DSMpartout 1g : 10.6 @ 128 auto swapped

[Nate Crisman]

This week was pretty insane for me in trying to complete the auto-awd swap and get my 1g ready to go to Island. Tons of loose ends, missing an auto specific engine mount bracket (Thanks muggus!), being sick, and lack of sleep, but I pulled through somehow. I had no idea if the trans was even good or how to set it up so I just kinda winged it.:Up_to_something:

I ended up having issues with my GVR4 streetcar this last couple weeks that were ecu related (it was randomly shutting off while driving). I use the same ECU/link in the yellow car and wouldn't you know it....the car wouldn't start this morning. So I trailer it not running to Island where Nelson (GizmoVR4) is waiting with his extra ECU. Swap my DSMlink chip into his ECU and I get the same problem. So it seems my DSMlink V3 chip has blown up or something. After Nelson blows his HG he then lends me his ecu/DSmlink V3 combo and my car starts right up.

The setup was the same as the last time out on the 5speed that went 10.72 @ 131.88. Same 38% methanol/62% E85 fuel mix, same 16g boost setting, same tune. The only things that really changed were the transmission (weight added too) and my cold air intake pipe didn't fit so I just ran open turbo.

Run 1:
11.156 @ 122.08 - 1.485 - surprisingly good for first attempt!

• Nitrous off. footbrake to about 25psi and let it go. rpm/boost was still climbing when I let off brake!:eek4:
• Was so surprised that it came out fast and smooth that I sat on rev limiter at 8000rpm in first.
• Botched the shift and went directly from L to D and missed 2nd gear. Shifted 1 to 3.
• Boost spiked to 33psi settled down to 22psi by 7000rpm.
• timing map is VERY steep. 9* of timing at the spike that ramps up to 26* at high rpm/low boost
• Wideband not working...flatline 7.4AF

Run 2:
10.959 @ 127.09 - 1.622

• I forgot to rev it up in neutral to capture max vacuum in brakes...it started creeping through light so I let it go early at about 3400rpm and only 17psi of boost.
• 35shot of nitrous activated at 50mph+ (2nd and 3rd gears) nitrous was off at 7500+rpm though
• Spraying seems to make the turbo hold about 2psi more boost along the curve...BONUS!
• Air temp 46*F at line way up to 108*F at traps.
• wideband working: AF kinda fluxuating all over in the 11's. Tune is sloppy for sure!

Run 3:
10.679 @ 128.62 - 1.542

• Got up to about 4300rpm and 30psi on the stock converter!
• Spun a bit and I lifted throttle in first
• bumped the nitrous jetting to .046/.033 with only 575psi of bottle pressure. Bleh:tear:
• with no Overdrive switch (ran out of instal time), I was running 3rd gear out to 7800+ rpm
• This stock engine/16G combo just isn't a screamer and nearly 8000rpm is WAY over-revving it.
• wideband back to dead. ?

Run 4:
10.626 @ 128.80 - 1.489

• Left at 4000rpm and about 25psi
• Ran first gear out to 8000....still not used to the delay in automatic shifting.
• with nitrous spraying, it will hold 25psi all through 3rd to 8000rpm.
• motor got way hot on this run...I think I pushed the HG. Coolant spraying from catch can.

So the automatic ended up being pretty much what I thought it was going to be: consistent and slightly quicker. I was really surprised at how well it launched on the stock converter without any nitrous at all. In hindsight, I probably should have moved the nitrous activation down into the middle of first gear to help the ET a bit more. But it doesn't at all need any spray on the line or immediately after launch since I was able to get past 4300rpm & 30psi and spin the tires on the 3rd run. Didn't have any issues pulling through the brakes either unless I forget to do a neutral rev to build vacuum.

Things I want to change over the winter:

• Get a ratcheting shifter or add some method of detent between L and 2 on the stock shifter. It's too easy to miss shift and go right to 3rd. Maybe just use switches instead of the lever?
• Setup DSMlink boost control. Use it to set launch boost level. (as is, it will go way to high!)
• upgrade the end clutch and setup switch to use overdrive. 8000rpm is stupid for a 16g car!
• swap to a 4 port nitrous kit, figure out a better method of bottle heater
• 1600cc or 2000cc injectors. Then change over to running 100% methanol
• Ditch weight like crazy. Likely ditch the intercooler all together (55-60lb alone)
• Would like to swap to larger cams and maybe build a higher compression bottom end

I'm very happy with the auto swap thus far. Going about a tenth quicker in ET with 3mph less is pretty sweet on about the same power level. I have no idea how much quicker the car would have run if I had the time to run the wiring for the overdrive switch to the stock button, but I know running a 16g car with small cams up at 8000rpm is just pointless. Maybe I'll see about doing a quicky fix on the headgasket and trying to get out one more time this year with a few things fixed?

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[jjrock5]

Great times. Congrats

 

[Phil1320]

Looks like it turned out really well. So, one-tenth drop in ET with a slight MPH loss. Whelp, point taken. ET is ET. Car looks great, and it did sound pretty damn good too. I'm impressed and it's neat to see that comparo within such a short time period.

10.62
- 9.97

= .65 >>> all you have left to cover to hit that number and a tad more to beat it.

Pretty awesome, and definitely great for the first time out with the A/T.

If you have the time to repair the head gasket, I say hell yeah, do it and take another shot at it before the track closes.

Good stuff Nate!

 

[Nate Crisman]

Looks like it turned out really well. So, one-tenth drop in ET with a slight MPH loss. Whelp, point taken. ET is ET. Car looks great, and it did sound pretty damn good too. I'm impressed and it's neat to see that comparo within such a short time period.

10.62
- 9.97

= .65 >>> all you have left to cover to hit that number and a tad more to beat it.

Pretty awesome, and definitely great for the first time out with the A/T.

If you have the time to repair the head gasket, I say hell yeah, do it and take another shot at it before the track closes.

Good stuff Nate!

Im pretty sure I can pull that .65 off now.

• Only on a 65shot of nitrous...bottle pressure was only in 500's! almost empty bottle.
• I only ran nitrous in two two gears from 50mph up.
• The car is heavy right now. I was running stock 20lb 1g wheels!
• The OD shift should pick up some ET/mph as well
• Im still going to try the 100%meth and ditch the ic for weight loss experiment
• 60' can still be improved with boost control and suspension tuning.

Basically, I still have plenty of tricks up my sleeve to pull more ET out of the car and most of it is just common sense stuff: less weight, more power, & managing traction.


Im tempted to see if I can just re-torque the head bolts and maybe give it another go if Im careful with keeping the car cool in staging lane and letting it completely cool down between passes. It has a mitsu metal 4layer hg, so I doubt it's actually burned through or blown out. the car still runs and idles, it just got VERY hot on the last run. I think in the 220's going down the track and it got way hot in the 240's on the return road. Maybe I can milk a few more passes out of it before tearing it down for winter.

 

[Phil1320]

Nice....I'm sure you'll be able to do it. Sounds like there's tons left in it. And now that Lucas confirmed OD is the way to fly, there's some more right there! Bet you're already trying to re-torque the head bolts so you can go out this weekend

 

[warp9]

Nice! Good luck next time out

 

[Nate Crisman]

So the plan is to now retorque the headstuds and make refilling the coolant system part of the every run pit work. Planning for Sat the 13th to try and cut off some ET. hoping for about 10.3

 

[GRAVEDIGGER]

So the plan is to now retorque the headstuds and make refilling the coolant system part of the every run pit work. Planning for Sat the 13th to try and cut off some ET. hoping for about 10.3

Run whatcha brung and hope ya brung enough. Good luck Nate

 

[GDNF2ET]

Nice runs Nate...How much does your car weigh now ?

 

[Nate Crisman]

Nice runs Nate...How much does your car weigh now ?

I honestly have no real #'s for weight since I didn't make it to Etown for the Mitsu vs wrx race in order to get on their scale. Maybe I can hit up the local junkyard to get a real # soon.

Prior to the automatic swap, I would guestimate the car was around 2750 with driver. I think the automatic trans has got to be a good 75lb heavier than the stick trans (stock awd 5sp trans is 145lb), as I can't honestly lift the automatic trans by myself. Add in 8+ quarts of ATF and the cooler. Plus last week I ran on oem 1g swirl wheels that are 20.1lb each on my scale. (bought rota's but they were at sandblasting place getting horrendous neon green paint off)

Im going to take a guess and say the car is ~2850 total weight. could be off by 50lb either way though.

 

[Phil1320]

So the plan is to now retorque the headstuds and make refilling the coolant system part of the every run pit work. Planning for Sat the 13th to try and cut off some ET. hoping for about 10.3

Sweet! That would be a good number to end the year on....

BTW...great 1/8 mile at 6.83!

Joe B. was 6.50@108 on his 9.97 pass.....so you are already in touch to half track.

He also went 10.38@136 on the small 16g with a 30 shot, so maybe you can hit or better that number......

 

[Nate Crisman]

At this point, I have to make significantly more power than Joe B to equal his times since I'm guessing my current weight is like 600+ lb disadvantage to his manual-fwd.

This morning I got the car fired on on some straight e85 to "pickle" the system. Btw. Even a 38% mix of methanol in the fuel system seems to cause leaks everywhere if left in overnight. I had 3 leaks this morning to fix.

Got the motor warmed up and put some anti-freeze in the radiator and intercooler (got down to 29* last night). Completely warmed it up and it idled for 10+ min without overheating. Did compression test:
1: 155
2: 145
3: 150
4: 150

Pulled valve cover and torque wrench was clicking at 110ft-lb. So I didn't budge any of the head studs. Seems like motor should be ok to make a few more passes. Just have aft leaks at axle seal and xcase output shaft seal....will fix over winter, it's not that bad.

Im confident I can pull that .65 now, maybe not in 2010, but next season definitely. Once I do that: 14b goes back on for some glory passes.

 

[Phil1320]

At this point, I have to make significantly more power than Joe B to equal his times since I'm guessing my current weight is like 600+ lb disadvantage to his manual-fwd.

This morning I got the car fired on on some straight e85 to "pickle" the system. Btw. Even a 38% mix of methanol in the fuel system seems to cause leaks everywhere if left in overnight. I had 3 leaks this morning to fix.

Got the motor warmed up and put some anti-freeze in the radiator and intercooler (got down to 29* last night). Completely warmed it up and it idled for 10+ min without overheating. Did compression test:
1: 155
2: 145
3: 150
4: 150

Pulled valve cover and torque wrench was clicking at 110ft-lb. So I didn't budge any of the head studs. Seems like motor should be ok to make a few more passes. Just have aft leaks at axle seal and xcase output shaft seal....will fix over winter, it's not that bad.

Im confident I can pull that .65 now, maybe not in 2010, but next season definitely. Once I do that: 14b goes back on for some glory passes.

Yeah, and 600 lbs. is alot. Comp looks ok....last time I did mine which was a long time ago it was 150-148-155-160.

Sounds cool, hope it all goes your way.

 

[Nate Crisman]

on a side note, I finally found an online nitrous jetting calculator that takes bottle pressure into account:
Daytona Sensors LLC - Tech FAQ Nitrous Oxide Injection
(I don't know why all the other calculators are messed up and ignore bottle pressure)

anyway.
The second run with .037/.022 N/F jets @600psi bottle pressure is about 44hp worth of nitrous
The third and fourth run with .046/.033 jets @ 600psi is right about 70hp of nitrous. The car went from 127.1mph to 128.8mph for a 1.7mph gain. That seems to equate pretty well:
24hp = 1.7mph

simple math says:
going from 600psi bottle pressure to 1000psi bottle pressure makes that .046 nitrous jet jump from 70hp to 90hp. with that 1.7mph/26hp ratio:
The bottle heater and a fresh bottle fill should be worth ~1.31mph bringing it to 130.1mph
.049 nitrous jet @ 1000psi yealds 102hp. That should pick up .79mph to go almost 130.9
.052 nitrous jet is 115hp and should run 131.4mph
.055 nitrous jet is 130hp and should run 132.7mph (which should be good for a 10.30 ET with the same launch/weight)

That's also assuming activating the nitrous at the same time only in top 2 gears. Turning it on earlier obviously improves that mph gain per hp ratio a tick. So I'm saying I'v got the potential to pump up 4+mph next time just by getting the bottle filled and going up in jets that I have on hand. That's encouraging!

 

[habitatguy187]

Nice math benchracer


Seriously though, I wouldn't be surprised if you pick up more than what you're expecting from filling up the bottle. Everything I've read about nitrous on FI cars says there's much more of a gain to be expected than on NA cars. Either way I'm excited to see results, and I love how you're testing and experimenting to help the community.

 

[Phil1320]

Pretty cool Nate. I don't know much about NOS but I seem to remember many guys getting the bottle to 900psi for optimum use.

I would think that the larger the turbo the more to be gained from any NOS shot. I seem to remember a certain FWD 60-1 car putting 444 HP to the wheels and with a "50 shot" laying down 569 WHP.........

....anyway, it will be interesting to see what happens. You heading out to the track this weekend?

 

[Nate Crisman]

Ok, I have a theory about nitrous & turbo from my past experiences with it (been around that block a few times). It's a bit of a convoluted dissertation, but please bear with me. I think any shot of nitrous, regardless of size has somewhat of an exponential effect on a turbo car. BUT I feel that effect is somewhat of a set amount that does not multiply with large amounts of nitrous. Let me give an example:

my car went 11.1 @ 122.0 on the motor alone without nitrous.
The addition of ~44hp of nitrous made the car jump a full 5mph up to 127.0mph!
Then the addition of another 26hp worth of nitrous only picked up 1.7mph

5mph/44hp = .11 *every 1hp is worth .11mph
1.7mph/26hp = .06 *each 1hp worth only.06mph

My explaination for this is that even the smallest nitrous hit, say a wimpy 25shot, will give a cooling effect to the charge. And adding more and more nitrous doesn't keep cooling it more. In the same way that sitting in a bathtub full of 32*F icewater.....if you keep dumping in more bags of ice....the water still stays 32*F.

The other side is that spraying nitrous into a turbo car seems to help spool the turbo quicker and spike it harder. In my case, the E3 16g was only holding 22psi on the "no nitrous" run but was holding 25psi with the nitrous on. You can see on the Run #2 when the nitrous shut off at 7500rpm in 3rd gear (dsmlink control) the boost immediatly dropped from 25 to 22.

But those 2 affects don't seem to happen in greater magnitude when you go from say a 50shot of nitrous to a 75shot of nitrous. In that situation, you seem to only gain the expect 25hp from the additional oxygen and that's it. No "extra spool" no "more boost" and the same "intake cooling" as the smaller hit of nitrous. We don't seem to multiplly those side effects of nitrous by adding more spray.

That's why when I did my math in the above post...I compared the mph change between two nitrous runs with different jetting in order to get a conservative ratio of nitrous added to mph.

There is also another factor to consider when going to larger and larger nitrous jets in that the 7cm turbine housing is going to start to choke, exhaust pressure is going to skyrocket. I believe the extra 2-3psi of boost pressure is due to this. If the wastegate door is already being blown open by exhaust pressure with nitrous (I suspect it is), maybe the extra 70hp worth of exhaust mass is now simply overwhelming the wastegate passage and driving the turbine?

At some point the exhaust back pressure becomes prohibitive to making more power and we see a diminishing return on adding more and more nitrous. IE...if I decided to throw a 300shot on top of the existing setup, I sure wouldn't expect to actually see 25-30mph out of it as there is no way 800hp of exhaust is going to squeeze through a stock turbine housing!


Anyway....I hope that was understandable. I don't expect to see huge gains going up in jet sizes or increasing the bottle pressure from 600 to 900-1000psi. At least I don't expect to see any more than that ratio of .06mph per 1hp and even that will start to be a sliding slope at some point. My previous experience is that somewhere around 100hp nitrous hit will be the start of this diminishing return due to exhaust restriction. I suspect the car would put about 400whp down now?

Pretty cool Nate. I don't know much about NOS but I seem to remember many guys getting the bottle to 900psi for optimum use.

I would think that the larger the turbo the more to be gained from any NOS shot. I seem to remember a certain FWD 60-1 car putting 444 HP to the wheels and with a "50 shot" laying down 569 WHP.........

....anyway, it will be interesting to see what happens. You heading out to the track this weekend?

Phil...bottle pressure is proportional to flow. I could make the same power with 600psi of bottle pressure as I can with 900 or 1000. It just takes a larger jet size. All that matter is what the mass flow of nitrous is. Kinda the same way you can run 20psi on a 14b or 16psi on a 20g and come out with the same airflow number. It's very simple fluid dymanics math on the jetting/bottle pressure. (granted, I just use an online calculator because I'm far to long out of engineering school to do it by hand)

a 50shot doing 125whp increase well, I suppose anything is possible. I bet that car had a really crappy intercooler setup on top of a slow spool issue in which the nitrous added 75hp worth of "side effects"

I'm heading out to Baltimore, MD tonight at midnight to get on an airplane and fly to Orlando, FL. Wife and I have a few days off work and we decided on a spur of the moment trip with the kids. We got some real good deals on plane tickets and hotel online and decided to get away from the stress* for a couple days.

*Im in middle of buying a house and 2 days before closing and moving in, this forclosure BS with the large banks happened. ripped the rug right out from under us. Our household is all packed up into a trailer, we are living out of suitcases, and the selling bank now can't close on the house until Chase Manhattan goes back to check the documents from when they forclosed on the last owner. So we are in limbo waiting for the selling bank to get the title insurance cleared up so we can close and move. Wife is a basket case because of this and we're living with inlaws right now.


Anyway....plan is to get back to NJ on monday the 8th afternoon, crank away on the little fixes next week in order to hit the track on Sat the 13th. Don't know how much I can pull off of that .65 ET needed for the record, but Im going to try and do it.

Nice math benchracer


Seriously though, I wouldn't be surprised if you pick up more than what you're expecting from filling up the bottle. Everything I've read about nitrous on FI cars says there's much more of a gain to be expected than on NA cars. Either way I'm excited to see results, and I love how you're testing and experimenting to help the community.

If it were only so that I were honestly that altruistic in experimenting and testing stuff to help the community. In realitiy, this is completely self serving glory hounding .

And yeah, Im about the biggest bench racer you'll find. I spend lots of time on the internet researching and trying to figure out my next move as well as guestimate the results prior to actually doing it. I find that helps me to make proper choices at the track when I already have a model in my mind of what the car "should" be doing.

 

[forcefed86]

Sweet runs!

So it seems there is no magic involved. The auto's just plain run! Man I'm tired of trying to convince everyone. Owning a 5spd myself I hear the bench racing bit quite a bit too!

Obviously guys are having better luck switching into OD than trying to run out 3rd to bejesus. It seems people are leaving a lot on the table not running as tall of a tire as possible. If you could get some larger cams to take advantage of the upper rpms and leave it in 3rd you’d be ahead of the game IMO. The taller gears will allow you to come out of the hole harder and load up each gear more. I haven’t taken the time to measure the wheel wells but I’d guess you could run a 15x6 weld wheel and you’d have a lot of height options.

I went through this same scenario with my RX-7/grand national swap. The limited gearing available for the Rx-7 rear ends left me with a 4.10 final gear and a motor that redlines at 5500. I did run OD for a couple years until I could afford a rear end swap. It made all the difference in the world. Started with 3.73’s, 3.27,3.08’s and stopping at a 2.73 final gear. I kept lowering the gearing and the MPH just kept climbing. The 27” tall tire helped my launch as well.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Sweet runs!

So it seems there is no magic involved. The auto's just plain run! Man I'm tired of trying to convince everyone. Owning a 5spd myself I hear the bench racing bit quite a bit too!

Obviously guys are having better luck switching into OD than trying to run out 3rd to bejesus. It seems people are leaving a lot on the table not running as tall of a tire as possible. If you could get some larger cams to take advantage of the upper rpms and leave it in 3rd you'd be ahead of the game IMO. The taller gears will allow you to come out of the hole harder and load up each gear more. I haven't taken the time to measure the wheel wells but I'd guess you could run a 15x6 weld wheel and you'd have a lot of height options.

I went through this same scenario with my RX-7/grand national swap. The limited gearing available for the Rx-7 rear ends left me with a 4.10 final gear and a motor that redlines at 5500. I did run OD for a couple years until I could afford a rear end swap. It made all the difference in the world. Started with 3.73's, 3.27,3.08's and stopping at a 2.73 final gear. I kept lowering the gearing and the MPH just kept climbing. The 27" tall tire helped my launch as well.

One of my mustang buddies is telling me that there is a huge variety of tires around the range of 26 to28" tall that are 8.5" wide and 15" wheel. I guess a 28x8.5x15 is the "standard" slick size for mustangs, so they are plentifull and cheap. And going down to a 15" wheel saves more weight than the extra sidewall rubber of the taller slick adds. The rear of the car can easily fit a taller tire than the 26" hoosier with the ground effects off. The front tires though, touch the inside of the frame already. I would bet with a 28" tall slick we would have contact between the tire and front bumper cover unless the cover was cut back for clearance.

I think Im going to have to end up running bigger cams rather than trying to go nuts lowering rpm with gearing. Especially since I don't plan to stay at 130mph...I'd ideally like the car to go right about 135-140mph and a mid 9. Obviously Im not doing that without some serious rpm as even with OD and the tall tires...what I gain in gearing will go away with 10mph more speed.

 

[forcefed86]

One of my mustang buddies is telling me that there is a huge variety of tires around the range of 26 to28" tall that are 8.5" wide and 15" wheel. I guess a 28x8.5x15 is the "standard" slick size for mustangs, so they are plentifull and cheap. And going down to a 15" wheel saves more weight than the extra sidewall rubber of the taller slick adds. The rear of the car can easily fit a taller tire than the 26" hoosier with the ground effects off. The front tires though, touch the inside of the frame already. I would bet with a 28" tall slick we would have contact between the tire and front bumper cover unless the cover was cut back for clearance.

I think Im going to have to end up running bigger cams rather than trying to go nuts lowering rpm with gearing. Especially since I don't plan to stay at 130mph...I'd ideally like the car to go right about 135-140mph and a mid 9. Obviously Im not doing that without some serious rpm as even with OD and the tall tires...what I gain in gearing will go away with 10mph more speed.

Here is a great little gear calculator.
http://www.f-body.org/gears/

Just ploping in the numbers quickly going from a STD 245-50-16 to a 245-60-16 you net about a 10mph gain at 7500rpm.

The converter must be slipping quite a bit up top unless I got my ratios incorrect?

 

[Nate Crisman]

wow, fairly big jump from 3rd gear of 1.000 to the OD/4th gear of .685! maybe I won't really need a bigger tire?

Will see what happens in 2 weeks with the gearing/rpm situation. It's quite hard to judge with the converter slippage unlike a stick trans car that can be fairly accurate with gearing/rpm calculations.

 

[907dsm]

Why the change from ds-map to link??

 

[Nate Crisman]

Why the change from ds-map to link??

In a nutshell: 100X better datalogging on a real laptop and functional aux outputs for controlling my nitrous setup.

When I got out of DS-Map in the early spring of 2010, there was no progress on nitrous controls, rpm/speed based boost control and you still had to datalog via serial port on a palm pilot at slow sample rate. DSMlink working correctly on mac osx was also a major plus for me, as I don't own windows computers and had to borrow a laptop to go to the track with DS-Map since it wasn't really compatible due to an ostrich usb driver issue with osx.

It didn't hurt that I was able to trade used parts in the deal to get the dsmlink chip and then sell off my ostrich and palm stuff to break even.

 

[forcefed86]

wow, fairly big jump from 3rd gear of 1.000 to the OD/4th gear of .685! maybe I won't really need a bigger tire?

Will see what happens in 2 weeks with the gearing/rpm situation. It's quite hard to judge with the converter slippage unlike a stick trans car that can be fairly accurate with gearing/rpm calculations.

IMO that's why bigger tires are better the ratio between 3rd and OD is to high. Almost like skipping a gear completely. Not to mention it puts alot of strain on parts and will load/bog the motor down. Also increases the chances of detonation. Obviously it works but it's a crutch IMHO. A crutch I abused the the hell out of!

Slippage isn't going to change much with a tire change. So while you gear calculators target max speed may be off, the ratio of gain should be close.

Either way it sounds like a fun/cheap setup! Keep up posted!

 

[beansblacktsi]

What are the specs on the tires? Have any clearance issues at all? And Badass car man!