Damaged Wiseco Pistons (Not Pretty)

[keltalon]

provided that they are used appropriately.

This is the same thing satan (dealerships) say when you buy a new car from him and this "used appropriately" is the clause they leave to their judgment and deny warranties! Most on this board road race, dyno, drag racie these actions are definitely are not considered by many to be using their cars so called appropriately. I expected nothing less from the mouth of a true salesman.

 

[JacksonAuto]

I see on his website engine blocks that can handle 800hp that's 200hp/cylinder can you imagine the stress that is exerted on each piston, rod and crank. that's 4 times the stress from stock. can you rightfully warranty such an engine? Just want to know. As a reputable builder I am again shocked that he will say that the monster engines some of us build with the stress and loads that is exerted on them can outlast one from the factory this is plain fantasy. Don't get me wrong I would love for my engine to last forever but I am realistic it won't at my power levels.

The first question that you posed was, "Talking about building an engine to last how long to you think a 500 hp 4 cylinder will last?"

All of the examples I gave you fell under this category. Now in your last post you are addressing our 800hp packages. That's a completely different conversation. I did not say that our 800hp engines will outlast a factory engine. I said that our 500hp engines can, and do.

I don't know what your problem is with us but please stop instigating arguments and refrain from calling me a liar on a public forum.

 

[TSITurbo95]

* Grabs some popcorn and a coke*

 

[JacksonAuto]

This is the same thing satan (dealerships) say when you buy a new car from him and this "used appropriately" is the clause they leave to their judgment and deny warranties! Most on this board road racing, dyno, drag racing definitely are using their cars so called appropriately. I expect nothing less from the mouth of a true salesman.

Ok, so you come to me to buy a set of pistons and I say that they're good for up to about 600hp reliably. You install them and turn up the boost, make 700hp or so and the piston breaks and I'm somehow supposed to warrant that? You're being unreasonable. Or you buy an engine, and detonate the crap out of it and knock the bearings out of it and I'm supposed to warrant that, too? That's what I meant by "appropriately".

 

[JacksonAuto]

What's up Ryan? Your crank is done.

 

[keltalon]

The first question that you posed was, "Talking about building an engine to last how long to you think a 500 hp 4 cylinder will last?"

All of the examples I gave you fell under this category. Now in your last post you are addressing our 800hp packages. That's a completely different conversation. I did not say that our 800hp engines will outlast a factory engine. I said that our 500hp engines can, and do.

I don't know what your problem is with us but please stop instigating arguments and refrain from calling me a liar on a public forum.

Show me in my post where you were called a liar? I certainly haven't seen it. When you say our engines last longer than stock be more clear so that there is no misunderstanding. And to be frank IMO no 500hp 4 cylinder with that amount of stress on rotating assembly will outlast a stock engine come on jackson you really know better

 

[BogusSVO]

JAM.. thats a hell of a deal you put there. Most shops do not back there work tat far on anything other than stock.

But you are right, appropriately, is the key word....

But in short, if the tune is off and it fries the pistons, not your fault... but if you miss grit from a crank grind/polish and it takes out a bearing, you take care of it.. sounds fair enough to me.

Sounds about like the "Handshake warranty" that I offer.

once an engine leaves a shop, there are so many things that can go wrong to kill a new engine....
dirty tin, old oil pump slammed back on, a fuel injector partly clogged and not spraying properly, base time set too high...

To expect an engine builder to warranty an engine for any of those reasons just is not feasable..

 

[keltalon]

JAM.. thats a hell of a deal you put there. Most shops do not back there work tat far on anything other than stock.

But you are right, appropriately, is the key word....

But in short, if the tune is off and it fries the pistons, not your fault... but if you miss grit from a crank grind/polish and it takes out a bearing, you take care of it.. sounds fair enough to me.

Sounds about like the "Handshake warranty" that I offer.

once an engine leaves a shop, there are so many things that can go wrong to kill a new engine....
dirty tin, old oil pump slammed back on, a fuel injector partly clogged and not spraying properly, base time set too high...

To expect an engine builder to warranty an engine for any of those reasons just is not feasable..

I really don't expect jackson or any engine builder to warranty an engine that fail under these circumstances then I would be just as unreasonable as him talking about a 500hp 4 cylinder will last just as long as a stock engine. I asked him because he put it out there that just because he used wiseco pistons the engine he build is bullet proof and if so did he have enough faith to give a warranty. I know I called wiseco junk but I guess I should have said I prefer to use a different brand my bad. I have had a bad experience with them twice. Again I am glad OP worked out his issue. Because in the DSM world there is no better feeling than working out an issue and getting the car back on the road again congrats OP.

 

[BogusSVO]

Kelton.. think of it this way, yes the engine will make 500 hp at XXXX RPM.... Cool! GREAT!!

But how often will the engine see that when it is a DD/ street driven, yes it is nice to have that amount of power on tap when you go to pass someone.

But out of 1000 miles on the engine, how many of them are at full load? I would guess with weekend warrior car, say 5-10 of hard abusive miles a couple times of month.

So the guy JAM talked about having 80k miles on his engine, may have about 800 hard miles on it...

as big as you are into it, how many hard miles and dyno runs have you put on your car in the past 5000 miles?

With this being the case, you have a 500hp engine doing the work of a 200hp engine, it will have a long life as long as proper mantiance is kept on it, that gose for the any engine tho.

 

[keltalon]

Kelton.. think of it this way, yes the engine will make 500 hp at XXXX RPM.... Cool! GREAT!!

But how often will the engine see that when it is a DD/ street driven, yes it is nice to have that amount of power on tap when you go to pass someone.

But out of 1000 miles on the engine, how many of them are at full load? I would guess with weekend warrior car, say 5-10 of hard abusive miles a couple times of month.

So the guy JAM talked about having 80k miles on his engine, may have about 800 hard miles on it...

as big as you are into it, how many hard miles and dyno runs have you put on your car in the past 5000 miles?

With this being the case, you have a 500hp engine doing the work of a 200hp engine, it will have a long life as long as proper mantiance is kept on it, that gose for the any engine tho.

Yeah you make a good point

 

[turboglenn]

My local machinist who is a friend and enthusiast in his own work warranties his hi performance builds for me.. I told him I wanted the car to be able to hold 500 hp daily and steady state high RPM operation. And he warranties is even though i assembled it (he checked and fit, and labeled every part and the wrist pin rod to piston connectsions and stated what oil grades to use only and no exceptions (said he'd know if i ran anything thicker than 10w30 and recomended 5w-30 and that's what i've ran for nearly 22k miles on the wiseco 9:1 eagle H-beam combo. I know if it fails and the failure is related to the engine build or for no reason basically that he'd supply free work and parts to the extent extending to the conditions of the damage, this is not a "full no exclusions warraty" but is a promise and backing on behalf of the builder anmd in the circumstances used for is still a damn good offering on his behalf. What i'mgetting at is i think there's a HUGE variance in machine work warranty backing but any good machinist will make an honest assesment of how and why the failure happened and take care of his customerto the best of his ability and desire to back the failure

plain and simple, choost your machinst wisely, and preferably having known him as a friend before your machinist is an option because i don't think i'd get the same treatment on warranty backing as the average pre-20's kid with the same part would get, buit that's because the machinist has to back his faith in the buyer's ability to give an engine proper oiling, cooling and fuel/spark mapping for the boost levels to get out of the realm of just any idiot tossing any tune on an hi-po engine build and then expecting the machinist to back any bit of it if the damage was "retarded owner related" which certainly i know the parties here are both knowledgable in the terms of running a 4g63, so what i'm getting at is the warranty can vary widely but a good machinist when paired with a good (as well as smart) customer, they will keep each other happy in both free/cheap but quality work as well as the custopmer being loyal and following his machinst istructions for that engines operation with out a bit of neglegence. I think any machinist that will offer and honestly honor any type of high performance warranty work to the faceless idiot from the net or from the lcoal high-school that has car knowledge that's about as extensive as the fast and furious movies

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Yeah you make a good point

not to troll or anyting.... but... OWNED!

 

[turboglenn]

not to troll or anyting.... but... OWNED!

I don't think that was the pure and sole intention of the statement by Bogus, i think it was more intended as coming from a machinist's point of view, this is the more apropriate way to think of what abuse the engine will see in a given time or milage restrictions of high performance engine backing by the builder.

I could be wrong and maybe i'm just trying to keep the peace, either way there's no point in trying to fan a flame for entertainment here.

 

[keltalon]

not to troll or anyting.... but... OWNED!

No owning here I made my point solid it takes a freind to throw cool water on situation when Bogus SVO speaks I always listen and as far as I am concern his word is bond this is the respect I have always had of him That's my boy! You see those stars under his name enough said!

 

[BogusSVO]

Kelton.. Thank you.

All I wanted to do is point out the view some builders have, and some of the logic they have with the warrantys they give or not give.

 

[keltalon]

My local machinist who is a friend and enthusiast in his own work warranties his hi performance builds for me.. I told him I wanted the car to be able to hold 500 hp daily and steady state high RPM operation. And he warranties is even though i assembled it (he checked and fit, and labeled every part and the wrist pin rod to piston connectsions and stated what oil grades to use only and no exceptions (said he'd know if i ran anything thicker than 10w30 and recomended 5w-30 and that's what i've ran for nearly 22k miles on the wiseco 9:1 eagle H-beam combo. I know if it fails and the failure is related to the engine build or for no reason basically that he'd supply free work and parts to the extent extending to the conditions of the damage, this is not a "full no exclusions warraty" but is a promise and backing on behalf of the builder anmd in the circumstances used for is still a damn good offering on his behalf. What i'mgetting at is i think there's a HUGE variance in machine work warranty backing but any good machinist will make an honest assesment of how and why the failure happened and take care of his customerto the best of his ability and desire to back the failure

plain and simple, choost your machinst wisely, and preferably having known him as a friend before your machinist is an option because i don't think i'd get the same treatment on warranty backing as the average pre-20's kid with the same part would get, buit that's because the machinist has to back his faith in the buyer's ability to give an engine proper oiling, cooling and fuel/spark mapping for the boost levels to get out of the realm of just any idiot tossing any tune on an hi-po engine build and then expecting the machinist to back any bit of it if the damage was "retarded owner related" which certainly i know the parties here are both knowledgable in the terms of running a 4g63, so what i'm getting at is the warranty can vary widely but a good machinist when paired with a good (as well as smart) customer, they will keep each other happy in both free/cheap but quality work as well as the custopmer being loyal and following his machinst istructions for that engines operation with out a bit of neglegence. I think any machinist that will offer and honestly honor any type of high performance warranty work to the faceless idiot from the net or from the lcoal high-school that has car knowledge that's about as extensive as the fast and furious movies

This is exactly the kind of machinist I have. He helps me because everybody here is very impressed with the 4 banger making 500 plus horses considering I am in the heart of v8 muscle land

 

[turboglenn]

This is exactly the kind of machinist I have. He helps me because everybody here is very impressed with the 4 banger making 500 plus horses considering I am in the heart of v8 muscle land

I consider my machinist every bit as important as my doctor as far as moving to a new city and having to find a new one that i can put my trust/health in his hands and knowall is right for my money

Best type of machinist is one who'll know you on a personal level and go that extra mile for the standard "metered mile" rate to ensure your engine although being used at WOT and double the OEM HP levels will stand behind that engine and help you absorb the failure should one occur, more so if it's something that a different clearance or step on his behald would have prevented < (and having them acknowledge and own up to and cover something of this sorts when no law would even consider forcing him to do in the circumstances of the build)

 

[JacksonAuto]

JAM.. thats a hell of a deal you put there. Most shops do not back there work tat far on anything other than stock.

But you are right, appropriately, is the key word....

But in short, if the tune is off and it fries the pistons, not your fault... but if you miss grit from a crank grind/polish and it takes out a bearing, you take care of it.. sounds fair enough to me.

Sounds about like the "Handshake warranty" that I offer.

once an engine leaves a shop, there are so many things that can go wrong to kill a new engine....
dirty tin, old oil pump slammed back on, a fuel injector partly clogged and not spraying properly, base time set too high...

To expect an engine builder to warranty an engine for any of those reasons just is not feasable..

Thanks, we are confident in our work. We've been in business for over 30 years. That wouldn't be the case if we built hand grenades that blew up in under 20k. Some people like to talk crap just to hear themselves talk.

 

[keltalon]

Thanks, we are confident in our work. We've been in business for over 30 years. That wouldn't be the case if we built hand grenades that blew up in under 20k. Some people like to talk crap just to hear themselves talk.

I have been in business myself for over 20yrs and still going strong in my trade. Top Atlanta Custom Woodwork | 678-378-7969. the key to success is not how long you been on business but how many repeat customers you have? That is what's most important. Naturally with you being the sale person you are you will say you have many and I will respond and we will go back and forth. If you are happy with your success then that's all that matter!

 

[tron2119]

Damn dude. Had a bad experience with JAM or something?? Seems you just keep calling them out because they are confident in their work. They are being completely respectful of you and not ripping you apart because of what you're saying about them but, you aren't giving them the same courtesy. Just my observation...

 

[BogusSVO]

Kelton....Machine shop work differs a bit from your wood working.

In the machine shop world, the avarage "walk-in" customer is a one shot deal, We build the engine, they install it, and we may not ever hear from them again, a good engine will last 10 years or more.
Having a repair shop bring work to you is diffrent.

You being a "car guy" or racer, falls in a very thin line of a machine shop customer base, we see guys like you a few time a year or season.

But what we want is the customer to bring back a buddy who wants work done.

What we do not want is the same customer comming back with the same project time and time again.

Both of you have been running your own shops longer than I, I have had my shop for 8 going on 9 years, but I have been doing machine work since 1992.

 

[DSMReviver]

Damn dude. Had a bad experience with JAM or something?? Seems you just keep calling them out because they are confident in their work. They are being completely respectful of you and not ripping you apart because of what you're saying about them but, you aren't giving them the same courtesy. Just my observation...

I agree. kelton cool off, grab a coke and cool your fingers off from the keyboard.

JAM keep up the good work! Don't slack off

BogusSVO teach me i want to learn

 

[EclipticalGS]

A little late but I can tell you how many times I've destroyed a bottom end in a kx250 from a wiseco skirt failure. Three. Back in the early 2000s racing seasons the standard was a hot rods crank and a wiseco piston. First time the skirt popped I thought it was my fault. All those times I let my bike warm up for 30 seconds before a race that had to be it, I was pissed it only lasted 3 weeks. New bottomend and cylinder bored 20 over, reassembled by me by the books and exactly in the middle of any tolerance zone, 1 week goes by and in the middle of a race the bike bogs and pops. Later disassembly showed one skirt cracked, other skirt said hello to my crank. Took a fresh bottom end and my used cylinder to the machine shop, gave me a run around about piston to wall clearance, how important warmup is etc. Replaced with last wiseco any engine of mine has ever seen and what do you know last local amateur circuits for 2003, as I pulled back up to my trailer after practice I had 5 hours till the first race, my motor is pinging pretty bad and sounds like metal rattling inside. Tear the hoe of a motor down and find the piston skirts have the stress cracks seen in the previously posted pictures. I walked over to the manley rep. Purchased a manley piston and reassembled with no gaging, no assembly oil just klotts, new case/headgaskets and I beat the shit out of the motor like this for 4-5 months straight before the piston rings gave up. It only takes one bad experience to save you from a life time of them I guess.

 

[keltalon]

I agree. kelton cool off, grab a coke and cool your fingers off from the keyboard.

JAM keep up the good work! Don't slack off

BogusSVO teach me i want to learn

Whatever dude. There's a big difference in arrogance and confidence trust me. I am on these boards to help the little guy like me if you don't want my help no problem. Wiseco is not a piston of
Choice plain and simple!!!!! You just keep kissing okay and just maybe you will get that 10%

 

[turboglenn]

it's funny how some people can't keep a piston together and others never have an issue.. I had ONE major failure that was the pistons fault from a wiseco piston in a 2-stroke during my motorcross racing days from age 8 to 18, ONE failure and it was one out of countless wiseco pistons i used in those years. I would put a new top end in my engine only when it needed it as i didn't hve the money of someof my fellow racers to do a fresh top end every weekend or month, so i put them through a service life from new to"well worn" and never had an issue.

Wiseco wouldnt be in business if they really just made that many junk pistons with all the failures falling in their lap, and my machinist wouldn't have let me use them if they were anything less than adequate as you should see the amount of cranks and parts he made me bring him refusing to give me an engine that was anything less than perfect in every aspect of fit, form and proper parts installation.

I've got maybe 30K on my Wiseco/Eagle combo and although I Haven't pulled it apart to inspect, i'm assuming all is well as there's many things i check frequently to ewnsure the engine is healthy and lal still checks out fine. I've had 1 HG failure and 2 t-belt failureson this bottom end build and at least the tops of the pistons have been in perfect shape on every tear down

I think as with any part some people are going to swear against them and some will swear by them, no need to get in a pissing match with others just because their opinions of a product aredifferent from yours, and thats' to everyone in this thread.

As with any part, some failures are probably PTW and other things the machinist may have gotten wrong as well as mis-haps and improper installation and use by the end user/owner. I was enjoying this thread when it was accounts of failures and posts of usefulinformation that if for no other reason was good statistics, now it's just turned into a private argument, please folks just drop the hostility and wak off if ya need, but nothing is being accomplished by bickering.