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Dsmpartout 1G: Chemistry night at island Dragway

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Nate Crisman

10+ Year Contributor
749
6
Nov 26, 2008
Blairstown, New_Jersey
Tomorrow plan at island Dragway: work up to .052 nitrous jet for 125 shot and start transitioning to Methanol fuel. I will mix in with e85 starting with 25% and mix in more and more Methanol each run until we run out of delivery capacity.


This car will be eating methanol, ethanol, gasoline, nitrous oxide, and pressurized turbo air. Getting to need to have a damn chemistry degree to tune this thing.


Any tips, suggestions, comments, or advise?

Here's what I have figured out from lots of google searching:

Best power Lambda range for each fuel:
Gasoline: .83 to .86 (AFR gasoline scale: 12.2 to 12.5)
E85:....... .76 to .82 (AFR on gas scale: 11.2 to 12.2)
Methanol: .50 to .62 (AFR on gas scale: 7.4 to 9.2)

Seems that methanol likes to run pretty stupid rich, while E85 will run well just a little bit richer than gasoline. So Im guessing that my ideal target AFR reading from the innovate wideband will be different at each ratio of E85/methanol. On a side note, Iv read about how most of the LSU wideband sensors aren't even in the ballpark in the .5 to .6 lambda range so the "tuning" on methanol is likely not even within the range of the sensor.


of E85/Meth mixture ratio:
on a 75/25 mix I should target about 11.5 AFR (gas scale wideband)
on a 50/50 mix: ~10.8 AFR
on a 25/75 mix: ~10.0 AFR
100% meth:.... ~8 to 9 AFR


Am I being stupid here?:rtfm:
 
Will your ignition be able to lite off a mix that rich?
Be careful and keep track of the changes, you're juggling many variables.
Good luck out there!
 
Will your ignition be able to lite off a mix that rich?
Be careful and keep track of the changes, you're juggling many variables.
Good luck out there!

Yeah, that was a worry of mine as well. Im going to bring a set of hotter BRP6ES plugs with me, but realistically, I think Ill only be running between 25% and 50% methanol tonight simply due to time. If Im lucky I'll get 6 runs in and I going to try and only make one change at a time either on the nitrous side or fuel mix side.

Will see what happens, I'll have a full track report either tonight or tomorrow regardless of good or bad news.:pray:
 
Sounds good. I'm happy that the off season is here since the nearest track has Test-N-Tune sessions on Saturday now. Even if you don't get enough runs, I'm sure you'll come back with good info and a plan for the next trip out.
 
tonight was certainly not what I was hoping for, but it was still a good night overall. First off, Nelson's assortment of nitrous jets were NX brand, which apparently do not fit inside an NOS brand fogger. So I was limited to the same .037/.022 "50shot" jets as the last time I ran the car. I did bring a bottle warmer and kept the bottle between 900 and 1000psi. Since I couldn't increase the nitrous hit, we went right to mixing meth/E85:

11.150 @ 128.37 - 1.723 ([email protected])
  • just rolling it out for an easy run
  • 12% methanol & 88% E85 in the fuel cell
  • same tune as my last run on 9/10
  • About 82% duty cycle for an AF of 11.9 (gasoline scale)
  • Boost spike to 31psi falling to about 24psi
  • Timing at 11* during the spike ramping up to 19*
  • Little blips of knock sensor activity in 4th gear..pulling 1.1* to .4*

10.791 @ 130.12 - 1.601 ([email protected])
  • left at no boost on 5000rpm 2step at part throttle
  • Tires broke loose midway through first gear and felt loose right after 1-2 shift. 15psi tire pressure
  • 25% methanol/75% E85 Added 7% to fuel sliders from 4500-8000
  • 88% duty cycle for a 11.7 to 11.8 AF
  • Timing advanced 2* from prev run.
  • knock sensor is dead quiet the whole run
  • AIT of 52*F on line up to 100*F at traps

11.131 @ 129.73 - 1.728 ([email protected])
  • spun hardcore in first, had to let off and early 1-2 shift
  • 38% met / 62% E85. Fuel sliders at +10%
  • 90% duty cycle for AF of about 12.0 (too lean..should have been about 11.0 at leanest)
  • Timing from 12* to 23*...up another degree from previous run
  • DSMlink showing ~450hp in 3rd gear.
  • no knock. I put 1/2 turn on boost controller. Spike is to 33psi and falling to 24.5psi not much diff.

10.721 @ 131.88 - 1.699 (6.993 @ 103.52)
  • Tire spin through first gear but I stayed in it, odd rpm/clutch in 2nd...maybe a little tire shake/hop.
  • Tires are down to 12psi, but the track is just not sticky tonight.
  • Fuel sliders up to 15%. Same 38/62 mix since we figured were out of injector.
  • 94% injector duty got us about a 11.5 AF (still too lean...we should have bumped fuel pressure too)
  • 1* more timing advance
  • DSMlink 480hp falling to about 435hp at 7500rpm

16.XXX @ 62mph - 1.79X
Went up in smoke in first gear causing me to totally miss the 1-2 shift. Aborted the run. Notice coolant temp is 240*F on the return road after just cruising in 3rd down the track, so I don't have time to make another attempt after cooling it off. I'm also out of ice for the IC (5 bags gone)


So I was able to knock off about 1 tenth and add 2mph on a night with pretty bad traction. With a 1.5 launch the car should go in the 10.5 range as it sits with the 16g pretty much maxed out & 50shot of spray. As for the methanol experiment, it wasn't really a huge gain that I was hoping for. I'm still undecided if Im going to keep running it in a mix with E85 or not. (it did seem to run very clean with regard to knock sensor) Maybe it will be more advantageous once I pick up larger nitrous jets or find a way to make the 16g hold more boost?
 
T
\
Seems that methanol likes to run pretty stupid rich, while E85 will run well just a little bit richer than gasoline. So Im guessing that my ideal target AFR reading from the innovate wideband will be different at each ratio of E85/methanol. On a side note, Iv read about how most of the LSU wideband sensors aren't even in the ballpark in the .5 to .6 lambda range so the "tuning" on methanol is likely not even within the range of the sensor.


of E85/Meth mixture ratio:
on a 75/25 mix I should target about 11.5 AFR (gas scale wideband)
on a 50/50 mix: ~10.8 AFR
on a 25/75 mix: ~10.0 AFR
100% meth:.... ~8 to 9 AFR


Am I being stupid here?:rtfm:

Ehh Its not that Methanol wants to run stupid rich, your just comparing the AFR's directly. I bet that if you were to compare them in terms of lambda, or gasoline AFR's you'd find that methanol and ethanol actually run much leaner (closer to stoich) than Gasoline.

Also your Targets above are all wrong. On a gas scale wideband, it will stay around 12:1. Rework your math in lambda, then convert back to gasoline scale and you'll see.

I have noticed that anything richer than 12:1 (on a gasoline scale) with E85 causes massive missfires/rich knock. I suspect Methanol will be similar. It also will want more timing than usual.


I read somwhere on the interwebz, that Methanol and Ethanol both behave pretty similarly as a motor fuel. The biggest differences are the amount required at stoic, the octane, and the corosivity.
 
Ehh Its not that Methanol wants to run stupid rich, your just comparing the AFR's directly. I bet that if you were to compare them in terms of lambda, or gasoline AFR's you'd find that methanol and ethanol actually run much leaner (closer to stoich) than Gasoline.

Also your Targets above are all wrong. On a gas scale wideband, it will stay around 12:1. Rework your math in lambda, then convert back to gasoline scale and you'll see.

I have noticed that anything richer than 12:1 (on a gasoline scale) with E85 causes massive missfires/rich knock. I suspect Methanol will be similar. It also will want more timing than usual.


I read somwhere on the interwebz, that Methanol and Ethanol both behave pretty similarly as a motor fuel. The biggest differences are the amount required at stoic, the octane, and the corosivity.



this is info I have gathered from what must have been around 10 different sources of people actually running methanol dragsters:

Best power Lambda range for each fuel:
Gasoline: .83 to .86 (AFR gasoline scale: 12.2 to 12.5)
E85:....... .76 to .82 (AFR on gas scale: 11.2 to 12.2)
Methanol: .50 to .62 (AFR on gas scale: 7.4 to 9.2)

E85 will make it's best power slightly richer than Gasoline. But methanol wants a significantly richer mixture. It has nothing to do with lambda to AFR conversion or the scale of the wideband. Nearly every source I'v found is saying Gas lambda in the .8 range and Methanol lambda is in the .6 range.
 
There's more to it than just AF ratio for best power. Alcohol fuels like heat. Best AFR with an ice cooled intercooler may not be the same as the best AFR with a hotpipe.
 
this is info I have gathered from what must have been around 10 different sources of people actually running methanol dragsters:



E85 will make it's best power slightly richer than Gasoline. But methanol wants a significantly richer mixture. It has nothing to do with lambda to AFR conversion or the scale of the wideband. Nearly every source I'v found is saying Gas lambda in the .8 range and Methanol lambda is in the .6 range.


No as the guy above you stated, e85 is usually tuned leaner than gas (12.1-12.3 area). 11.2 is just not gonna make any power
 
No as the guy above you stated, e85 is usually tuned leaner than gas (12.1-12.3 area). 11.2 is just not gonna make any power

That's pretty much opposite of what I believe, and what I have read from many DSMer's who have converted that start the tune on E85 on the rich side (10-11 gasoline AF). Seems that leaning out E85 doesn't really produce any huge power gain, even while the car runs knock free. People even report being able to lean the mix past peak power and still not see significant knock sensor activity. I know both my GVR4 and my Talon didn't make any huge power gain by leaning out from 11's to 12's.

To each his own. This last time running 38% methanol and 62% E85 when the (gasoline scale) AFR was in the 11.5 range with the injectors maxed out. Next time at the track, Im going to hammed down on fuel pressure and fuel jet and maybe run a 50/50 mix. I'll let you know how slow it goes since it's "not going to make any power" with the AFR int he 10's;)


Let me rephrase: (this takes all considerations about lambda to AFR calculations, stoic values, and wideband gauge display conversions out of the loop)

My sources are saying:
Best power Lambda range for each fuel:
Gasoline: .83 to .86
E85:....... .76 to .82
Methanol: .50 to .62

Are you guys suggesting that THIS info is wrong and that E85 and Methanol should be tuned to .83 to .86 lambda?
 
Last edited:
I'm saying that your sources are most likely correct, but you have to find the best conditions to make it work. Like I said above, "(The) Best AFR with an ice cooled intercooler may not be the same as the best AFR with a hotpipe." especially since alcohol fuels like heat.

Since you're running this chemistry experiment, you'll have to try different things and find out what works best.

Here's a radical idea- throw away the ice chest and run the coolant lines from the heater core into the intercooler, add more meth, drop the AF ratio down so it's nice and rich, just like your sources are recommending, and work on the timing and other aspects of the tune from there. Forget the knock sensor, tune conservatively and look at mph to see if any tuning changes helped or hurt.
 
I'm saying that your sources are most likely correct, but you have to find the best conditions to make it work. Like I said above, "(The) Best AFR with an ice cooled intercooler may not be the same as the best AFR with a hotpipe." especially since alcohol fuels like heat.

Since you're running this chemistry experiment, you'll have to try different things and find out what works best.

Here's a radical idea- throw away the ice chest and run the coolant lines from the heater core into the intercooler, add more meth, drop the AF ratio down so it's nice and rich, just like your sources are recommending, and work on the timing and other aspects of the tune from there. Forget the knock sensor, tune conservatively and look at mph to see if any tuning changes helped or hurt.

That in a nutshell, is one of my biggest questions in regard to alky fuels and intercooling: Is an air/water intercooler bringing the AIT down to between 50*F and 100*F counter-productive with alky fuel due to not being able to vaporize all the methanol? I'm honestly not sure if it would make better power either way as this is my first foray into methanol and I haven't been working with E85 for that long either.

I did have one of the guys with me at the track, JChandler, who has methanol experience crewing for a methanol 4G63 dragster. His opinion was that we were running the car way to lean at 38% methanol and the evidence was seeing the coolant temp go UP during a pass. On my last run we went from 200*F at the line to 240*F on the return road! His experience is that the engine temp should go DOWN during a pass on methanol. Granted, I believe he said they use a half filled block though. Next time out Im planning to keep the meth mixture consistent and keep adding fuel and more nitrous to see what happens. Maybe I'll try making one pass with the intercooler replaced with a 3" section of pipe to see how that affects things.

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Ehh my earlier post was wrong...I wasn't reading/thinking correctly. Also I have minimal experience with meth.

I've never really tuned my car with a wideband. I have always used the stock NB and feel. But I can tell you, that when I switch from gas to E85, I set my Injector compensation 30% small, and then I have to lean out the fuel map to 11.5:1(on a gas scale) or leaner. If I leave it richer the car just has crazy knock and spits and sputters. I'm also relatively certain, that my tune leaves less than 2-3% power to be had.

Now some cars might benefit from richer ethanol afr's, but they might have hotter ignitions, and probably not as much cylinder pressure as a 500hp dsm.

Also, nothing turbocharged runs max power at 12:1 on gasoline. Gasoline is almost always much richer 10.75 - 11.5 (to keep it out of detonation), therefore we see things like 11.5:1 on up as being pretty lean.
 
Ehh my earlier post was wrong...I wasn't reading/thinking correctly. Also I have minimal experience with meth.

I've never really tuned my car with a wideband. I have always used the stock NB and feel. But I can tell you, that when I switch from gas to E85, I set my Injector compensation 30% small, and then I have to lean out the fuel map to 11.5:1(on a gas scale) or leaner. If I leave it richer the car just has crazy knock and spits and sputters. I'm also relatively certain, that my tune leaves less than 2-3% power to be had.

Now some cars might benefit from richer ethanol afr's, but they might have hotter ignitions, and probably not as much cylinder pressure as a 500hp dsm.

Also, nothing turbocharged runs max power at 12:1 on gasoline. Gasoline is almost always much richer 10.75 - 11.5 (to keep it out of detonation), therefore we see things like 11.5:1 on up as being pretty lean.

:rolleyes: Ask anyone who runs C16 or VP import on a big power DSM if they make better power in the 10.75* to 11.0* range compared to running high 12's. When running very high octane race gasoline, even turbocharged cars generally don't need to flood a cyl with an overly rich mixture "to keep it out of detonation". 11.5 is not even remotely lean for racegas.

If your tuning E85 and getting sputtering and knock at anything richer than 11.5*, then there is some other issue with your car/setup/tune. My everyday streetcar GVR4 will run 115-116mph traps on E85 regardless of air/fuel ratio* anywhere in the range you consider too rich to make any power. 10.0's to 12.0's, it ran right about 115mph. In my direct experience, E85 will make pretty much the same power across a broad range of air/fuel mix well richer than 12.0* & no issues with E85 missfiring or knocking.


So how exactly do you know the difference between 12.0AFR and 11.5AFR on your car if you are tuning with a narrowband sensor and your butt dyno:hmm: I assume you can show us dyno plots with AFR readings or back to back timesliips/logs to prove this:
I'm also relatively certain, that my tune leaves less than 2-3% power to be had.

* = Gasolline scale AFR display:banghead:
 
Sounds like you need to spend some time on the dyno to figure this all out.

Time on a dyno would be pretty sweet, but unfortunately, I have a pretty horrendous track record of mechanical failures on those rollers over the years. Frankly, Im pretty scared of the dyno!:shhh:
 
Time on a dyno would be pretty sweet, but unfortunately, I have a pretty horrendous track record of mechanical failures on those rollers over the years. Frankly, Im pretty scared of the dyno!:shhh:

It's the easiest way to set a solid baseline though. Sure you'll make adjustments at the track and such, but, you can do it without having to make a 1/4 pass and risk anything.
 
Nice runs Nate. I've always thought a 16g with spray would be a bad ass setup.

Ehh my earlier post was wrong...I wasn't reading/thinking correctly. Also I have minimal experience with meth.

I've never really tuned my car with a wideband. I have always used the stock NB and feel. But I can tell you, that when I switch from gas to E85, I set my Injector compensation 30% small, and then I have to lean out the fuel map to 11.5:1(on a gas scale) or leaner. If I leave it richer the car just has crazy knock and spits and sputters.

I'm 99% positive the issues you mentioned above are related to your plug gap if your ignition components are in good working order. I had the same issues the first couple weeks I was running e85. Installed a new set of bpr6es's, set the gap at .020 and I haven't had any miss fires for months. That is running at around 11.2 - 11.4 afr on the gas scale. I've even seen as rich as 10.6 while doing some tuning, still with no sputtering.
 
Where do you get the E85 infos??

here in germany a university racing team tested their car and it produced maximum power @ Lambda 0.88 maxium fuel effecieny @ 1.05!

and also Wikipedia says:
E85 max power rich 0.7143
E85 max power lean 0.8673

So I would defently aim for 0.87!

btw. there is also some english text:
http://www.amzracing.ch/amz/files/amz1384.pdf
 
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