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2G Car still won’t start

98gstJames

Proven Member
89
16
May 25, 2022
Virginia
Alright so I’ve been trying to get my car to start and I’ve done a lot, what does it sound like my car is missing now? I’ll add a video, I’m just lost

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waltah

Proven Member
369
153
Mar 2, 2011
fairfield, Virginia
I wouldn’t have been able to do it without your guys help, I just need to get it running good now, I’ve got some issues with fuel, when I press the gas it’s like it’s bogging but it stays steady at about 2200 rpm but I did notice this yesterday, that’s the line coming from the water pump, I’m not sure if this connects to my fuel seeming issue.

Congratulations! My guess is you've got two or three more issues before it runs smoothly but you'll get 'er done.

You've got to have a good cooling system first so replace that O-ring. Make sure the new one fits correctly: I've seen claimed replacement O-rings in that job that were too small cross section so they didn't actually seal the joint and you get a small 'forever' leak there. That's bad enough but you can wind up getting air in the system which will lead to overheating ...

The bogging you describe can be anything -- not necessarily fuel. If you're saying it idles at 2200 and with the knowledge of what else was wrong (the speaker wire run to the battery says a lot) I would start at the very beginning with adjustment of the throttle body. There are three adjustments that should be done in a certain order and are often -- make that 'usually' -- messed up on cars that show up on DSMT

There are likely to be other things wrong but until the TB adjustments are correct it's a waste of time to go looking for them -- if you get a smooth idle when warm just doing adjustments you don't need to worry about compression, for example. Sure, you might do the test -- it'll give you an idea when major work might be needed -- but for now (while trying to make it driveable) you could mark that down on your list of 'do this later.'

The things to adjust on the TB are the Throttle Stop Screw, the Closed Throttle Position Switch, and the Basic Idle Speed Screw. I'll post the how-to on those in the next day or so -- or someone else may get there first or have a link. The procedures in the Service Manual for the CTPS doesn't always work well for older cars though -- there's a better way for us'uns.

The first step should be to inspect the inside of the TB for 'clean enough to work.' A little black is fine but caked deposits need to be cleaned out before doing the other stuff. This can be done in the car but is easier to do well if you remove the thing, added advantage you can do the other adjustments more easily with it off. Be ready to plug the coolant hoses to the Idle Speed Control Valve when you take them off and have on hand the gasket between the TB and plenum. That's a very frequent place for air leaks so not bad to take apart, examine, and put back with a new gasket.

My 95 GS-T came 8 months ago -- I was able to drive it home. Within a month, though I had a list of 60-some issues. Most are now crossed off but in the last three weeks I've picked up three more --- front windshield washers are clogged, there's a new airbag (SRS) warning light, and one of the front wipers came loose on its hub in a downpour causing the other wiper to jam. In my opinion these cars need to be owned by someone with mechanical skills.

EDIT: rereading your last post I see that you fixed the 'bogging' and it now revs but idle isn't good.

The idle RPM should be ~850. If it's much higher than that then look for air leaks. Get a can of 'starting fluid' and spray here and there around the intake plumbing, all the vacuum hoses, joint between intake manifold and head, TB to plenum joint, etc. If it suddenly starts sucking fuel along with air it'll likely rev up some and smooth out for a few seconds and whatever you just sprayed has an air leak. Fix it!

The stuff is highly flammable so do this outside rather than in garage.

If the idle speed is high but you do not find an air leak, go ahead as above because probably the high idle is the result of the prior owner cranking screws on the throttle body without knowing how. It will never run right until you fix that.

When your foot is off the throttle the ECU must control the RPM.

If the idle ia around 850 then with it warmed up and no accessories on, switch on the headlamps on high beam. Switch them on/off a few times. There should be hardly any change of RPM on the tach -- a bare flick. The engine note will get a bit deeper but the ECU is warned when the alternator sees a heavy load and it makes a standard adjustment of the Idle Speed Control Valve before the engine slows down.

If this works okay -- Idle RPM is about right and ECU/ISCV is controlling it -- then I would skip doing the throttle body work above. If the idle is rough, do a compression test. You can borrow the tool at any auto parts store and it's needed rarely enough that that's the way to get it.
 
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Linuxcnc69

Probationary Member
42
21
Jul 26, 2022
Pachuta, Mississippi
Wow, congratulations on getting it to start! As a certified mechanic I gotta say you got a crash course in fixing someone else's hack job. A suggestion is check every bit of the engine wiring for hidden stupidity like the "speaker wire patch" . The harnesses in these cars tend to dry and crack like you discovered on the injector plugs.
As mentioned before, stick to a task till your confident its done. Check all connections on the engine harness then move to the next. Saves going bald! As far as the coils check the horns where the plug wires go in , they sometimes crack and leak spark.
As far as the mods are concerned, personally I make a list of all previous upgrades then research what the supporting mods for each are cause many times these things are overlooked. Bigger turbo requires more fuel delivery from pump and injectors for example. Your gonna need to finish the upgrades the previous owner couldn't afford or had no clue about. Tuning is one of the last things but your gonna love that part. Long drives watching logs and hard throttle pulls! Thats my favorite part! But as stated before, stick to a path, be patient and follow thru and your gonna have a blast!
 

98gstJames

Proven Member
89
16
May 25, 2022
Virginia
Got bad news… not so sure what it is but I hope it’s not what I think. So I finally got the o ring for my car and it put it on, put the thermostat housing on and then I put coolant in the car, plugged my obd2 in to see that the 02 sensor was working and it was, then I went to start the car, it wouldn’t start. I didn’t try to start it anymore bc I was afraid, so I then thought I should pull the plugs to look at them and so I did and when I pulled them out there was coolant on the plugs…I looked down in the cylinders and there is a puddle of coolant in each of them, only way I know this can happen is a blown head gasket but when I pulled the dipstick out there isn’t any coolant mixed w the oil, so I’m confused. Either way it’s a shitty time it seems. It’ll be another thing on the list but I won’t let this stop me either for sure, I can’t give up on the dsm.
 

TK's9d2TSi

Supporting Member
6,454
3,399
Sep 11, 2017
Cincinnati, Ohio
Got bad news… not so sure what it is but I hope it’s not what I think. So I finally got the o ring for my car and it put it on, put the thermostat housing on and then I put coolant in the car, plugged my obd2 in to see that the 02 sensor was working and it was, then I went to start the car, it wouldn’t start. I didn’t try to start it anymore bc I was afraid, so I then thought I should pull the plugs to look at them and so I did and when I pulled them out there was coolant on the plugs…I looked down in the cylinders and there is a puddle of coolant in each of them, only way I know this can happen is a blown head gasket but when I pulled the dipstick out there isn’t any coolant mixed w the oil, so I’m confused. Either way it’s a shitty time it seems. It’ll be another thing on the list but I won’t let this stop me either for sure, I can’t give up on the dsm.
Either do a leak down test with the coolant cap off or pressure test coolant system with plugs out. Either will confirm what you may already know.
 

TK's9d2TSi

Supporting Member
6,454
3,399
Sep 11, 2017
Cincinnati, Ohio
Could it be a blown head gasket? Or is there another way coolant can get in the cylinders? Also I’ll have to wait on the leak down test rn I don’t have the tools to do it.
Possible. Here are other ways coolant can enter.
Leaking fiav gasket
Cracked head (unlikely but possible)
Cracked block (unlikely but possible)
If it’s in all 4 cylinders and out of the blue, I would check fiav gasket first.
You can also looping the coolant hoses to the fiav so no coolant passes through it to eliminate this.
 
Last edited:

98gstJames

Proven Member
89
16
May 25, 2022
Virginia
Possible. Here are other ways coolant can enter.
Leaking fiav gasket
Cracked head (unlikely but possible)
Cracked block (unlikely but possible)
If it’s in all 4 cylinders and out of the blue, I would check fiav gasket first.
You can also looping the coolant hoses to the fiav so no coolant passes through it to eliminate this.
What is the fiav gasket and where is it located? I wanted to do a compression test on it but I was going to after I had no leaks but the coolant in the cylinders kinda stopped me from trying to start it anymore to do a compression test.
 

TK's9d2TSi

Supporting Member
6,454
3,399
Sep 11, 2017
Cincinnati, Ohio
What is the fiav gasket and where is it located? I wanted to do a compression test on it but I was going to after I had no leaks but the coolant in the cylinders kinda stopped me from trying to start it anymore to do a compression test.
FIAV fast idle air valve is bolted under the throttle body and has two coolant lines. It allows more air to bypass the throttle body when the car/coolant is cold. Once it warms up, it fully closes the bypass. There is a gasket between the fiav and throttle body. Again, you can loop the lines to eliminate this as your coolant leak

@98gstJames this is a 1g tb & fiav. Green is the coolant passage and the other holes are air passages.
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waltah

Proven Member
369
153
Mar 2, 2011
fairfield, Virginia
Got bad news… not so sure what it is but I hope it’s not what I think. So I finally got the o ring for my car and it put it on, put the thermostat housing on and then I put coolant in the car, plugged my obd2 in to see that the 02 sensor was working and it was, then I went to start the car, it wouldn’t start. I didn’t try to start it anymore bc I was afraid, so I then thought I should pull the plugs to look at them and so I did and when I pulled them out there was coolant on the plugs…I looked down in the cylinders and there is a puddle of coolant in each of them, only way I know this can happen is a blown head gasket but when I pulled the dipstick out there isn’t any coolant mixed w the oil, so I’m confused. Either way it’s a shitty time it seems. It’ll be another thing on the list but I won’t let this stop me either for sure, I can’t give up on the dsm.

For water in all the cylinders the FIAV (= Idle Speed Control Valve) gasket is indeed the best bet. It's a complicated molded rubber thing that fits in the grooves on the TB and if an old one is reused and doesn't fit right or if it's left out, you get a leak. Coolant circulates through the ISCV to prevent icing on damp mornings after a cold night -- one of the frequent problems of engines with a carburetor.

I've been tempted to try replacing an ISCV without removing the TB. While in theory this would be possible, the challenge of getting that gasket in the right place without being able to see it kept me from trying -- and now I know why. So ... thanks!

First thing would be to get the fluid out of the cylinders. I'd probably do it with a shop vac but others may have better ideas. If you crank an engine with a liquid in a cylinder there's a real risk of breaking something. After clearing the liquid, turn the engine over by hand just to be double sure.

Then I would follow the other suggestion to use a loop of hose to connect between the supply and return nipples on the engine so the coolant doesn't go through the ISCV. Then get the engine running again and do other tests.

What probably happened is you ran the engine long enough to build up some pressure in the cooling system. Then when it stopped, coolant was forced through some leak into the intake or cylinders. I can only think of the two possibilities -- lots of head gasket leaks or a leak into the TB and then through the intake into the cylinders. The question is just what's leaking and getting the engine just a little warm again with the ISC passage bypassed should answer that.

Starting up with the radiator cap loosened and then removing it for a moment once started will give you bubbles of exhaust gas if there's a head gasket leak.

And of course you've found another problem with your car's idle: Coolant leaking into the cylinders. Try to think of this as unexpectedly rapid diagnostic progress.

.
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,130
2,693
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
We've been chasing this for awhile now. Refresh our memories. This car was running? You did not overheat it severely?
We've given you the tools to eliminate some suspects. All 4 cylinders? Not likely a head gasket unless you severely overheated it to the point where it died. If you choose to loop the coolant lines you can just turn the car over with no spark plugs in it to blow the coolant out. Pressurize the coolant system and peek in the cylinders. If a leak doesn't present itself I would say fiav is suspect.
 

waltah

Proven Member
369
153
Mar 2, 2011
fairfield, Virginia
FIAV fast idle air valve ... allows more air to bypass the throttle body when the car/coolant is cold. Once it warms up, it fully closes the bypass.
That's not entirely right. FIAV/ISCV does give another route for intake air which is under ECU control. The 'fast idle' function --- extra air to give the power to allow the engine to run when it's very cold and idling -- is one of its jobs. It also opens when the driver takes his foot off the accelerator causing the throttle plate to slam shut, admitting enough air to let the engine decelerate to idle speed over a couple of seconds rather than likely stalling -- the 'dashpot function.'

And it also manages the idle speed constantly when the throttle is closed. The standard warm idle for our 2G cars is 850, wired in to the ECU. When the A/C kicks on or a load comes on the alternator or the power steering pump is delivering pressure the ECU is warned and makes an instant correction to the ISCV setting so that the engine speed doesn't dip perceptibly.

For the A/C it speeds up the idle by 100 RPM --- the 'idle up' function -- to improve A/C performance.

I don't think the valve is ever supposed to be completely closed. On 1G cars broken valve pintles are pretty common and the only way I can think of that happening is the valve was trying to keep going past '0' open. The spec for the Expo LRV engines is 2 - 20 steps open when idling without accessory load.
 

98gstJames

Proven Member
89
16
May 25, 2022
Virginia
So I got the coolant out and did a compression test and cylinder #4 tested at 90 psi,# 3 at 90 psi, #2 at 120 psi and # 1 at 150 psi. Am I correct it’s a head gasket along with the possibility of the fiav gasket?
 

Dericsh

Supporting Member
1,276
515
Nov 25, 2002
Pearl River, Louisiana
So I got the coolant out and did a compression test and cylinder #4 tested at 90 psi,# 3 at 90 psi, #2 at 120 psi and # 1 at 150 psi. Am I correct it’s a head gasket along with the possibility of the fiav gasket?
You need to do a leakdown test to pinpoint the cause of the failed compression test. I’d do this with a coolant funnel attached so you can look for bubbles leaking into the cooling system, if that’s the problem.
 

TK's9d2TSi

Supporting Member
6,454
3,399
Sep 11, 2017
Cincinnati, Ohio
That's not entirely right. FIAV/ISCV does give another route for intake air which is under ECU control. The 'fast idle' function --- extra air to give the power to allow the engine to run when it's very cold and idling -- is one of its jobs. It also opens when the driver takes his foot off the accelerator causing the throttle plate to slam shut, admitting enough air to let the engine decelerate to idle speed over a couple of seconds rather than likely stalling -- the 'dashpot function.'

And it also manages the idle speed constantly when the throttle is closed. The standard warm idle for our 2G cars is 850, wired in to the ECU. When the A/C kicks on or a load comes on the alternator or the power steering pump is delivering pressure the ECU is warned and makes an instant correction to the ISCV setting so that the engine speed doesn't dip perceptibly.

For the A/C it speeds up the idle by 100 RPM --- the 'idle up' function -- to improve A/C performance.

I don't think the valve is ever supposed to be completely closed. On 1G cars broken valve pintles are pretty common and the only way I can think of that happening is the valve was trying to keep going past '0' open. The spec for the Expo LRV engines is 2 - 20 steps open when idling without accessory load.
You’re confusing fiav and isc. A proper functioning fiav will completely close when coolant temp reaches a certain temp and is no way controlled by the ecu.
 

98gstJames

Proven Member
89
16
May 25, 2022
Virginia
We've been chasing this for awhile now. Refresh our memories. This car was running? You did not overheat it severely?
We've given you the tools to eliminate some suspects. All 4 cylinders? Not likely a head gasket unless you severely overheated it to the point where it died. If you choose to loop the coolant lines you can just turn the car over with no spark plugs in it to blow the coolant out. Pressurize the coolant system and peek in the cylinders. If a leak doesn't present itself I would say fiav is suspect.
Yes the car was running before, I’m almost certain I didn’t overheat it but I’m not 100% sure on it bc I didn’t sit there and rev on it or anything like that, alright so basically by closing the loop that is to test the fiav gasket?
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,130
2,693
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
Yes the car was running before, I’m almost certain I didn’t overheat it but I’m not 100% sure on it bc I didn’t sit there and rev on it or anything like that, alright so basically by closing the loop that is to test the fiav gasket?
Yes. No coolant will flow through the fiav if you loop the lines.
 

Chri_Evocoupe

Proven Member
38
14
Jun 19, 2022
FAJARDO, Puerto_Rico
Alright I’ll do that then unless I have other issues that are related to the coolant, does the compression test I did give any answers?
The compression are to low the average are 178 PSI
Do the wet test too, drop a bid oil on the cylinder and do the compression test again, if the compression go up you have a bad piston rings
 

steve

DSM Wiseman
14,596
1,475
Feb 3, 2002
Boulder, Colorado
FIAV/ISCV does give another route for intake air which is under ECU control. The 'fast idle' function --- extra air to give the power to allow the engine to run when it's very cold and idling -- is one of its jobs. It also opens when the driver takes his foot off the accelerator causing the throttle plate to slam shut, admitting enough air to let the engine decelerate to idle speed over a couple of seconds rather than likely stalling -- the 'dashpot function.'
As mentioned the FIAV and the ISC/IAC are two different things. The FIAV is 100% mechanical based on coolant temps. If you block off the coolant feed to the TB you need to block off the FIAV with a plate or by winding the valve in to block the airflow.

The ISC/IAC is 100% ECU controlled to manage the idle speed and emulate a dashpot.

Coolant isn't going to leak from the ISC/IAC, it can leak INTO it like it can leak into the bypass channel from the FIAV when this gasket fails .

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98gstJames

Proven Member
89
16
May 25, 2022
Virginia
As mentioned the FIAV and the ISC/IAC are two different things. The FIAV is 100% mechanical based on coolant temps. If you block off the coolant feed to the TB you need to block off the FIAV with a plate or by winding the valve in to block the airflow.

The ISC/IAC is 100% ECU controlled to manage the idle speed and emulate a dashpot.

Coolant isn't going to leak from the ISC/IAC, it can leak INTO it like it can leak into the bypass channel from the FIAV when this gasket fails .

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So if the coolant can leak into the ISC/IAC then into the fiav does it then leak into the cylinders? Should I be getting a new head gasket because of the compression reading?
 

TK's9d2TSi

Supporting Member
6,454
3,399
Sep 11, 2017
Cincinnati, Ohio
Coolant will make its way into the intake manifold if that gasket is leaking since it shares the same air passage as the isc.

You’ll need to further diagnose why you have low compression in the two cylinders. As previously mentioned, add a cap full of oil to those cylinders and do another compression test. This will tell you if it’s the piston rings since the oil will help seal the piston rings. If that doesn’t bump up compression, you’ll want to do a leak down test. This will tell you where compression is leaking.

To do a leak down test, put that cylinder to tdc with oil cap, dip stick and coolant cap off. Once you start adding air, listen to see where it’s leaking from. Exhaust, oil cap, dip stick and check for bubbles in coolant. Look up leak down test on YT.

Leaking from
Exhaust = exhaust valves
Oil cap = intake valves
Dipstick = piston rings
Coolant = head gasket
 

steve

DSM Wiseman
14,596
1,475
Feb 3, 2002
Boulder, Colorado
So if the coolant can leak into the ISC/IAC then into the fiav does it then leak into the cylinders?

Tony mentioned it. Once that gasket fails you're filling the TB with coolant via it's bypass air channels. Any vacuum in the intake manifold will draw it from the TB into the manifold and from there into the cylinders.

This is just a possibility not proof. You reported coolant in your cylinders and you need to track the source down.

While the plugs are out you can clear the cylinders by cranking it or get a wet/dry vacuum. It might time for new plugs too if they are coolant fouled.

Since you were able to see that the O2 worked, what is the ECT reading?
 

98gstJames

Proven Member
89
16
May 25, 2022
Virginia
Tony mentioned it. Once that gasket fails you're filling the TB with coolant via it's bypass air channels. Any vacuum in the intake manifold will draw it from the TD into the manifold and from there into the cylinders.

This is just a possibility not proof. You reported coolant in your cylinders and you need to track the source down.

While the plugs are out you can clear the cylinders by cranking it or get a wet/dry vacuum. It might time for new plugs too if they are coolant fouled.

Since you were able to see that the O2 worked, what is the ECT reading?
What is the td?

Also I didn’t look at the ECT reading, I just looked to see that the 02 sensor said available/not completed instead of not available/not completed so there I just said it checked out.

I also did the compression test again on cylinder #4 and #3 with a cap of oil on the piston heads and on #4 it jumped from the original 90 to 100, and #3 went from the original, 90 just to about 93, and I’m almost positive I have no bent valves or anything bc I haven’t heard any funky noises from the engine and I checked the engine smoothness when I did timing and everything was smooth as butter, so I don’t think I have bent valves just on that info.

So that tracks me down to head gasket along with the fiav gasket. I’m gonna pull the head apart whenever I get the extra money for the head gasket kit, I’ll inspect the internals on the head then along with cleaning the piston heads and looking in the cylinder walls for scaring and put a new timing belt, pulleys and tensioner while I’m at it, I have new cam pulleys that I’m also going to put on. I’m gonna pull apart the tb and look for buildup and clean where is necessary.

I also have a hole in my radiator that I just put some jb weld over the hole just for now, but I’ll get a new radiator here soon as well.

It’s gonna be a bit but I’m gonna take a weekend to pull apart the head and do the gasket and clean everything and put it back together and hopefully after that, I’ll have a good running, sounding car.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

98gstJames

Proven Member
89
16
May 25, 2022
Virginia
So I’m trying to find a tensioner and pulley for my eclipse and I’m not sure where the best place to look for one is, I found a couple online but I’m just unsure if the other brands will give me the same results that I need or what.
 
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