marks and a few scratches. The front stack spins freely with the pump out and the converter spins freely on the stack but if you introduce the pump everything locks up. I confirmed that it was the pump not just by visual inspection but also by engaging the converter with the pump and attempting to spin the assembly. With the pump engaged with the torque converter, the assembly moves about 10*... which again is about how far I was able to turn the crank when everything was together.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

So now that I am sure about the failure, the next step is to find a pump. These things seem to be fairly elusive as the only place I have seen them is DSMGraveyard; I really don't want to give them my business. So, does anyone know where I can get another pump? Preferably new, preferably OEM... but I'm flexible if I have to be. I've already checked all the vendor websites and nobody has one listed; unfortunately, I can't call any of them until Tuesday earliest.

Thanks a million to everyone who took the time to help me out on this one... it's been fun. Any links to pumps for sale would be much appreciated.

 

[11secDSM]

I know Mike at Sinister has a source for remans. Call a local trans shop...they have sources for remans as well. Mitsu has discontinued 1g pumps so you will not find a new one. Glad you figured it out!

 

[5150DSM]

I know Mike at Sinister has a source for remans. Call a local trans shop...they have sources for remans as well. Mitsu has discontinued 1g pumps so you will not find a new one. Glad you figured it out!

Fu(k. I had a feeling it would be something like that. I hate buying re-maned shit. But, more than that, I hate having my car down while I find a part. Now that I have the diagnosis all the anger is coming out... I have to spend a bunch of time trying to find one focking part, what a focking PITA. Plus, with the holiday, I have to wait until at least Tuesday to make an order, then it's a week to ship, then I gotta put it all back together. Fu(k.

 

[BLAKSUNSHINE]

I had the same thing happen to me with fidanza aluminum flywheel.I didnt check the bolt length and they bottomed out causing one to break during driving.The sound was horrible and thought i blew my motor for sure.Luckily everything was good in dsmville,and was able to replace the broken bolt with factory bolts.So atleast it wasnt your motor!

 

[11secDSM]

Fu(k. I had a feeling it would be something like that. I hate buying re-maned shit. But, more than that, I hate having my car down while I find a part. Now that I have the diagnosis all the anger is coming out... I have to spend a bunch of time trying to find one focking part, what a focking PITA. Plus, with the holiday, I have to wait until at least Tuesday to make an order, then it's a week to ship, then I gotta put it all back together. Fu(k.

Maybe you'll get lucky. Last time I looked for one, my local trans guy found a reman'd unit in stock 2 hours away. I had it the next day. Might as well check with your local parts stores. They may have a source as well. Parts stores should be open tomorrow.

Also, there's really nothing to worry about with reman'd trans pumps. There's only 2 moving parts, a few machined surfaces, and a bushing for the converter snout. It's pretty hard to #### one of them up.

 

[5150DSM]

I'm thinking about cleaning up the pump housing with emery cloth and just replacing the gears... I'm finding rebuild parts for the pump easier than the pump itself.

https://www.wittrans.com/showfilter.aspx?Category=734&Section=88&pagenum=2

Anyone ever use these guys?