Camshafts?

[mitsu29]

Ok as i was looking through the Cylinder Head Forum looking for advice on camshafts, actually not advice, a walkthrough on how they work, what they do etc.. when i noticed a topic that said " We need more Tech Articles" and man we do. Unfortunately i'm not the person to do that as i myself have a question about cams.

I have almost all the bolt-ons needed:

Buschur Racing Hi-Flow Catalytic Converter
Greddy SP Full Cat-Back Exhaust
Greddy TDO5H/18G Turbo Upgrade Kit
Greddy 24R FMIC
Greddy Turbo Timer
Greddy Type RS Blow off Valve
Greddy Upper IC Pipe Kit
Blitz BLM Boost Gauge
Injen Intake
ACT Streetlite Flywheel
ACT 2100 Clutch

So i was just wondering which cam gears/camshafts?? would be best to get. My car is a daily driver I heard the HKS Camgears were pretty good??

 

[1g_tsi_awd]

You should look into either HKS 264/272 setup or just a full 272...

272 is more aggressive and that is probably what you should get if you want to upgrade your turbo again...

 

[Spooling99]

Extreme PSI has a deal on HKS cams with Fidanza cam gears. If you dont have all that cash you could look at DKS cams, They're mirror images of the HKS cams and half the cost. Or you could lose some low end torque to more top end and get the FP2's as well.

www.ffwdconnection.com DKS cams

www.forcedpeformance.net FP2's

 

[mitsu29]

You should look into either HKS 264/272 setup or just a full 272...

272 is more aggressive and that is probably what you should get if you want to upgrade your turbo again...

Ok what exactly does the 264/272 mean?<--those are cam gears correct?? again i appologize for my lack of knowledge in this area as i have finally entered a couple of areas about my car that i have yet to venture in. Namely the cam gears and camshafts and the Fuel Managment and Tuning. I know the difference between Camshafts(those are inside under the valve cover and are long rods with like lobes in them) and the Cam Gears are where my alternator/timing belt areas is correct? what about pulleys??

Also i probably am going to go with the 264/272 setup as i from what i gather from your post, 272s would seem too much if im staying with my current turbo correct? again thanks for you guys' patience and bring on the knowledge you have a very eager dsmer ready to learn more about his 4g63

 

[Boost Freak 3]

Id also recomend going with the 264/272. My friend has that and it sounds extremely good at idle. Plus hes making a little over 300 and he has a small 16g. The #s are the lobes degress I think I could be wrong if I am someone say so.

 

[1g_tsi_awd]

264/272 is the duration of the camshaft. The higher the number the more aggressive the camshaft is. If you are going to stick with the turbo that you currently have then I would go with a FP1/FP2 set-up or the 264/272 set-up. It will keep the powerband lower in the rpm range where that turbo can make the most power. If it wasn't going to go with a larger turbo in the near future then I would have went with the 264/272 cams but I plan on at least go to a 50 trim at the beginning of next year.

Here is a tech article that dsmonster did on camshafts. It's really in depth but it should give you a little better idea of what would be the best set-up for you.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221242

 

[mjarrell20]

I have the 264/272 setup and it's sweet, pulls hard from 2500k all the way to red line. This setup is perfect for a smaller turbo like a 16g but if you have plans to go bigger I would go ahead and get the more aggressive 272/272 setup. I personally don't think cam gears are necessary on a daily driver, unless you're gonna get heavy into tuning the car. I don't think you gain much from cam gears unless you're hard core about squeezing out every little bit of power out of your car.

 

[ChvyKc]

I agree with mjarrell that you don't need the cam gears. You really can pick up some power with timing on a highly built motor but I wouldn't mess with it if you are planning on using the car for a daily driver. I would put the money somewhere else.

 

[daren_p]

When people refer to 264 or 272 they are talking about HKS cams. These are the numbers that refer to the amount of time in degrees that the valves are open a certain amount of lift. Usually this number is measured at .050" lift (the HKS aren't measured at this number as 264 or 272 isn't a realistic number at that much lift). When you upgrade cams you are trying to let more air into the engine & there are a couple ways to do that, You either add more duration (the amount of time the valve is open, this is what makes the idle more lumpy, ie like how a muscle car sounds with a cam) add more lift (the amount of distance you open the valve) or increase the ramp rate (how quickly the valve open/closes). Where the power will be gained will depend on which combinations of these the manufacturer uses. Normally with a smaller turbo you want a cam that will produce the most gains in the middle, while with larger turbos you want cams that make all their power in the top end, but will sacrifice some bottom end.

Most cams for our cars are basically drop in, I say that as the minimal gains that you will get with cam gears aren't worth the cost of the gears and all the dyno time to get them set up correctly. What cams you go with depends on what your looking for & what you will be upgrading to (turbo wise) in the future, also if you have to keep the car emissions friendly. HKS are proven but are also the most expensive, you would want to go min. with the 264 intake & 272 exhaust but if you don't have to worry about emissions I would probably just go straigth up 272's. You can save abit of cash and go with the forced performance (FP) FP1/FP2 combo (basically the 264/272) or straight up FP2's (with the 2's you will lose abit more bottom end compared to the 272's but gain it in the top). Now ontop of that FP also offers an X series of cams which increase the ramp rate. Since these open/close the valve quicker they can stay open longer which gives the cam a more "square" profile. Only problem with these is you need upgraded valve springs with these. Hope this helps out abit on your understanding of cams.

 

[1g_tsi_awd]

Running a bigger turbo may require new cam gears because with mor Boost you willwant to retard the timing a bit... That will coem later though, so for now, say NO to new cam gears... Word to your mutha...

 

[mitsu29]

wow guys thanks for all the feedback. Im printing out that tech article to take home(im at work) to get a much better understanding, although a lot of the posts here has helped out quite a bit. Also im using this car as my daily driver for now, as next year i will either get a truck or supra(hehe sounds like it would be an easy pick but since i want 'toys' in the future like seadoos, hayabusa etc..you know) so then once that happens i will be able to dedicate my dsm to the track which is why im preparing myself with the cams info as early as possible.

Also, hehe squeezing as much gains as you can is never a bad thing again thanks for all your guys help and the FP1/FP2 and HKS 264/272 are gonna be a hard decision to choose from. Again thanks for all the info and ill update you guys on which cams i went with

 

[nightspeed87]

i thought just about all cams arent emissions friendly? ( Not that i care right now since i live in FL.) but eventually im going to be moving to l.a. and hear they cant do hardly anything ( cams, etc. )

 

[daren_p]

i thought just about all cams arent emissions friendly? ( Not that i care right now since i live in FL.) but eventually im going to be moving to l.a. and hear they cant do hardly anything ( cams, etc. )

I guess you can say all cams aren't emissions friendly but depending on the "size" of the cam you can still pass even the strictist emissions laws. 264's or the 264/272 combo don't seem to have too much trouble and I know of quite a few who passed with the larger straight up 272 combo, just need to do a little tweeking .

 

[brute]

A site that really helped me understand better when I was first getting into cars is found here. There's a lot of good diagrams and descriptions, and the best part (for me) is the moving diagrams.

 

[mitsu29]

Ok so im about to buy my camshafts, so which would be the better combo for this turbo:

Greddy TDO5H/18G

The HKS 264/272 or the 272/272??

Also i been reading that Greddy has some EASY Camshafts out, are those any good for our cars or should i just stick with the HKS ones? and if so which HKS combo would be best for the setup above??

 

[sleepr7]

You can't go wrong with either, although the 264/272 combo may idle a bit better than the full 272's. I'm using the 264/272 and absolutely love them but definitely required a bit of tuninig to get a proper idle.

 

[BoostFrenzy]

For the combo you can do either HKS or FP. HKS combo sound really nice when at idle. They got a lump to them but it isn't too extreme. But if you want to run straight 272 cams, you should go with FP because idle is manageable with these because of the way FP designed them. I don't really know what cams (Combo or straight 272) would work best with a 18g but i suppose either will do fine. Combo will let you keep more bottom end power, but if you want to have all your power to be at hand all the way to your rev limit, 272s will do well.

This is a video of a friend of mine on a HKS 264/272 combo from a little bit ago: http://youtube.com/watch?v=CoemssxIVwc

 

[daren_p]

Ok so im about to buy my camshafts, so which would be the better combo for this turbo:

Greddy TDO5H/18G

The HKS 264/272 or the 272/272??

Also i been reading that Greddy has some EASY Camshafts out, are those any good for our cars or should i just stick with the HKS ones? and if so which HKS combo would be best for the setup above??

Is that the largest turbo you plan on running? Do you have to worry about emissions? Where in the power band are you looking for gains? etc. With an 18g sized turbo, either of those setups will work great, they will just produce power in different rpm bands. The 264/272 combo will boost your lower to mid rpms but still offer abit more top end vs a straight up 264 combo (which would still offer better top end then stock). The 272's will lose abit on the lower rpms but produce nice gains in the upper rpms. The straight up 272's will give you a lumpier idle, probably abit less vacuum & be less emissions friendly.

Something to consider, FP comp, BC, etc all make versions of some or all the cams you mentioned & they come in at a much cheeper price

 

[mitsu29]

Is that the largest turbo you plan on running? Do you have to worry about emissions? Where in the power band are you looking for gains? etc. With an 18g sized turbo, either of those setups will work great, they will just produce power in different rpm bands. The 264/272 combo will boost your lower to mid rpms but still offer abit more top end vs a straight up 264 combo (which would still offer better top end then stock). The 272's will lose abit on the lower rpms but produce nice gains in the upper rpms. The straight up 272's will give you a lumpier idle, probably abit less vacuum & be less emissions friendly.

Something to consider, FP comp, BC, etc all make versions of some or all the cams you mentioned & they come in at a much cheeper price

Ok i guess since im a FWD car, having the power at the lower RPM range wouldnt be too good or as efficient as having the power in the mid to higher RPM range im guessing right?

Also, are the HKS 272/272's just pop in play? i mean do i have to mess with my valve timings or anything else like that? is it just the idle i would have to mess with??

Yeah the 272/272's seem to be the way to go because as it is, im already having problems in the lower rpm range for traction, so im thinking if the power stays the same as is in the lower rpms ( 1000-3000) then i would be good with the 272-272's and gain the power in the mid to higer rpm range 3500-6000 correct? what would you recommend in terms of efficiency?

 

[esoung]

HKS 272/272 doesn't really make much power difference, but the 272/272 eloped aggressively. I'd also consider BC cams. As for cam gears, if you plan to take it for some dyno tuning that with give 3-5 hp and you also need a boost controller.

 

[BoostFrenzy]

272's would net you a lose in the lower RPM range. But you would gain it all back in the upper RPM area. So yes, it would be good to have it that way if you are already experiencing traction problems.

 

[Black_Bullet]

When people refer to 264 or 272 they are talking about HKS cams. These are the numbers that refer to the amount of time in degrees that the valves are open a certain amount of lift. Usually this number is measured at .050" lift (the HKS aren't measured at this number as 264 or 272 isn't a realistic number at that much lift). When you upgrade cams you are trying to let more air into the engine & there are a couple ways to do that, You either add more duration (the amount of time the valve is open, this is what makes the idle more lumpy, ie like how a muscle car sounds with a cam) add more lift (the amount of distance you open the valve) or increase the ramp rate (how quickly the valve open/closes). Where the power will be gained will depend on which combinations of these the manufacturer uses. Normally with a smaller turbo you want a cam that will produce the most gains in the middle, while with larger turbos you want cams that make all their power in the top end, but will sacrifice some bottom end.

Most cams for our cars are basically drop in, I say that as the minimal gains that you will get with cam gears aren't worth the cost of the gears and all the dyno time to get them set up correctly. What cams you go with depends on what your looking for & what you will be upgrading to (turbo wise) in the future, also if you have to keep the car emissions friendly. HKS are proven but are also the most expensive, you would want to go min. with the 264 intake & 272 exhaust but if you don't have to worry about emissions I would probably just go straigth up 272's. You can save abit of cash and go with the forced performance (FP) FP1/FP2 combo (basically the 264/272) or straight up FP2's (with the 2's you will lose abit more bottom end compared to the 272's but gain it in the top). Now ontop of that FP also offers an X series of cams which increase the ramp rate. Since these open/close the valve quicker they can stay open longer which gives the cam a more "square" profile. Only problem with these is you need upgraded valve springs with these. Hope this helps out abit on your understanding of cams.

You can mix fp1's and fp2's with a straight drop in?
I was thinking of just getting just straight fp1s because I dont plan to upgrade my e316g
anytime soon if on a slight chance that I do i contemplated putting either a fp bb 3052
or a MHI tdoh6 20g but wasnt counting on a turbo upgrade due to needing to do a new
o2 housing set up/ external wastegate, and a stronger clutch set up which would rack the
costs up quite a bit... I dont want to lose the hard hitting feeling of the stock cams,
so i figured Fp1s would still hit like stock cams but pull harder than 264s with good midrange torque characteristics...

 

[daren_p]

You can mix fp1's and fp2's with a straight drop in?
I was thinking of just getting just straight fp1s because I dont plan to upgrade my e316g
anytime soon if on a slight chance that I do i contemplated putting either a fp bb 3052
or a MHI tdoh6 20g but wasnt counting on a turbo upgrade due to needing to do a new
o2 housing set up/ external wastegate, and a stronger clutch set up which would rack the
costs up quite a bit... I dont want to lose the hard hitting feeling of the stock cams,
so i figured Fp1s would still hit like stock cams but pull harder than 264s with good midrange torque characteristics...

Yes you can mix & match FP1's & FP2's (well atleast you could last time I checked) & they are both direct drop ins. If you don't plan on getting larger then the evoIII, & you don't have to worry about emissions, I would opt for the FP1/FP2 combo (1 intake, 2 exhaust). This seems to give good mid range gains but also gives abit more top end compared to the straight up FP1's.

I ran my FP1X cams with the evoIII & they made a tonn of power/torque in the 4000 to 5500 range & yes they hit nice & hard at spool up. These are more agressive then the std FP 1 cams & have the same lift as the FP2's but also have an increased ramp rate so you need aftermarket springs.

To the OP, being fwd, yes your right a 272 combo would be a better route to go as far as trying to prevent anymore traction loss. The HKS cams as well are just a drop in install. Like most of the other cams for our cars, if you want every single HP/Ftlb out of the cams, adjustable cams gears will get you this but for the typical gains you'd see in an average power street car, the gains aren't going to be worth the cost of the dyno time & gears. As for the 272's in general, you may lose abit say in the 3000-5000 range, then you will start to see where the cams shine over the factory units as you move up through the 5000's till redline.

 

[Black_Bullet]

I may just do fp1/fp2 combo then... I dont plan on doing the x series cam because i dont want to add cost to this operation and i planned on installing the cams myself with a friends help so i dont want to increase difficulty in the installation. I also agree cam gears not to be worth it unless say you had a stroker and you were trying to get more out of some fp2 or 272s or something. Thanks for the info.

 

[dsm-onster]

FWIW, I ran the same unclipped tdo5h 18G for a long while w/ 272 type cams. They were the fp2Xs. Thse cams have nearly identical duration to the HKS 272s w/ more ramp rate and a little different centerline for an even higher power band. I absolutely loved them.

The difference between the fp2X and the fp2s is not worth the spring upgrade in my book [putting on my fire suit]. I would upgrade springs to run 8500+ for the fp2 grind. Most get away w/ stock springs running the fp2 grind in street setups. I say run the fp2s or 272s (about the same powerband and potential) because:

1. They did great for my unclipped 18g for decent "street spool". But, the powerband was very linear. So no sudden shocks to the drivetrain/tires/suspension that causes a FWD to go haywire.
2. They work good w/ a 1g head/intake so that is an option for cheaply adding a bit more power now.
3. They respond VERY well to any intake manifold and exhaust manifold upgrades.
4.They have potential for much more hp than your goal but are still very streetable. Idle quality is fine for the street.
5. They can be configured to easily pass emmisions w/ a set of adjustable cam gears. Retarding the intake cam a little or advancing the exhaust cam a little causes less overlap which greatly assists in passing a sniffer test AND really helps idle. Now, this will cause your power band to be more "peaky". But, just for an emmissions test, that's ok for me .
6. Those same adjustable cam gears can be used for "tweeking" your cams for a more lively street power band. These fp2Xs have responded VERY well to an exhaust cam retard of about 3 degrees you achieve a great power band and still a decent topend. Most report the same results even for stock cams or 264s no matter what setup they have. This made my bigger 60-1 turbo fun and torquey at 3500 rpms! I feel that the 212-213 duration (@ .05" lift) which the fp2s and hks272s have is ideal for versatility. Adding the cam gears and simply retarding the exhaust cam gear 1 degree at a time until you get the highest fun factor was enough for me. My power band felt better and broader than a local's 264/272 combo w/ an evo3 16g and otherwise identical mods.

400 hp is right on the border for 264s (fp1) vs. 272s (fp2). If you said that you were looking for 350whp and would be satsfied then, I'd say get fp1s.

Concerning the cam gears: I'd drop in the 272 or fp2 cams and drive them around for a while untweeked ("straight up"). Then ask yourself what you want out of your setup, AFTER you do this. You may feel that are a little too sluggish down low for your liking. Or you may feel that you want more turbo later. If you want more turbo, don't bother tweeking them. They both run way to well to waste the money for cam gears. If you want more downlow because the car just isn't "fun" any more, then invest in ONE adjustable cam gear for the exhaust cam. You can advance the exhaust cam to pass inspection or retard it to cause the turbo to spool SUPER! quick and give you more power band at a lower rpm.

A side: I recommend clipping the tdo5h exhaust wheel 7-10 degrees if running 272s or the much more affordable fp2s. I regretted not doing this to my tdo5h 18g. This is because the 18g compressor flows more than what the turbine can deliver in stock fashion w/ these cams. It also would be a cheap way to help insure reaching your goal. A tdo5h turbine in a 7cm^2 turbine housing is hard pressed to get to 400whp. You can have a 20g or 25g compressor wheel on there and you still will have difficulty. It's DEFIANTELY possible. But, a clip is sold standard on the FP18G and that is the only difference between your greddy 18g and theirs. It would just make things a little easier. You *may* get to that goal w/ the 18g on pump gas if you have a decent clip and a decent intercooler. 272s (fp2) and a clipped 18g w/ enough fuel and intercooler is all that's needed for a 400hp goal.