Comparo Results: EvoIII 16g, 20G, GT3076R

[pickens]

Okay, first let me start off by saying I decided to do this because (contrary to popular belief) there is not alot of "Hard/real/valid" results from people who have ran 20G's anymore. I guess no one really runs em or puts much effort behind them anymore. So I was about to install a GT3076R when I thought I'd try a 20G first (I always wanted one deep down). So this post will compare the EvoIII 16g to a TDO6 -06H 20G to a GT3076R. By the way all turbos were brand new. The idea is to compare how the turbos perform for the average joe like myself.

I'm comparing these turbos back to back on my 2G GSX.
Mod List:
2.0L 7-Bolt
8.3:1 Weisco/Scat Combo
FP2 Cams, BC valve springs, SS valves
3" Turboback Exhaust
Hahn FMIC
SBR Cast Exhaust manifold
Tial 38mm Wastegate
750cc FIC injectors, 255 Walbro, AFPR
ACT2600, Fidanza Flywheel
DSMLink, PLX-WB, GM3.3 Bar (I'll post up logs)
(Probably some other things I can't remember)

All tunes are on 91 octane pump gas.

EvoIII 16g Performance review
See attached logs

For those who can't view logs
Log 1- Boost 16-17psi, Airflow 36 lb/min @ 7k RPM .
Log 2 -Boost 20-21psi, Airflow 40 lb/min @ 7k RPM.

If anyone needs some logs to compare a Evo3 against, I have a bunch from trying different tuning strategies (just let me know). Basically I found that the Evo3 does not like timing at all once the boost starts going above 19psi. It seems to be a knock happy turbo on 91 pump at 20psi. Raising the boost above 20psi didn't net any real gains as I had to either pull timing or richen it up. My experience would say keep the boost at 20 psi for DD and tune it good, anymore boost and it'll just make it harder for you on 91.

TD-06H 20G install: Everything bolts up like the 16g, except I needed to dent my water pipe. I think I had to dent the pipe because of the sorry SBR manifold. It is designed very poorly IMO (it should've spaced the turbo out further). You also have to bend the turbo water lines pretty good to clear the compressor cover (but the stock lines work).

20G Performance Review

Alright, I got some quick pulls done today. There seems to be something strange going on with the fuel system. I couldn't get the A/F ratio down to 10.5. It was stuck at 10.8 no matter how much fuel I tried to add. I shouldn't be outflowing the injectors yet (well, maybe w/ a rich A/F). My FP is not rewired yet, but a 255 should still flow enough for the power level. So I'm going to rewire the FP and bump up the fuel pressure a few lbs tomorrow. But here are a coulpe of logs (not tuned well at all) but I can share some observations.

Log 3 - Shows the lag from 3k RPM (Reaches 20psi by 4k RPM w/ zero tuning).
Log 4 - 21-22 psi, Airflow 41 lb/min @ 7k RPM

Once I feel comfortable w/ my fuel setup, I will tune until I can't get anymore out of it like I did the evo3. However, I can tell you a few things so far from my observations. The 20G does not hit nowhere near as hard as the evo3 at spool-up. However, the 20G makes up for it in the topend feel. Anything at 20psi or lower, I would say the EvoIII outshines the 20G. It hits harder (so it feels faster) and the both are comparable in overall power( iwas seeing the same airflow numbers). As I begin to run 21-22psi (something that the Evo3 didn't like on 91 pump), I started to like the 20G over the evo3. The 20G definately pulls harder and longer. So far, it seems easier to tune at these boost levels.

 

[1992awdlaser]

TD-06H 20G install: Everything bolts up like the 16g, except I needed to dent my water pipe. I think I had to dent the pipe because of the sorry SBR manifold. It is designed very poorly IMO (it should've spaced the turbo out further).
20G Performance Review - Logs to come tomorrow.

Is it the cast manifold? With my SBR cast manifold and my 50 trim I didn't have to dent my water pipe. Maybe it is because I am using a n/t water pipe though. There is still about half an inch between the compressor cover and the water pipe though.

 

[BoostFrenzy]

Looking forward to the rest man.

Subscribed

 

[Mr Peepers]

Great idea btw.

Since you're fwd, it's a bit hard to see how the boost comes in with a 2nd gear roll on because of the wheelspin. Do you have a log of a 3rd gear roll from ~2k on to see how the boost comes on with both turbos and a little better idea of the torque curve(airflow/rev)?

 

[1997hciv]

He said he was doing the testing on a 2g GSX unless it was a typo?

 

[Mr Peepers]

Nevermind me

I saw he let off in second gear with the first evo3 log and assumed wheelspin after seeing gst in his profile haha. I see that his CEL flashed from knock instead.

A good 3rd gear pull from a low rpm would still be nice though

I think it's bedtime

 

[Black95TSIawd]

I'm also interested in the 20g results.

 

[brute]

I'm also interested in the 20g results.

Definitely.

 

[daren_p]

This should be a great thread, always like back to back to back testing with hard data results Couple things I'm wondering are you still running the 2g head & if so is anything done to it? What are you running for an intake mani? Are you using the stock 2g MAF or a GM MAFT setup?

Edit: Go GT3076

 

[BoostFrenzy]

are you still running the 2g head & if so is anything done to it?

FP2 Cams, BC valve springs, SS valves

That's the only head work I see. But if you plan on running the GT30R for long periods of times at some nice boost levels, I say a port and polish will do it some good for the top end as long as it is done properly.

 

[pickens]

Sorry for the delay, I ran into some issues after the 20G install. Somehow my exhaust was hitting the driveshaft, and then my battery took a hard dump. Brand new battery and realigned exhaust so I will be out tuning today. To answer some of your questions:


The head is not ported but I did clean out some of the casting flashes when I had it off. Stock 2G intake mani. 2G MAF w/ a 3" intake for the evo3 and 20g, FP 4" intake for the GT3076r. All intakes recirc. the BOV.

And FWIW, the motor in the GSX is only about 600-700 miles old.

 

[pickens]

I updated the original post but couldn't post the logs. Here are the first 20G logs. More to come after I sort out the fuel setup over the next couple of days.

 

[daren_p]

One thing I would pay attention too after looking at the most recent logs, is your timing. Its seems very low for a motor with stock internals. I'd be wanting to see atleast 12 deg by redline & would prefer more in the 14-15 range (obviously the higher the better).

 

[joe]

One thing I would pay attention too after looking at the most recent logs, is your timing. Its seems very low for a motor with stock internals. I'd be wanting to see atleast 12 deg by redline & would prefer more in the 14-15 range (obviously the higher the better).

+1
and in your logs for the 16g your coolant temps were @190 and intake air temps were @ 73

for the 20g coolant temps were @ 206 and 114 intake air

imo you should be showing better numbers on both turbos considering that you have cams also

 

[CanadianTSi]

So far it looks like about 1lb/min more airflow with a 1psi increase in boost and 4 degree's less timing.

One thing that I noticed 3-4 years ago when I went from the Evo 3 to a 50 trim, is that with both turbo's at exactly 20psi there isn't that much of a difference in airflow. The Evo 3 is right in a sweet spot and the bigger turbo's are just starting to get warmed up.

 

[Steve93Talon]

There seems to be something strange going on with the fuel system. I couldn't get the A/F ratio down to 10.5. It was stuck at 10.8 no matter how much fuel I tried to add.

It sounds like you might have the incompatibility problem between the ECU input and the wideband signal. Do you have the buffer circuit that DSMlink offers?

 

[pickens]

The evoIII logs have decent timing for 91 pump and the amount of airflow IMO (12-13 degrees timing by 7k RPM). Keep in mind I did not really tune those 20G logs because of the fuel issue, so I agree the timing is not where it should.

What do you mean by better numbers (airflow?, timing?). Please specify.

If by buffer circuit you mean a capacitor in parallel from signal to ground, then yes.

20G Update/Fuel issue:
I think I nailed the fuel issue. The 750cc were just out of breathe. I bumped up the fuel pressure and the A/F ratio dropped nicely. Now I can start getting down to tuning the 20G. I brought the car to work this morning and bumped up the fuel pressure by 4lbs and guessed at a tune. The log is below. It seems to be a good starting point. We'll see how far I can get it.

 

[Steve93Talon]

If by buffer circuit you mean a capacitor in parallel from signal to ground, then yes.

No.

http://www.dsmlink.com/wiki/ECUInputData

 

[CanadianTSi]

Your Injector duty cycle is way to high and I just noticed your adding tons of fuel via the sliders. Either you have a fuel delivery issue or you really have 650's...

EDIT... Maybe your wideband is off and you are silly rich, if you change the DSMLink est AFR props to 750's you see that you should be off the chart rich.

I Would check to make sure your AFPR is rising 1:1.

 

[pickens]

CanadianTSI: You are possibly spot on w/ the injectors being 650cc's possibly. I considered that as well. See my post over on DSMLink questioning this:
DSMLink User Group Forums

I verifed by setting my settings to match 650cc's but could not get the LTFT lo-mid in line w/out major adjustments. So I concluded they must be 750cc's. However, I have a set of 650cc's laying around I may throw in to test. I will also check the AFPR.

Steve: I think the buffer circuit you mention is mainly for the baro input on a 2g which I'm not using.

In any event, something is up in the fuel system. The WB is probably pretty close as the narrow band O2 tends to indicate logical readings for 10.5. I'm betting the injectors are really 650cc's or the AFPR is screwy. I will know by tonight for sure.

 

[CanadianTSi]

I'm thinking more along the lines of a fuel delivery issue. Maybe a faulty FPR or a split in the vacuum line going to it.

With the -40 global and no airflow adjustments down low if you actually had 650's then your Fuel Trims should be way off.

 

[pickens]

Right. That's how I came to the conclusion that the injectors are doing what they should. The line to the AFPR is T'd into the GM3.3bar which is only 6-7" long. No splits there. So all indications seem to be pointing to a screwy AFPR.

Thanks for the helpful insights.

 

[pickens]

I sorted out the fuel issue. It was real basic. The fuel pump needed the rewire to keep up. I've been driving the car the past couple of days to get some seat time w/ the 20G. For the most part, I love it! Driveability is much easier than with the evoIII. Because the evoIII spooled so damn fast, I'd have to pay attention to boost when going part throttle (the gas pedal was basically an On or OFF switch). W/ the 20G, part throttle response is much easier to control. Taking the car through some twisties (safely), I was able to better control the throttle from apex to exit.

Here's my breakdown analysis so far:
EvoIII vs. 20G

EvoIII hits much, much harder in 1st and 2nd gear! So much you swear the car is super fast. After the intial hit, it slowly tapers down.

20G hits much smoother in all gears. You first think its not pulling hard, but then it keeps getting faster and faster.

EvoIII keeps up with the 20G up to about 21psi. After that the 20G slowly begins to eek out a power advantage.

The evoIII power curve is more peakier than the 20G. The 20g carries power a long way throughout the rev band. Should net better times even at the same max power.

Tuning is much more difficult on the evoIII to run 20-21psi on 91. To make decent power, you have to keep the tune on the edge which will require constant tweaking w/ climate changes. The 20g in comparison is easier to slap a tune on and have that tune be consistent.

On pure 91 octane pump, the price difference between the evoIII and 20G is not justified. For 50% of the price, the evo3 does 90% of the 20G's work.


I plan on taking the 20g to the drag strip this weekend to see what it can do. I may or may not run it on pump as the last run I did w/ the evoIII at the track was on 100octane.
I will post logs and results either way.

Here are the logs from yesterday/today w. the fuel fully sorted out on the 20G. There still some knock that needs to be tuned down, but its close.
Log 1 - Street run (slightly downhill) 20-21psi
Log 2 - Freeway 3rd gear pull (Flat) 22-23psi

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[pickens]

After I see what the 20G can do this weekend at the track, I will put on the GT3076R and compare it to the 20G.

 

[Black95TSIawd]

I can't open the dsmlink file at work, but how many lbs/min are you seeing at 23psi with the 20g?