DSMpartout 1G 16G Auto : 10.6 blown up half track

[Nate Crisman]

Made one single pass today, last day of the season. Unfortunately the HG that last week was only pushing a little coolant became a complete blowout today.

It went 10.673 @ 105.71 letting off at about 800ft and getting on the brakes at about 1000ft.

Launch was a 1.582. About a tenth slower than last time out due to leaving at only 20psi (first "guess" setting at DSMlink boost control on the line)

The 1/8mile was my best so far: 6.719 @ 106.67mph. Im going to guestimate that the car would have gone about 10.35 or so had the hg held for a whole pass.

Time to start winter mods for 2011: full cage, 9 sec equipment, another motor, ditching weight everywhere, aero and alignment mods, major fuel system mods for 100% meth, some engine & power mods, and a larger nitrous setup.


YouTube - DSMpartout 16G 1G Auto - 10.67 blown up half track

 

[Phil1320]

Damn Nate....sorry bud...


....but holy s##t the car rips.......



....honest to goodness off the throttle way early to 10.6 is silly.


Strong 1/8 mile man, even with the 1.58. That might have been more like a 10.1 pass Nate. One pass and you still set personal bests!

Well then...on to 2011

 

[danl]

Headgaskets can usually be avoided. How are you tuning timing? How old are the plugs and can you snap a picture of the ground strap from the side of each?

 

[Nate Crisman]

Headgaskets can usually be avoided. How are you tuning timing? How old are the plugs and can you snap a picture of the ground strap from the side of each?

To be brutally honest, I haven't been tuning the ecu at all! I have been screwing around with figuring out the automatic setup, fuel mixing, and nitrous jetting so much that I haven't touched the ignition timing map or fuel map since the third track day.

I basically ran the car on E85 first on Evo8 ignition map. bumped the timing up quite a bit and saw very little to none for knock sensor activity. Since then I'v left the timing alone and kept adding power with more nitrous and "adjusted" the fuel by varying the ratio of methanol/E85 and changing fuel pressure. Tuning with the ECU was pointless since the injectors are at 100% the entire way down the track.

It is entirely possible that I blew this motor up by my own tuning/setup mistakes. Which is fine, that's how one learns. I probably should have backed a little timing out along the way seeing how the auto is more load on the engine and also I kept giving it more and more spray. I think the fatal mistake was not refilling the coolant on two seperate days in order to rush back to lane before the staging closed....knowing full well it had blown 50% of the water out of the system on the previous run. Twice I went down the track with the ecu coolant temp sensor reading in the 220's to 250's.

Here's the log with settings attached.

 

[danl]

I can't look at those logs, I don't have dsmlink. Are you on the 1g ecu? The knock sensor board on the 1g ecu sucks especially once they get age on them since they are analog. You can push the timing well past mean brake torque easily with no knock sensor activity and lift the head. I've done it. You need to tune timing by reading plugs or visiting the dyno on the alcohol fuels. I would back it off at least 5 degrees where it let go and give her hell again.

 

[Nate Crisman]

I can't look at those logs, I don't have dsmlink. Are you on the 1g ecu? The knock sensor board on the 1g ecu sucks especially once they get age on them since they are analog. You can push the timing well past mean brake torque easily with no knock sensor activity and lift the head. I've done it. You need to tune timing by reading plugs or visiting the dyno on the alcohol fuels. I would back it off at least 5 degrees where it let go and give her hell again.

DSMlink computer program is a free download off the dsmlink.com website, it's handy to have to view other people's logs and look at their settings (settings and maps are all ingrained in the log file...pretty cool)

Ill take lots of pics of parts and the plugs as I pull the motor apart tomorrow.

 

[fran_drivertsi]

Holy knock batman! Don't you have knock light on? You were going down the track with 100% IDC all the way with almost 25deg of timing advance! That is the recipe for disaster. BOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!! Lets see how the top of those pistons look now.

 

[AlaskanDsm]

I love the smell of carnage in the afternoon! Those are sick numbers. I hope that new year will bring in new numbers and even more amazing passes!!

 

[Nate Crisman]

Holy knock batman! Don't you have knock light on? You were going down the track with 100% IDC all the way with almost 25deg of timing advance! That is the recipe for disaster. BOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!! Lets see how the top of those pistons look now.

I'm fully aware I'm running the injectors static, I have been since the second day running the car. I tune the fuel by varying the ratio of methanol to e85 when I fill the fuel cell and by adjusting fuel pressure or the fuel jet on the nitrous fogger. The injectors are but one piece of the tuning puzzle and if they are running 100% the whole time that simply takes that tuning variable out of the loop. I can now thing of the injectors as a simple fixed size nozzle and tune it like a carb or nitrous jet. Hahahah

The knock seems to be the hg blowing out, likely from coolant/oil getting into the combustion chamber. I ran the same tune/boost/fuelmix/nitrous 4 runs prior with not a blip of knock sensor activity, so it's not the tune. 25* of timing isn crazy either, Iv been running that timing map since the first day on e85.

I do have a knock CEL but A: I have more to pay attention to during a run and B: even if I saw it I wouldn't life since the pass was quick until that point. It's an old stock motor...I really don't care in the slightest that it blew. I only lifted when the smoke hit windshield and I honestly couldn't see well. I do value the shell of the car, but I'd trade blowing the motor if i knew I was on a new best pass.

Tops of pistons: my bet is they are nice and clean and in reusable condition. The knock wasn't tune induced detonation IMO, otherwise it would have blown up 15 passes ago on the same tune.

Will see tomorrow morn when the head comes off. I can always be wrong.

 

[danl]

Also if you can pictures of the combustion chamber side of the cylinder head and the tops of the pistons focusing more on the intake side of both. Feel it with your finger, is the surface smooth or rough like sandpaper.

EDIT:

Timing doesen't look too crazy, at least not with as much methanol/ethanol that you are using. The thing is you gotta figure out now if it was damaged due to an overheat or of something is causing detonation. Are you doing one meth nozzle for all cylinders? Also what is your target AFR or don't you really know?

 

[Nate Crisman]

Also if you can pictures of the combustion chamber side of the cylinder head and the tops of the pistons focusing more on the intake side of both. Feel it with your finger, is the surface smooth or rough like sandpaper.

EDIT:

Timing doesen't look too crazy, at least not with as much methanol/ethanol that you are using. The thing is you gotta figure out now if it was damaged due to an overheat or of something is causing detonation. Are you doing one meth nozzle for all cylinders? Also what is your target AFR or don't you really know?

Im mixing E85 and Methanol at a 62% to 38% ratio and running that as my main fuel in the fuel cell. There is no methanol injection like a typical "add on" with a seperate pump/nozzle. The wet nitrous kit's fuel supply is tapped off the inlet of the FPR so it's getting the same mix fuel at the same pressure as the 4 950cc injectors. The NOS fogger was jetted .046N/.033F and the fuel pressure is 41psi base.

The car has been overheating in the staging lanes pretty much the entire time I'v been running it at the track this year. At first I thought it was a fan issue or radiator issue, or thermostat issue. But as we kept making passes, the problem has gotten steadily worse. The odd thing is a compression test this week showed 155 to 145compression...nothing bad that would indicate a blown hg.

Like I said before, we did make two passes in the last few weeks that were "hot laps" and didn't add more water inbetween passes and the motor got up in the 240's to 250's on the return road. (stupid moves) The motor is pushing out the coolant obviously. I'll do another compression test before I pull the head just to see what it is tomorrow.

As for A/F ratio (* we are talking about the GASOLINE SCALE A/F)....
I should be aiming for about 11.0 A/F* on a normal gas wideband, which would be something in the .7 range for lambda. I came to that # by this info and multiplying by the percentage of total fuel:

Best power Lambda range for each fuel:
Gasoline: .83 to .86 (AFR gasoline scale: 12.2 to 12.5)
E85:....... .76 to .82 (AFR on gas scale: 11.2 to 12.2)
Methanol: .50 to .62 (AFR on gas scale: 7.4 to 9.2)

My target AFR reading from the innovate gas scale wideband will be different at each ratio of E85/methanol. On a side note, Iv read about how most of the LSU wideband sensors aren't even in the ballpark in the .5 to .6 lambda range so the "tuning" on methanol is likely not even within the range of the sensor.


of E85/Meth mixture ratio:
on a 75/25 mix I should target about 11.5 AFR (gas scale wideband)
on a 50/50 mix: ~10.8 AFR
on a 25/75 mix: ~10.0 AFR
100% meth:.... ~8 to 9 AFR

 

[Detective Coating]

Would have been a damn nice run Nate! Good luck with the new setup. Can't wait to see how far you can push the 16g auto. You've done a damn good job with it thus far.

 

[Nate Crisman]

At this point I guess the thing I need to consider is do I want to

A: build a race motor with high compression (10 or 11:1) and stonger internals that will be ideal for performance and reliability?

B: shove another stock motor in there under the mantra of "cheap partout performance" and cross my fingers for a while longer (and give up some performance due to low compression of at best 8.5:1)

I kinda thing the thunder has been stolen already with the 9 second stock bottom end deal since 2 people have done it already so that isn't as much a consideration anymore.

autopsy pics:

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I have a theory that 40* intake temps causing the methanol coming out of the single wet nitrous fogger in the upper ic pipe to fall out of suspension and not be evenly distributed with #4 going very lean and blowing up.

 

[Phil1320]

Damn..... that's some siginificant damage to the head.

Like you say, and is true in anything, if you don't test the waters, to the max and beyond, you will never find that top level of performance. Ask the best race car drivers out there if they've ever been off track, or better how many times they've been off.

Anyway......will you do a 4-port on the intake for next year as to better distribute NOS and Meth?

 

[Nate Crisman]

Damn..... that's some siginificant damage to the head.

Like you say, and is true in anything, if you don't test the waters, to the max and beyond, you will never find that top level of performance. Ask the best race car drivers out there if they've ever been off track, or better how many times they've been off.

Anyway......will you do a 4-port on the intake for next year as to better distribute NOS and Meth?

Yes..direct port nitrous kit for 2011 that will solve this uneven distribution problem. Nelson and I have been kicking around the idea of an EGT setup and maybe trying to set the car up on a dyno over the late winter rather than trying to do all the tuning at the track. It just sucks that dyno time is so expensive (and I ALWAYS blow up on the dyno...curse!)

I'll keep the single fogger kicking around in case I ever go for a big turbo and need a small dry shot on the starting line to get it to launch, but Im not planning to use a single fogger next year since it leaves well on boost alone.

I think putting anti-freeze in the engine this time also did me in. Straight water doesn't burn, but 50/50 mix will act like a cutting torch in a case like this with plenty of oxydizer. That is why the block is relatively undamaged between the cyl wall and the water port, but once the blowout cut through the head and into the anti-freeze it was able to torch a hole to between the coolant passage and the ouside of the block.


Next week will pull this motor/trans out of the car and break the engine down. Salvage parts go in a box and the junk goes in another. I should be able to save all off the upgraded valvetrain, the crank, front case, water pump, tbelt parts ect.

I should have a few heads in the shop that I can use for a core to build a fresh head for 2011. I also have a 2.0block that came with manley forged pistons and rods but spun a rod bearing that I can fix by using this engine's crankshaft and buying one new rod from manley at a cost of about $89. It's only 9:1 compression though I'll buy a new set of headstuds and gaskets. While it's apart I want to see about swapping the 264/272 cams for bigger sticks and picking up adjustable gears.

 

[warp9]

Sorry to see that meltdown man, you were heading for a great time no doubt. I have to question the 23-25* of timing while using nitrous however. That would be fine on e85 but nitrous changes everything considerably, even on a smaller shot.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Iv run nitrous on just about every car I'v raced in the last 10 years and have never had to use any drastic timing changes. When on racegas in all years prior, I'd often be fine running the same timing with or without nitrous give or take a degree or two. In 2005 with this yellow 1g, I was spraying a direct port 180hp hit and only needed to take out 4* of timing (aem ems at the time) with the aux trim to keep the knock voltage in line with what I would see on the motor alone.

I honestly don't think this was a timing/ecu tune related failure. The car had made about 12 passes on the same ECU maps, similar nitrous amount, same base timing, same methanol ratio. All the previous passes the motor ran clean, with no detonation signs on the plugs, no popping or ticking, and no knock sensor activity.

My gut feeling is that #4 as been running lean due to poor fuel distribution from the nitrous/AIT/manifold design and has likely been eroding the HG over the last few passes. Sunday was simply the straw that broke the camel's back and it completely blew out. And this time...we had antifreeze in the block to act as a torch instead of straight water.

 

[Phil1320]

Iv run nitrous on just about every car I'v raced in the last 10 years and have never had to use any drastic timing changes. When on racegas in all years prior, I'd often be fine running the same timing with or without nitrous give or take a degree or two. In 2005 with this yellow 1g, I was spraying a direct port 180hp hit and only needed to take out 4* of timing (aem ems at the time) with the aux trim to keep the knock voltage in line with what I would see on the motor alone.

I honestly don't think this was a timing/ecu tune related failure. The car had made about 12 passes on the same ECU maps, similar nitrous amount, same base timing, same methanol ratio. All the previous passes the motor ran clean, with no detonation signs on the plugs, no popping or ticking, and no knock sensor activity.

My gut feeling is that #4 as been running lean due to poor fuel distribution from the nitrous/AIT/manifold design and has likely been eroding the HG over the last few passes. Sunday was simply the straw that broke the camel's back and it completely blew out. And this time...we had antifreeze in the block to act as a torch instead of straight water.

I understand everything you've written here and I know with those intake designs sometimes cyl #4 can be off the other 3. Any chance of a coincedental #4 injector being weak/paritially clogged or were those new injectors, can't remember?

 

[Nate Crisman]

I understand everything you've written here and I know with those intake designs sometimes cyl #4 can be off the other 3. Any chance of a coincedental #4 injector being weak/paritially clogged or were those new injectors, can't remember?

Possible the injector is low too. I'm moving up to 1650 right away unless a set of 2000 come my way. The 950's are going down to FIC for a test/clean/balance and new seals so I can sell them in good faith. Iv already #'d them so he can tell me which injectors flowed what as I sent them.

 

[bullettdsm]

Static injectors Carburetion for the win

Anyway, Nate, don't get too hung up on the anti-freeze. Water can do that as well;

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This was pure water. It happened when I forgot to turn on my water-to-air pump for a single run.

On the bright side, my valves got cleaned up pretty nicely in that cylinder

MB

Oh, and I vote A. Let's see what you can really do with the comp. I'm a glutton for high comp.

 

[danl]

The ground strap looks very hot on the rusty plug on the left. You can say it had too much timing for the amount of fuel it had or not enough fuel for the amount of timing it had.

Methanol and to a lesser extent E85 won't detonate. You won't see it on the plugs and the knock sensor won't pick it up. You'll just burn it up .

EDIT:
Also damage on the intake side of the combustion chamber usually means too much timing and/or preignition. An upward moving piston combined with a downward moving combustion event causes a lot of heat and pressure. Spark induced preignition may bend rods, especially stock ones. A glowing spark plug ground strap should really buckle that rod if not break it and/or the crank.

 

[Phil1320]

Possible the injector is low too. I'm moving up to 1650 right away unless a set of 2000 come my way. The 950's are going down to FIC for a test/clean/balance and new seals so I can sell them in good faith. Iv already #'d them so he can tell me which injectors flowed what as I sent them.

So 4 port, cool. It will be interesting to see if the injectors played apart, however from what I'm reading here so far, most seem to think it was timing.

Either way, it would be nice to nail down the culprit 100% as to not let this happen again.

Definitely would be nice to get compression up in the the 9.0:1 range.....

Static injectors Carburetion for the win

Anyway, Nate, don't get too hung up on the anti-freeze. Water can do that as well;
This was pure water. It happened when I forgot to turn on my water-to-air pump for a single run.

On the bright side, my valves got cleaned up pretty nicely in that cylinder

MB

Oh, and I vote A. Let's see what you can really do with the comp. I'm a glutton for high comp.

Damn, that day sucked.....bummer man...just here taking notes....

The ground strap looks very hot on the rusty plug on the left. You can say it had too much timing for the amount of fuel it had or not enough fuel for the amount of timing it had.

Methanol and to a lesser extent E85 won't detonate. You won't see it on the plugs and the knock sensor won't pick it up. You'll just burn it up .

EDIT:
Also damage on the intake side of the combustion chamber usually means too much timing and/or preignition. An upward moving piston combined with a downward moving combustion event causes a lot of heat and pressure. Spark induced preignition may bend rods, especially stock ones. A glowing spark plug ground strap should really buckle that rod if not break it and/or the crank.

Interesting stuff and good info here.....

 

[biglady112]

EGT's are hands down the best way to tune a car. We have been using 4 egt's on the land speed car for almost four years. We have never lost a motor because of it. He uses crappy composite felpro gaskets, so they only last so long, but having EGT's with a wideband just as a reference is the only way to go. And I think 25* timing is too much. You have to think your base timing is added to that also. And you have nitrous that is compunding the issue.

If you are interested we can talk off line for what has worked for us.