Evoiiigt Vs Evoiii

[4CTP]

Hello
Let me introduce myself. My name is Brian, I work for Four Corners Turbo Performance. This post is NOT a solicitation AT ALL for our business, as we are NOT registered vendors. This post is a defense of the EVOIIIGT turbo that a registered vendor has been attacking publicly.
I would like to publicly respond to the vendor's website, http://www.slowboyracing.com/evo3vsgt.htm

not by saying "That guy is an idiot" or "My turbo is good, you're wrong," but simply by posting data. Please don't post in this thread unless you have some data.

 

[4CTP]

SBR's site states:
We fear the Chinese version uses an inferior stainless in its composition (vs. inconel), but it will take time for the metallurgist to confirm our claims. The gram weight of the EVO III GT is 185 grams, and the MHI is 187 grams. This is interesting for a few reasons.

I don't have a scale, sorry! I will buy one in the immediate future (tomorrow) and post the results. Slow boy states that the GT wheel is lighter by two grams. We'll see.

 

[4CTP]

SBR's site states:
"I am by no means a metallurgist, but something can be said about the blade thickness of each turbine wheel. The EVO III GT turbine wheel is .040” in blade thickness, while the MHI is .020”. While this has performance implications, what type of metal is the EVO III GT made from that is twice as thick, but weighs less? Our argument states the metal used will not hold up to the heat and abuse of a typical DSM enthusiast."

Please see link below. This is a MHI td05h wheel-notice the caliper readout. PLEASE NOTE: These calipers are BRAND NEW, hours old.

http://home.ricochet.com/4ctpdotcom/MHIwheel.jpg

Please see the link below. This is an EVOIIIGT turbine wheel. Notice the caliper readout.


http://home.ricochet.com/4ctpdotcom/3gtwheel.jpg

The link below is a picture of the calipers if I put them on "hold." Notice the "h" in the lower left hand corner. If I wanted to make the wheel look bigger or smaller, I could dial in the size I wanted, press "hold" and the calipers would read the size it's holding.

http://home.ricochet.com/4ctpdotcom/calipers.jpg


The site's posted results are false. The EVOIIIGT and the MHI Td05h wheel are identical in size-the only variance you can get is where exactly you place the calipers, as the vanes on the turbine wheel are bent. I am unable to get SBR's result of .040" on the EVOIIIGT wheel.


PLEASE NOTE: if the links to the pictures are not up yet, sorry! I am in contact with a host that will post the pictures!


MORE TO FOLLOW

 

[tstkl]

"In closing, we feel genuinely bad that we sent an MHI turbo to China over 6 months ago to see if a less expensive turbo could be made and brought to market. When we learned of the quality and issues in manufacturing, we decided to pass on bringing these to our loyal DSM customers. We could not offer such an inferior product, for any price."

does this mean that this company takes responsibility for the creation of the evoIII gt?

 

[4CTP]

does this mean that this company takes responsibility for the creation of the evoIII gt?

Naah man, that's my whole point. The whole website is a lie. THE EVOIIIGT TURBO IS NOT FROM CHINA. SBR probably didn't send crap to any company in china, and if they did, it wasn't to the comany that makes the EVOIIIGT, because they ARE NOT IN CHINA!

 

[MackZ24]

This is quite interesting information (if correct of course). As mentioned previously, it's hard for people on this site to know whether they are being lied to, or being shown the truth. Even the color differences from Slowboy's article are not present. If you could post your own comparisons of the compressor wheels (which had very large differences in their article), journal and thurst bearings and the design of the turbine housing it would be very much appreciated.

 

[4CTP]

This is quite interesting information (if correct of course). As mentioned previously, it's hard for people on this site to know whether they are being lied to, or being shown the truth. Even the color differences from Slowboy's article are not present. If you could post your own comparisons of the compressor wheels (which had very large differences in their article), journal and thurst bearings and the design of the turbine housing it would be very much appreciated.

Man, don't even get me started on the color differences! Look at the picture on SBR's site, the one with the three c-wheels....THEY ARE SHINING A LIGHT ON THE GT WHEEL to make it look different...
I'm going to do a step by step comparison, for sure. That whole site is TOTALLY FALSE, and I'm going to show it....

 

[4CTP]

This is quite interesting information (if correct of course). As mentioned previously, it's hard for people on this site to know whether they are being lied to, or being shown the truth. Even the color differences from Slowboy's article are not present. If you could post your own comparisons of the compressor wheels (which had very large differences in their article), journal and thurst bearings and the design of the turbine housing it would be very much appreciated.

Oh yeah, did you check out the thrust bearing picture on the SBR site? BOTH PARTS have MHI marks on them...come on!

 

[sting0004]

I think its awesome what your doing but I would refrain from calling another vender's sites or findings garbage and such; just say false or incorrect. I think this thread will last longer and stay civil if you choose better wording. Sorry if I sound like a fruitcake, I just want to see this thread last long enough for you to post your full comparison. Thanks alot, and I look forward to your findings. -Matt

 

[4CTP]

I think its awesome what your doing but I would refrain from calling another vender's sites or findings garbage and such; just say false or incorrect. I think this thread will last longer and stay civil if you choose better wording. Sorry if I sound like a fruitcake, I just want to see this thread last long enough for you to post your full comparison. Thanks alot, and I look forward to your findings. -Matt

Yeah, your right man. I just get mad every time I get an email that says "You should be ashamed of yourself for selling cheap chinese knock off turbos." and I KNOW it's because of that site....point well taken man.

 

[4CTP]

Another thing about said website-there is a link where you can track a package that the company obviously sent to China in September of 2004. Now, I'm no genious, but doesn't SBR sell their own manifold right now? Isnt' that manifold made just for SBR? I wonder, is that manifold made in the good ol' USA, or in that location in China where supposedly SBR sent a turbo? My point-did SBR send a manifold, perhaps the EVOIII manifold, to china to get it made there, and then just say they sent a turbo after the fact? I've got no proof of this at all, but from what I KNOW about the website and what I will prove to be true about the website, it seems as though almost ALL of the data presented is false, and perhaps the tracking number is just another piece of deliberately false information......
also, did the army put a tracking implant in my arm and call it the antrhax vaccine? I'll never know...

 

[mrb1]

I would agree with 4CTP's measurments on the turbine wheel. Also I weighed the compressor wheel and it weighs 56grams.

My point is I don't necessarily dispute that a turbo was sent to China and a sample came back that he was not happy with. Fair enough. That's none of my business.

However the main point here is the EVOIII GT turbo DOES NOT COME FROM THE COMPANY he sent his original turbo to be cloned.

 

[red91gst]

Another thing about said website-there is a link where you can track a package that the company obviously sent to China in September of 2004. Now, I'm no genious, but doesn't SBR sell their own manifold right now? Isnt' that manifold made just for SBR? I wonder, is that manifold made in the good ol' USA, or in that location in China where supposedly SBR sent a turbo? My point-did SBR send a manifold, perhaps the EVOIII manifold, to china to get it made there, and then just say they sent a turbo after the fact? I've got no proof of this at all, but from what I KNOW about the website and what I will prove to be true about the website, it seems as though almost ALL of the data presented is false, and perhaps the tracking number is just another piece of deliberately false information......
also, did the army put a tracking implant in my arm and call it the antrhax vaccine? I'll never know...

The information on the website is unbiased and true, I apologize if the truth hurt your turbo sales and this post is a retaliation to this. There was no light shining or voodoo magic with our pictures or our measurments.

These facts are the least important to me, please explain why the design of the volute of the turbine housing was moved. This, as I'm sure you know, plays a huge part in the efficiency of any turbocharger.

Our manifolds are made no where near China .

Nate
SBR

This member also posted this in another thread:

here's my wet blanket post: ball bearing units are NOT durable at all, and are not rebuildable. I sell turbos, and once your ball bearing turbo gets overboosted and overheats, it's OVER......

This sheds some light on your wealth of turbo knowledge.

 

[red91gst]

Oh yeah, did you check out the thrust bearing picture on the SBR site? BOTH PARTS have MHI marks on them...come on!

Thats because the copying China company stamped the same numbers on the bearing, you can obvioulsy see the GT China Turbo is of a different material, almost a coated metal.

Nate
SBR

 

[ShapeGSX]

Naah man, that's my whole point. The whole website is a lie. THE EVOIIIGT TURBO IS NOT FROM CHINA.

So where exactly is it from? Mars? You obviously have the answers! Let us know. Or is it a secret?

 

[MackZ24]

I suppose it's possible that there are two companies making clones of the EVO3, although highly unlikely. Either way, another company's alternate findings with such differing results is defintely intriguing whether you believe the findings or not. For the sake of argument it would still be nice to have 4CTP post his pictures and results of differences in the other compared areas.

 

[4CTP]

I suppose it's possible that there are two companies making clones of the EVO3, although highly unlikely. Either way, another company's alternate findings with such differing results is defintely intriguing whether you believe the findings or not. For the sake of argument it would still be nice to have 4CTP post his pictures and results of differences in the other compared areas.

ACTUALLY, there is another company making a clone of the EVOIII. They don't call it a EVOIII GT, just a regular EVOIII. SAS auto chrome sells these BUT they don't really look like the EVOIII or the GT at all.

 

[4CTP]

....This sheds some light on your wealth of turbo knowledge.

That's kind of the whole unethical part of this-your company has a lot of knowledge when it comes to turbos, and some of the stuff you posted is just plain deceptive. Here's something that most people that know a little about turbos know: when you balance a turbine wheel, you take material off of it a little at a time. That's just how you do it. Every wheel is basically different, so they all have to be balanced one at a time, by human hands. This is one of the reasons turbos cost so much.

Now, if I took two turbine wheels and shafts, that have been seperately balanced, it would almost be impossible for them to weigh the same amount. The balancer would have taken different amounts off different wheels, and they would NOT be the same weight. In fact, if they WERE the same weight, it would be a coincidence.

There's no way you all don't know this fact, but on your website, you make it seem like it's a disaster that the two wheels weigh different amounts:

"The gram weight of the EVO III GT is 185 grams, and the MHI is 187 grams. This is interesting for a few reasons."

If you look at your OWN SITE'S pictures, you can see that different amounts of material have been taken off the two wheels on the turbine side. There is NO WAY your company doesn't know this fact, but again, you present the data like it's proof the GT turbo is no good. Why would you do this? To deliberately deceive? I'm going to try and keep this thread as clean as possible, but I don't know why your company posted all of this false information.

 

[Zex4g63]

So where exactly is it from? Mars? You obviously have the answers! Let us know. Or is it a secret?

Still waiting for an answer.............

 

[red91gst]

That's kind of the whole unethical part of this-your company has a lot of knowledge when it comes to turbos, and some of the stuff you posted is just plain deceptive. Here's something that most people that know a little about turbos know: when you balance a turbine wheel, you take material off of it a little at a time. That's just how you do it. Every wheel is basically different, so they all have to be balanced one at a time, by human hands. This is one of the reasons turbos cost so much.

Now, if I took two turbine wheels and shafts, that have been seperately balanced, it would almost be impossible for them to weigh the same amount. The balancer would have taken different amounts off different wheels, and they would NOT be the same weight. In fact, if they WERE the same weight, it would be a coincidence.

There's no way you all don't know this fact, but on your website, you make it seem like it's a disaster that the two wheels weigh different amounts:

"The gram weight of the EVO III GT is 185 grams, and the MHI is 187 grams. This is interesting for a few reasons."

If you look at your OWN SITE'S pictures, you can see that different amounts of material have been taken off the two wheels on the turbine side. There is NO WAY your company doesn't know this fact, but again, you present the data like it's proof the GT turbo is no good. Why would you do this? To deliberately deceive? I'm going to try and keep this thread as clean as possible, but I don't know why your company posted all of this false information.

I will ask this question yet again:

If you talk so highly of this turbo then why is the volute changed in the GT turbo? This is personally my biggest concern with this thing and the main reason I dont like it.

Take a close look at the way the material was taken of the GT turbo compared to the MHI. It defintely looks like someone did it by hand, primitive hands. The quality is horrible, the materials are sub-par, and the craftsmanship is no where near that of an MHI unit.

Nate
SBR

 

[4CTP]

I will ask this question yet again:

If you talk so highly of this turbo then why is the volute changed in the GT turbo? This is personally my biggest concern with this thing and the main reason I dont like it.

Take a close look at the way the material was taken of the GT turbo compared to the MHI. It defintely looks like someone did it by hand, primitive hands. The quality is horrible, the materials are sub-par, and the craftsmanship is no where near that of an MHI unit.

Nate
SBR

The craftsmanship wasn't anywhere near that of a MHI unit? Come on! I'm going to post a link in this reply in about five minutes that shows the "craftsmanship" of the MHI unit. MHI doesn't even try that hard on their turbos. Ever seen an old 14b, a new one? The wastegate flapper port is total garbage.
Here's a link to a picture of a MHI housing. Notice, the surfaces are neat and machined, BUT the surrounding areas are not really finished-they just left the "lip" to interfere with any gasket surface that you may have.

http://home.ricochet.com/4ctpdotcom/Bhouse.jpg

now, here's the EVOIIIGT housing, same spot. Notice, the surrounding areas are pretty looking, flat with no lips or excessive surfaces.

http://home.ricochet.com/4ctpdotcom/BGThouse.jpg

this means one of two things: The GT housing was made with more care and precision OR the machinery that was used to make the GT housing is either more precise or newer than the machinery used to make the MHI units.


Here's my question for you, NATE, why is it that every 2 out of 10 MHI turbos have pretty excessive shaft play from the factory? Is it because of craftsmanship? I've taken MHI turbos out of the box to spot check them, and found some pretty scary stuff on new units. Their machine work on their housings is pretty horrible sometimes. I know it's not good for business for you to admit it, but you've probably gotten emails from customers freaked out about their new MHI turbos' shaft play. I know I have.

While I have you, NATE, awnser this question: why did the origional SBR evoIIIvsGT site change so much? The first version looked as though it was written by a chinese scientist. A lot has changed since you posted that origional site-why? Did it seem too ridiculous, even to you all?

 

[red91gst]

The craftsmanship wasn't anywhere near that of a MHI unit? Come on! I'm going to post a link in this reply in about five minutes that shows the "craftsmanship" of the MHI unit. MHI doesn't even try that hard on their turbos. Ever seen an old 14b, a new one? The wastegate flapper port is total garbage.

Here's my question for you, NATE, why is it that every 2 out of 10 MHI turbos have pretty excessive shaft play from the factory? Is it because of craftsmanship? I've taken MHI turbos out of the box to spot check them, and found some pretty scary stuff on new units. Their machine work on their housings is pretty horrible sometimes. I know it's not good for business for you to admit it, but you've probably gotten emails from customers freaked out about their new MHI turbos' shaft play. I know I have.

While I have you, NATE, awnser this question: why did the origional SBR evoIIIvsGT site change so much? The first version looked as though it was written by a chinese scientist. A lot has changed since you posted that origional site-why? Did it seem too ridiculous, even to you all?

I'm not sure where you buy your MHI units or which ones you have seen, but every MHI turbo that comes through here looks great, and I think every dsmer on this board who has every bought a new MHI turbo, for the most part, will agree they are second to none. I've never had a customer email me about excessive shaft play with a new turbo.

The page has changed, as well as the rest of the site. We are constantly updating everything. The EVO vs. GT site was updated for appearance purposes, and to add some more pictures. None of the original info has changed and it will not change from here out.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to bash SBR and our write up, or the need to down the MHI turbos. We live in a world where the parts we use are proven performers, and all will agree MHI has done this, where these GT pieces have not.

So for myself, and all dsmers, please stop the pity claims that have no substance, and dont in any way associate your GT turbo with an EVO III.

It is decieving and just plain wrong.

Nate
SBR

 

[4CTP]

I will ask this question yet again:

If you talk so highly of this turbo then why is the volute changed in the GT turbo? This is personally my biggest concern with this thing and the main reason I dont like it.

I will ask this question yet again:


Take a close look at the way the material was taken of the GT turbo compared to the MHI. It defintely looks like someone did it by hand, primitive hands. The quality is horrible, the materials are sub-par, and the craftsmanship is no where near that of an MHI unit.

Nate
I have NO IDEA where you got your turbo from, but every time i tear one down, it looks completely different that the one on your site. Strange.....

The volute, yes yes...let's look at the volute on the EVOIIIGT turbo

http://home.ricochet.com/4ctpdotcom/volute.jpg

wait a minute! Those man made marks have dissapeared! I must have buffed them out or something...or is the opposite true? Did the same people who put false measurements, deceptive weights, and fake pictures up DOCTOR the EVOIIIGT housing? No, it can't be true! I am sure that's not the case at all....


in fact, if you check out the slow boy picture of the volutes, it's pretty obvious that someone used photoshop to blend the two pictures together....what the? no, it was probably a miracle that two housings occupied the same space at the same time, and SBR was there to capture the magic! You guys ROCK. Check it out

http://home.ricochet.com/4ctpdotcom/miracle.jpg

here, I did some photoshop. Here's PROOF that these turbos DID NOT COME FROM CHINA!

http://home.ricochet.com/4ctpdotcom/miracle2.jpg

now, in all of these pictures of the bearing housing and turbine housing, you can tell the difference between the GT housing and the MHI housing because the MHI housing is of a lighter color, and the GT housing is much darker.

 

[ShapeGSX]

here, I did some photoshop. Here's PROOF that these turbos DID NOT COME FROM CHINA!

http://home.ricochet.com/4ctpdotcom/miracle2.jpg

Well the one on the right is the MHI version, so you are right. It isn't made in China.

So, ebay man, why not tell us where the "GT" turbo does come from, if not China?

Last I heard, the Keebler Elves were working on a new fudge stripe turbo! These martians has better not copy that one. You saw what the elves in The Lord of The Rings can do! They'll stick an arrow in your ass (or whatever martians have) from a mile away!

 

[4CTP]

Well the one on the right is the MHI version, so you are right. It isn't made in China.

So, ebay man, why not tell us where the "GT" turbo does come from, if not China?

Last I heard, the Keebler Elves were working on a new fudge stripe turbo! These martians has better not copy that one. You saw what the elves in The Lord of The Rings can do! They'll stick an arrow in your ass (or whatever martians have) from a mile away!

hey shape, I have a riddle for you: where is the MHI's bearing housing made in? Here's a hint: doesn't begin in a J and end in a "apan"...