Cant set igintion timing

[bmwracing_6]

Ok i tried to set my igintion timing so i ground the wire on the fire as needed then used the light and it was about 1 inch past the last mark on the timing cover which would be about 30 degrees advanced so i turned the CAS and got it to about ~15 advanced but the CAS wont go any further cause i wanted to set it to ~5 degrees. And also when i took off the wire that i grounded the connector with... the settings went to the exact same place it was to begin with(~30 degrees). Why is that and what do i do to make this work right. My car is extremely slow by the way but i think is cause of the timing.

Thanks Justin

 

[steve]

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Its hard to see it on the crank picture but you can see a spec of the very tip of the arrow pointing to the crank gear.

I'm stumped how that is running since it looks like there isn't a timing belt on that crank sprocket. IIRC the balance shaft belt is the back one and the timing belt should be in the teeth of the sprocket you can see and isn't.

Steve

 

[bmwracing_6]

It may look like there is no belt however this is the top of the pulley so you cant see the bottom or left side where the belt lays. Let me go take a picture of the whole pulley so you can see.

"IIRC the balance shaft belt is the back one and the timing belt should be in the teeth of the sprocket you can see and isn't."

Its at an angle so it may look off but what exactly do you mean? do the mean that the cranks sprocket and the plate for the timing should line up with the plate arrow and the dip between the teeth in the sprocket?

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[tqmx1]

Thats a nice picture of the timing gears but I want to see the harmonic ballancer and it's marks. (That is where you timing will go to hell in a hen basket)

 

[steve]

Let me go take a picture of the whole pulley so you can see.

Much better thanks.
How do you index the harmonic dampner? It looks like the roll pin is pressed all the way into the sprocket?

Steve

 

[bmwracing_6]

Thats a nice picture of the timing gears but I want to see the harmonic ballancer and it's marks. (That is where you timing will go to hell in a hen basket)

Do you want a picture when it is at full TDC or when the cam gears are in line of the harmonic balancer?

Here is a picture of the harmonic balancer when the piston is at fully TDC. Its hard to see but the best i could do however it lines up just like is is suppose to.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

How do you index the harmonic dampner? It looks like the roll pin is pressed all the way into the sprocket?

Yeah thats how it was when i took the engine apart and did the build i bought the car in September and that is how i bought it. the way i put it on was by putting the pulley on and making sure the hole was over the pin then placed a thin screw driver that was small enough to fit though then tightened everything down.

Thanks Justin

 

[bmwracing_6]

well i put the walbro fuel pump in and it did make it idle better but it is still extremely slow. What else do i need to check? Could the cat be clogged? But i still don't know why that would affect my timing.

Thanks Justin

 

[bmwracing_6]

Well i have just been trying something to see what might happen. But everything i have done has not helped. The Cat was not clogged and the fuel pump did not help either. So could the CAS or the Air flow sensor be bad? Or could a blown turbo do this? the turbo had no shaft play in or out and the normal amount of side to side for a good turbo.


Thanks Justin

 

[GVR4592]

I can't say for sure what is going on, but there are some things I would do I was in this situation.

I would take make sure the timing plate behind the crank sprocket is correctly aligned. I've seen a few cases where the plate spins independently of the crankshaft. If that happened and you set your cam timing to what you "thought" was correct, then that would explain the problem. Again I can't say for sure that's what happened, it's just a possibility.

The other thing I would do, is get the roll pin in the correct position so you don't have to use a screwdriver to line up the damper. I would try that before taking the timing belt off again.

 

[bmwracing_6]

I have a question when the marks are aligned on the timing belt they are not suppose to be at full TDC correct?... they are suppose to be BTDC right? But i will see what i can do with the damper i tried to pull it out a little but i think i am going to have to take the sprocket off and hit the pin through from the other side. i dont see how i could have put the plate on wrong since there is only one way to put it on but i guess you never know until you check... but i remember putting it on with the grove over the metal slit on the crank. I will check it next week i am on vacation now so it will be a while until i see the car.

Thanks Justin

 

[steve]

I have a question when the marks are aligned on the timing belt they are not suppose to be at full TDC correct?... they are suppose to be BTDC right?

No the timing marks on all the sprockets are TDC marks. Cylinder 1 should be at TDC compression stroke whe all the marks line up.

The keyway in the crank timing plate isn't at TDC so flipping the plate will throw the crank off if it's backwards.

Steve

 

[bmwracing_6]

Ok well there is a big problem then when i align the marks the motor has to move about a quater turn until the motor is at full TDC. But when it is at full TDC the harmonic balancer lines up to the TDC mark on the Timing cover even though it is like this is this right?. What should i do from here?

Thanks Justin

 

[steve]

So when turn the engine over so that the crank sprocket plate timing mark indicates TDC the piston isn't at TDC?

Steve

 

[bmwracing_6]

No... when the crank is lined up it it not at TDC. One of my friends said thats the way most turbo cars are i thought he knew what he was talking about so i did not make a big deal of it but it seemed odd to me. And from the posts on how to line the timing up it seems like they say its not suppose to be at Full TDC but on the compression stoke so that would be BTDC correct? This is just how it sounded to me but i guess i am wrong so what would cause this?

 

[Calan]

To maybe simplify the excellent responses you have gotten here:

1. Make sure the plate behind the crank sprocket is correctly oriented. It is "dish shaped" and needs to be facing in the correct direction (kind of hard to explain in words...maybe someone has a good pic).

2. Make sure the balancer mark matches up with the crank sprocket plate's notch. (fix that sunken pin, double-check the rubber, etc.)

3. With both the plate and balancer pointing directly at the TDC mark(s), check that the cam gears still look like the pic above. (the crank plate lines up with a small arrow-shaped boss on the front case under the plastic timing cover; the balancer mark lines up with the TDC mark on the cover). And of course the oil pump and BS marks need to also line up.

If this all started with a t-belt job, it's possible that the tensioner wasn't set correctly. I found that it's a bit tricky at first to get it right. It may appear to be correct, but as the tensioner and everything settles in, you can find yourself off a tooth. Also, the exhaust cam doesn't like setting exactly at TDC... so it will move a bit and cause an easily overlooked belt misalignment.

If the timing belt alignment appears correct, my guess is that the crank plate is reversed, or that your balancer (inner/outer ring) has slipped but is still tight enough that you can't tell.

Definitely sounds like a mechanical timing issue though... as opposed to a fuel problem, faulty CAS, or something like that.

 

[steve]

No... when the crank is lined up it it not at TDC.

One of my friends said thats the way most turbo cars are i thought he knew what he was talking about so i did not make a big deal of it but it seemed odd to me.

And from the posts on how to line the timing up it seems like they say its not suppose to be at Full TDC but on the compression stoke so that would be BTDC correct?
This is just how it sounded to me but i guess i am wrong so what would cause this?

Your friend is wrong. Maybe not stupid but confused.

All the discussion about timing marks when doing your timing belt assume you have the backing plate on the correct way so that the mark at the crank is TDC. Everything else depends on it being at TDC. We talk about TDC compression stroke because the cams make the difference between TDC compression and TDC exhaust. Ignition timing is degrees before this event but all timing belt discussions are relative to the piston in cylinder 1 being at the top of it's travel and setting the marks on the cams with the dowels pointing up will insure that it's on the compression stroke.

From what you describe it sounds like you flipped the backing plate and you'll need to remove the timing belt and flip it over, then check TDC again.

Steve

 

[bmwracing_6]

Alright i will check this out but as i stated above i am on vacation and it will not be until about Monday or Tuesday until i will have time to work on it again but obviously this is the problem and i will keep you posted on what happens.


Thanks Justin

 

[bmwracing_6]

Ok well the timing plate was flipped and i flipped it back and now it runs smooth and runs strong thanks for the help.

Justin

 

[bling5tatus]

Haha, awesome, good deal, glad to see you've got it fixed now.

 

[Austin06]

Well, I must say that I'm impressed you were able to set the timing marks correctly with the backing plate installed backwards. I just went through that myself, with the plate reversed, but I was unable to set the timing marks at all.