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EVOIII 16g vs. T28

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pboglio

15+ Year Contributor
1,799
85
May 8, 2004
Palos Heights, Illinois
Figured I'd post up my impressions of the differences between these 2 turbos. I'll start off by saying don't buy a T28, go straight to the EVOIII 16g. On with the impressions:

Install:
I thought I covered everything but I had a brain fart and ordered a 2g oil feed line that obviously didn't fit for a 16g. Luckily I bought a stock 1g hard oil feed line for a TD05H a good 12 years ago that I never used, well I used it finally:D I'm embarrassed to say it took me 2 days to completely finish the job, which included all porting etc. The turbo removal took 2.5 hours but then I got sucked into porting the turbine housing, then figured I'd port the 02 housing which needed it since the turbine outlet was bigger on the 16g. Then I lost interest and started watching alot of TV between breaks, and so on:D This is what happens when you get older. The coolant lines needed some good bending and I needed to cut new 3/8 rubber hoses to extend the lines to reach. For the boost pressure fitting I stole a trick from "tuners" and tapped the screw hole used for anchoring the oil feed line onto the compressor housing using a 1/8-27 NPT tap. I then drilled a thru hole using the barbed fitting opening as a drill bushing pilot.

This worked out great and it actually looks stock (see pics). I then decided to do a "thorough" intake pressure leak test. I found a huge amount of pressure leaks at 30 psi but nothing a dozen mini zip ties didn't fix. Luckily the car cranked over without so much as a drip of coolant or oil. However, the coolant passages had trapped alot of air when I refilled the engine coolant and coolant temps went a little warm. A shutdown and coolant burping/refill fixed this problem easily.


Driveability:
My plans are roadracing and I need power coming out of slow corners as well as topend grunt. Back in 1995 I ran a small 16g with a clipped turbine wheel and this time around I decided I'd balance out the topend with as much low end grunt as possible. On paper it would appear the T28 would trump the EVOIII 16g in this category but I've always felt the T28 was actually a laggy turbo for its size so I was crossing my fingers.

This time around I would leave the turbine wheel unclipped. My plan seems to have worked. The EVOIII 16g seems to make power fairly early on, I can start to get on it at around 2800 rpm coming out of a slow corner and it pulls cleanly from there. I'm even getting a mini torque hit starting as low as 3200 rpms which is fantastic as my T28 never did that. I was extremely surprised by this, but during the install as previously mentioned I fixed a ton of vacuum leaks, replaced a 70,000 mile 02 sensor that was on its way out, and fixed a leaky downpipe gasket. I believe the larger turbine housing/turbine wheel of the 16g has some benefits on the low end off boost believe it or not.

Sound:
The exhaust note is raspier under full throttle. It sounds nasty on boost with a definite "cammy" bark and I dig it. I'm not surprised by this because the 7cm turbine housing is much bigger than the T28 right where the turbine wheel is exposed to the exhaust gasses, probably 40% bigger. Compressor suction noise is the same, quiet basically without any kind of turbo whining.

Boost Creep:
I did a fairly mild port job on the turbine inlet, just removing the step and no more than that. Wastegate port was completely untouched. Some might say why? Well I actually want boost creep, as much as the turbo can give me. Results: I can still hold a dead solid 15 psi to redline. I believe my very well ported 2g 02 housing and 2.5" downpipe are keeping boost levels in check and very nicely controlled.

Power:
Initially what I was a little surprised with was the power at 15 psi. Very underwhelming. I'm used to a 25 psi spike on my T28 and this felt tame by comparison. O.K., so I say the hell with it, dump in 2 bottles Lucas octane booster & 3 gallons 118 octane xylene and just crank the boost. I believe the boost hit somewhere north of 26 psi but the torque hit is MUCH nastier than my T28. So the 16g wastegate actuator is solid right out of the box without any shimming or the like.

So what kind of power differences are we talking about? Well, now keep in mind I use DSMLink to estimate power. The best my T28 could produce in 2nd gear was about 380 h.p. at the crank given similar mods. It was maxxed out and completely done and I had no desire to squeeze more out of it as I was starting to get nickle and dimed to death trying to get another 10 h.p. out of it.

For the EVOIII 16g, I had calculated a rough estimate of what power I'd be seeing before the install given my current mods, that number was 435 h.p. My initial impressions at 15 psi didn't bode well for big power though. On with the run. I had my Palm Pilot logging during the run which I obviously ignore until I download the log back home. I proceed to pull out of my complex and give the clutch a little time to warm up. First WOT pull is great, nearly full power at 60% throttle. Then I get greedy and crank the boost some more, what that boost level was I have no idea as the xylene usually takes care of any knock. I go WOT again and without exaggeration the torque steer pulls the car close to the curb and nearly onto the grass. The 3rd WOT pull I have a chance to wind it out. This one scares even me. The cam bark is nasty, the car squats so hard my Blizzak winter tires completely squirm sideways on its squishy tread blocks. The pull above 6000 rpms is hard to describe, feels like an electric drill. This was by far the funnest WOT pull I've ever done. I have to remind people this is 2nd gear so I'm still right around 60 mph, yes its a big ticket still but its a compromise.

I get home and review the log. Its hard to tell from the driver's seat, I was hoping for 400h.p. at least. That run felt downright nasty. Well the EVOIII 16g completely blew away the T28 with about 429 h.p. at the crank. That is nearly a 50 h.p. increase from the turbo swap alone. The 16g had more boost in it but I'm waiting for even bigger cams and the re-installation of my speed density setup before I go all out. I'm expecting 470 h.p. all said and done with the colder winter temps. Overall its a :thumb:
 

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Yep, its the original FPT28/T28 from Forced Performance.

Here's a couple logs showing the difference between the T28 maxxed out and the EVOIII 16g approx. 1 day after I installed it.
 

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hit a dyno before you start throwing out HP numbers. I've had both turbos on my car and both have been on the dyno and at the track plenty. The best numbers at the 1/4 with the T28 were 12.2@112 and I think around 280awhp on 110 leaded. With the E316g at 28psi and no traction(new tires) I've done a 12.00@119 and 370awhp on E85. For whatever comparison the dyno numbers were off a dyno dynamics awd setup.

I thought the T28 spooled up stupid fast which was great for torque and street driving or auto-x. The 16g seems to have much more pull up top and still has very good spool up. Your numbers are probably fairly close but, its hard to say with out any real data. I could guess and say if I had a chance to make a pull on a Mustang or Dynojet I would like to think over 400awhp which would be over 450hp at the crank maybe...? Best of luck on your setup, looks like it is working well for you!!
 
I think Pboglio is using the dsmlink HP estimates to just compare old turbo numbers to the new.
Pboglio, that is great that you are now running the evo316g. Its a fun street turbo with great potiential that can get interesting to tap into. The best thing is that your a tuner who's willing to really get hands on with the tuning and modding and pushing the envelope with a given setup were as the majority of people who've owned and used the Evo316g always ended up giving up early before they were even close to realizing their setups true potiential which is when you start getting into the fun stuff. I have been running mines for 2 years, and it always responded well to my mods. I have yet to try it out on race gas with more timing and leaner afr's on the current mods list,(in profile) but Im sure I will be up there in the numbers like you.

I would be interested in seeing what you could do at the track and/or dyno with your setup.
I would also be very interested in seeing what kind of gains, changes the FP4R cams would do to your powerband; not that that is in my price range. I will just have to make best with these Brian Crower 272s, but If everything goes as planned I will get mines out to the track/dyno very soon to get some numbers in case your interested in what my setup can do as well.
 
Blackbullet,

Yeah, I'm curious to see how your car runs with all your new mods added on. Do you still have that EVOIII 02 housing for sale or is it gone already?

I actually have AMS about 4 miles from my house and could easily dyno the car. I might dyno it but it would be with the FP4R's on it as I want my car represented well. I would dyno it and then run it on the 1/4 mile track just to get it over with.

Right now the car is slowly being converted into a budget roadracer as that is where my heart is. Once I bought my STi I got addicted to the great handling. So of course the GSX wasn't up to snuff and had to be upgraded to match the STi's handling as there is no way the STi is seeing a track. Never ends man:D
 
Did you add the boost source to your compressor housing? I need to do that, or on the jpipe. What size thread is it?
 
Yeah, I added it. I used a 5/16" (.313") drill bit & a 1/8-27 NPT tap and went at it on the unused screw boss on the compressor housing. Then I used a smaller drill bit for the thru hole. Was real easy, just tap slow and when things get tight back it out here and there. I bought the brass 1/8-27 NPT barbed hose fitting from ACE Hardware.

On my stainless steel T28 j-pipe I had (2x) bungs welded in for temperature probes and a boost source but this time around I bought a painted j-pipe and just wanted to keep things simple and clean.
 
Did a little more tuning and tweaking. Replaced my 2.25" MAF pipe with a 3" Injen style. Feels better with the smaller pipe though at part throttle but I'm looking to reduce a little pressure loss in front of the compressor at higher rpms. The 3" Injen intake pipe is coming off, getting cut in half, ported & then shortened & rewelded and put back on the car. I like my parts to fit right and this one is a little off.

I also preloaded the 16g wastegate actuator housing with 2 washers per side about .170" thk. The actuator cracking pressure is about 10 psi, which sucks but the diaphram size is huge so the actual spring force is still quite high and helping to resist wastegate blow open.

Finally, I wire tied my old stock exhaust manifold heat shield over my FP race manifold since the intake temps were skyrocketing with it unshielded. Looks like I'll be swain tech coating it in the future.

On the tuning side I pulled another 2% fuel out of the 4500-8000 band. Narrow band 02 volts are right around .90 V. Ignition timing at high rpms is around 21*. I've run 23* in the past and the gains are minimal if nothing but the risk to the motor increases quite a bit. Coolant temp sensor is going intermittent, so its getting replaced in the future.

I use the DSMlink "estimate" numbers since they are fairly repeatable. Things like tire size, tire pressure, toe-in/toe out, vehicle weight, quantity of fuel, road incline/decline, wind gusts, etc. can throw it off but it is the "relative" values I use for tuning purposes. I always get the "You can't claim this kind of power without dynoing" statement. I agree, thats why all my posts are prefaced with "DSMlink estimated" power. I honestly care very little about going to a dyno or a 1/4 mile strip. The car itself is being SLOWLY setup up for roadraceing.

Anyhow, my latest round of tweaks has the 2nd gear power up at 444 h.p. crank and 44.0 lb/min max airflow. Its a beast on the top end now. I calculate the compressor should be able to kick out around 47 lb/min in 35* temps, so there is still some flow left in the turbo.

Next round of mods inlcude a bigger compressor outlet pipe & some mild porting of the compressor outlet elbow, then a bigger/ported EVOIII 02 housing and 3" downpipe, & finally some Kelford 272/272 cams.

I've done a little research on these Kelford 272 cams, and on the AMS cam shootout they made 41 w.h.p. MORE than the HKS 272 cams on an EVO. How they react on a turbo that is close to being maxxed I'm not sure.
 

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Did a little more tuning and tweaking. Replaced my 2.25" MAF pipe with a 3" Injen style. Feels better with the smaller pipe though at part throttle but I'm looking to reduce a little pressure loss in front of the compressor at higher rpms. The 3" Injen intake pipe is coming off, getting cut in half, ported & then shortened & rewelded and put back on the car. I like my parts to fit right and this one is a little off.

I also preloaded the 16g wastegate actuator housing with 2 washers per side about .170" thk. The actuator cracking pressure is about 10 psi, which sucks but the diaphram size is huge so the actual spring force is still quite high and helping to resist wastegate blow open.

Finally, I wire tied my old stock exhaust manifold heat shield over my FP race manifold since the intake temps were skyrocketing with it unshielded. Looks like I'll be swain tech coating it in the future.

On the tuning side I pulled another 2% fuel out of the 4500-8000 band. Narrow band 02 volts are right around .90 V. Ignition timing at high rpms is around 21*. I've run 23* in the past and the gains are minimal if nothing but the risk to the motor increases quite a bit. Coolant temp sensor is going intermittent, so its getting replaced in the future.

I use the DSMlink "estimate" numbers since they are fairly repeatable. Things like tire size, tire pressure, toe-in/toe out, vehicle weight, quantity of fuel, road incline/decline, wind gusts, etc. can throw it off but it is the "relative" values I use for tuning purposes. I always get the "You can't claim this kind of power without dynoing" statement. I agree, thats why all my posts are prefaced with "DSMlink estimated" power. I honestly care very little about going to a dyno or a 1/4 mile strip. The car itself is being SLOWLY setup up for roadraceing.

Anyhow, my latest round of tweaks has the 2nd gear power up at 444 h.p. crank and 44.0 lb/min max airflow. Its a beast on the top end now. I calculate the compressor should be able to kick out around 47 lb/min in 35* temps, so there is still some flow left in the turbo.

Next round of mods inlcude a bigger compressor outlet pipe & some mild porting of the compressor outlet elbow, then a bigger/ported EVOIII 02 housing and 3" downpipe, & finally some Kelford 272/272 cams.

I've done a little research on these Kelford 272 cams, and on the AMS cam shootout they made 41 w.h.p. MORE than the HKS 272 cams on an EVO. How they react on a turbo that is close to being maxxed I'm not sure.

Thats a lot of airflow its recording,from that 16g.^
Also, while your doing these logs you should have a friend shoot a quick little vid of your car so we can all see how it pulls for ourselves. LOL
I never put much thought into the intake pipe in front of the compressor, mines is only 2.5 but its ran cold air intake into the fenderwell were the stock smim used to be.
Im sure if it was like 3in all the way thru it would be a little better, but I will probably have that intake pipe on until I get a bigger turbo.

Do you think the Kelford cams would work out better than the FP4r's or are you just looking at price? I am not well read up on Kelford cams though. And also if your interesting in the evo 02 housing then pm me. When I get the time, I can send you some pics of it if you are in contemplation of buying it.
 
Yeah, I'm interested. I'll send you a PM later tonight or tomorrow morning.

The Kelford 272 cams crush the FP4R's, 498 h.p. v.s. 457 h.p. on a GT35 turbo at 22 psi on an EVO car based on AMS's cam shootout. Pricewise the Kelford's are $585 and the FP4R's are around $500. From what I've read they also have better response and low end driveability.

I'm trying to setup my Canon Powershot SD870 for video recording. I'll see if I can put together a 2nd gear WOT pull. Gonna be interesting doing it one handed but I don't need to shift thankfully. I'll probably keep it to 10 seconds or less since the file size is around 1mb per second of recording.
 
"Our goal with the FP-Big28 was similar to its FP-T28/28 predecessor� to create a fast spooling, bolt on turbo that got up and went. We wanted to give the FP-Big28 a little more "umph" than the T-28, but when we strapped one on a 2G AWD and took it to the track, the results knocked us on our ass. At 21psi, the FP-Big28 pulled our full weight 99 GSX to an [email protected]."

Quote from fp web site. I was looking into t28 vs 16g for my gsx automatic. I need something that makes good low end to help move its heft. Also keep the street manners in check. Im still kind of torn in between the two. Any one have any input from the auto tranny stand point.
 
The FP one you quoted will make more power than the T28 in this thread.

But still, Evo3 all day long. They've been proven again and again to be VERY strong , both in reliable and power.
 
The FP one you quoted will make more power than the T28 in this thread.

But still, Evo3 all day long. They've been proven again and again to be VERY strong , both in reliable and power.

I see. I did not read it through the first time. It also seems more cost effective with the 16g to even after install kit figured in. I guess I will wo that route then.
 
Did a little more tuning and tweaking. Replaced my 2.25" MAF pipe with a 3" Injen style. Feels better with the smaller pipe though at part throttle but I'm looking to reduce a little pressure loss in front of the compressor at higher rpms. The 3" Injen intake pipe is coming off, getting cut in half, ported & then shortened & rewelded and put back on the car. I like my parts to fit right and this one is a little off.

I also preloaded the 16g wastegate actuator housing with 2 washers per side about .170" thk. The actuator cracking pressure is about 10 psi, which sucks but the diaphram size is huge so the actual spring force is still quite high and helping to resist wastegate blow open.

Finally, I wire tied my old stock exhaust manifold heat shield over my FP race manifold since the intake temps were skyrocketing with it unshielded. Looks like I'll be swain tech coating it in the future.

On the tuning side I pulled another 2% fuel out of the 4500-8000 band. Narrow band 02 volts are right around .90 V. Ignition timing at high rpms is around 21*. I've run 23* in the past and the gains are minimal if nothing but the risk to the motor increases quite a bit. Coolant temp sensor is going intermittent, so its getting replaced in the future.

I use the DSMlink "estimate" numbers since they are fairly repeatable. Things like tire size, tire pressure, toe-in/toe out, vehicle weight, quantity of fuel, road incline/decline, wind gusts, etc. can throw it off but it is the "relative" values I use for tuning purposes. I always get the "You can't claim this kind of power without dynoing" statement. I agree, thats why all my posts are prefaced with "DSMlink estimated" power. I honestly care very little about going to a dyno or a 1/4 mile strip. The car itself is being SLOWLY setup up for roadraceing.

Anyhow, my latest round of tweaks has the 2nd gear power up at 444 h.p. crank and 44.0 lb/min max airflow. Its a beast on the top end now. I calculate the compressor should be able to kick out around 47 lb/min in 35* temps, so there is still some flow left in the turbo.

Next round of mods inlcude a bigger compressor outlet pipe & some mild porting of the compressor outlet elbow, then a bigger/ported EVOIII 02 housing and 3" downpipe, & finally some Kelford 272/272 cams.

I've done a little research on these Kelford 272 cams, and on the AMS cam shootout they made 41 w.h.p. MORE than the HKS 272 cams on an EVO. How they react on a turbo that is close to being maxxed I'm not sure.

What kind of boost were you running for your pulls?

PS: interested in selling thoses 264's i'm in the market to buy somes...

Let me know. :)
 
28 psi dropping to 22 psi at 7000 rpms. I'd have to try the new cams before I sold my current setup and for right now I'm gonna stay with what I've got. Tranny didn't like all the torque from the 16g and decided to eat itself.
 
I've been talking it over with the original tranny builder and he thinks its an exploded clutch disk on my ACT2100 clutch and not the tranny. Once I pull the motor & tranny I'll know more. This time around I'm pulling the motor and trans together in one piece.

Plans are to go to an 11 lb forged steel flywheel vs. my 14 lb lightened one, another ACT2100 clutch believe it or not, "removed" balance shaft using the modified stock shaft, and a Fisher harmonic damper. Then replace the oil pump case/gears, water pump, alternator, power steering pump, HKS carbon fiber timing belt, etc. Finally toss in the Kelford 272 cams with beehive springs and EVO retainers.

As it stands right now I'm placing more importance on longevity than outright power. Tranny will probably be upgraded again, this time going all out nothing left on the table.
It's definitely going to get a heat exchanger with a Tilton pump and integrated thermostat. I may go with a Quaiffe differential as I've gotten used to the agressive turn in of my Sti with its active diff.

Motor stays stock internally for now. Its been amazingly reliable up to now aside from some stretched stock head bolts a few years back. Its not getting upgraded till it tosses a rod or something as I can't stomach the costs involved with building that thing up for now while simultaneously building the rest of the braking, chassis, safety gear.
 
I've been talking it over with the original tranny builder and he thinks its an exploded clutch disk on my ACT2100 clutch and not the tranny. Once I pull the motor & tranny I'll know more. This time around I'm pulling the motor and trans together in one piece.

Plans are to go to an 11 lb forged steel flywheel vs. my 14 lb lightened one, another ACT2100 clutch believe it or not, "removed" balance shaft using the modified stock shaft, and a Fisher harmonic damper. Then replace the oil pump case/gears, water pump, alternator, power steering pump, HKS carbon fiber timing belt, etc. Finally toss in the Kelford 272 cams with beehive springs and EVO retainers.

As it stands right now I'm placing more importance on longevity than outright power. Tranny will probably be upgraded again, this time going all out nothing left on the table.
It's definitely going to get a heat exchanger with a Tilton pump and integrated thermostat. I may go with a Quaiffe differential as I've gotten used to the agressive turn in of my Sti with its active diff.

Motor stays stock internally for now. Its been amazingly reliable up to now aside from some stretched stock head bolts a few years back. Its not getting upgraded till it tosses a rod or something as I can't stomach the costs involved with building that thing up for now while simultaneously building the rest of the braking, chassis, safety gear.

Yea i hear you on the reliability and longevity thing over max power. Thats a lot of money with what you have planned on though. I was going to throw on a hx35 soon but changed my mind and will just run with the 16g a little longer as the car has been very reliable so far and is making good enough power now without me getting greedy and theres no reason to rush into something I cant handle income wise if I blow something. I need this car to hold up for a little still as I dont have another means of transportation yet. The only power mod this cars getting is jmf smim, and nothing further than that at least until I get another DD which wont be till summer. Even the stuff you just mentioned you want to do, thats a lot of money. And I hear you I do just little updates with the car at a time and then take breaks as I dont have money to do it all at once. It can get real expensive real fast to get your project ideal, especially with my low income and the fact Im still in school.

Why go with another 2100? Upgrade now while its out. I recently went 2600 as my 2100 was slipping badly on launches, especially at the track... And so I guess your not going to pick up the o2 housing anymore huh.
 
No, I won't be picking up the 02 housing. I've just had another major personal thing hit me yesterday. Right now the car is going to sit in storage till the summer. Its all cool though, car will sit for another day, no big hurry.
 
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