camshafts

[Yamahaulin]

Ok, i'm in the market for some camshafts for my 95 talon with 6bolt swap. I have 1000cc injectors, 255 walbro, dsmlink, masterpower t3 turbo don't know much about it other than it has a .53 ar on the housing, stock head with some bowl work done, and crower springs and retainers. The car makes 315 awhp on 18psi @ 6k rpm. Looking to extend my rpms some. I come from the v8 LT1/LS1 world and I always like to use comp cams, but i see more people using hks cams. What would be a good cam company and size for my application? You guys have been a great help to me so far in my new DSM journey.

 

[HurleyTSi]

Kelford has proven to be the best drop in cam so far. I believe they are cheaper than the HKS ones. FP is a popular brand too. Comp is good as well.

BC has the worst rep though....some will say different but just from the studies I'd stay away from those.

If it was me I'd buy a set of Kelford 272s and a set of FP Beehive springs. I have HKS for mine only cause I got a sweet 2 for 1 deal on them.

 

[DSM_PWR]

Kelfords > FP > HKS ina 272/272

Cant go wrong with any of those...

Id stay away from BC because of all the bad ive read plus AMS did a dyno test a whiles back ona Evo and BC showed the least performance gain; Kelfords showed the best overall

 

[Yamahaulin]

I am hoping to not have to change springs. I'm trying to find out more on the crower springs and ti retainers the previous owner put on the car.

 

[95burgundyesi]

Yeah I would not rev high on a non fresh head with kelfords. I would stick around stock redline. Sure you can go higher, but they really need/like strong springs to safely extend your power band since they have the most lift.

I have fp2 cams and I can't complain. They pull hard all the way to 7500 and they would go to 8000 if I asked them too. FP cams to not cam like some of the others out there, which you may or may want. I like the stock sound for my DD. I have read good things on Manley springs and retainers with these cams.

 

[Yamahaulin]

The car only has 5000 on a fresh rebuild and it got brand new crower springs and titanium retainers along with some bowl work to the heads. I'm still waiting to get more info on the springs. Where is the best place to purchase kelford cams from?

 

[dsm-onster]

Kelfords > FP > HKS ina 272/272

Cant go wrong with any of those...

This is the 3rd time you've said this exact same thing. . .

Which powerband? The hks272s and FP2s have 212-213 duration at .05" lift. The kelfords have 226. That's like saying you can't go wrong with hks272s/BC288s/fp2s. . . If the cam isn't in his choice of powerband then he can certainly go wrong.

The kelfords made more power because they move the torque band to a higher rpm and moving the torqueband to the right raises the hp since hp is a function of torque and rpm. ALL 225+ duration cams in that ams test made more pwer than ALL 212-213 typical duration for advertized 272s.

Even with the laggier gt35r, the ams test results showed the kelford 272s making power a bit later in the area that the other 280-288 range. With the laggier 35r. Using an fp3052, 50-trim hx35, 20g or evo3 16g, the difference in powerband would have been even more pronounced.

OP has a t3 hotside with only 315whp with stock cams and wants to "extend his rpms some". In fact, I do believe the only t3/t4 masterpower builds is the 50-trim. Why would he jump right into cams that are in the 226 at .05" lift (typical 288 advertized) range.

Really need to learn to decipher test results before giving out advice on the subject.

OP if you want kelford brand and the same powerband as other brand advertized duration 272s, you want the kelford advertized duration 264s. They still have higher .05" effective duration of 216; 3-4 degrees over advertized 272s. But they never did a comparison test of other brand 272s with the same effective duration as the kelford 264s for some reason .

 

[Yamahaulin]

In the dyno graph i got with the car peak power is at 6k. I would like to be able to still have good streetablilty like i have now but would like to be able to make peak power 500 - 1000 rmps more. I know I will lose some bottom end power but hopefully not a lot. Also plan on adding a bit more boost, the car made 315 @ 18psi, would like to see 20-22psi as long as i can do it on pump gas.

 

[dsm-onster]

A cam in the 212-218 duration at .05" lift is what you're after. Also you can play with cam timing with suchlike cams and improve the street manners and still have a higher peak rpm where peak power is made.

 

[Yamahaulin]

A cam in the 212-218 duration at .05" lift is what you're after. Also you can play with cam timing with suchlike cams and improve the street manners and still have a higher peak rpm where peak power is made.

What brand do you recommend?

 

[dsm-onster]

I personally really like my FP2x cams. They don't make these any more, but they still make the FP2 cams which are similar but with a little less ramp rate. Also the Comp 101200s are basically the same cam.

HKS272s work nice. I've tuned or helped tune several DSMs with these.

The kelford 264s seam like a nice grind for your goal. They have have slightly higher duration than the above cams and have a little more lift. They likely have a nice fat ramp. I've just not had any personal experience with those. These cams may still require a spring upgrade while the ones mentioned above do not. Personally, I don't look at crower springs as being much an upgrade to stock. So if you are wanting to purchase these, then you need to contact Kelford about required spring specs and determine if your Crower springs fall with in the requirements.

 

[1g_TaLoN]

Comp cams are FP cams
101100=fp1
101200=fp2
101300=fp3
101400=fp4

I dont know about the 4R, 5R, 11R in the compcam world.

 

[Yamahaulin]

I'm now looking at the kelford 264/270 cam combo. Which is Duration @ 1.0mm Valve Lift: 216 Inlet/222 Exhaust. I think that should work out nicely, do you guys think this will work out ok, plus maybe leave me some room to add a bigger turbo down the road looking for 400awhp.

 

[jrohner]

In the dyno graph i got with the car peak power is at 6k. I would like to be able to still have good streetablilty like i have now but would like to be able to make peak power 500 - 1000 rmps more. I know I will lose some bottom end power but hopefully not a lot. Also plan on adding a bit more boost, the car made 315 @ 18psi, would like to see 20-22psi as long as i can do it on pump gas.

Why are you so worried about where you make peak hp? It matters more how much it falls off than where the peak actually is. If you want more top end, get the boost higher on top end, such as doing something to make boost creep or running electronic boost control. If you get the right cams for your setup, you'll gain power almost everywhere but your peak probably won't go up 1000RPMs. It might until you maximize your setup and turn up the boost, then you'll probably be peaking at the same RPM again.


I'm at 400hp and my peak is at only 5600. If I turn down my boost a bit, it seems to pull pretty good to 8 grand. These aren't Honduh's, you don't need to rev high for 3-400hp.

 

[Yamahaulin]

Do you think sheps 7 second car only turns 5600 rpm? Any fast car turns 7k +, there must be a reason for this. I believe in the old statement " RPM is power". An engine is really only an air pump, the more rpm the more air it can pump.

 

[dsm-onster]

Well technically power is power and making 500whp at 5800rpms will do the same work as 500whp at 8000rpms. Moving torque up the rpm range raises peak HP though. I believe you should be looking to still be outputting close to your peak power at the end of the track in 4th if you're building a machine to get a good 1/4 mile time. Circuit racing is different.

If you plan on running say 145mph with a 3200lb race weight (about 750whp), then you need to be sure you can rev your motor out to 145 without needing to shift to 5th. So you either have to accomodate that with gearing. Or you need to be making close to your peak power through a higher rpm that will allow you stay in 4th. After all, if you you need to winde out 4rth to 8500rpms but your power peaks at 5800rpms and drops off too much then you could really benefit from shifting the power band higher. Considering the dsm grear and final drive ratios and what seams to be your goal, you're perfectly fine with a stock revlimit and you really need to focus on how to build a setup that will make the most power between your shift points.

Typically you want cams that best works from your rpm that you will be shifting to up through redline. Shifting at the stock revlimit for a DSM puts you at 5K going to 3rd and 5.5K going to 4th. Thus having the bulk of the curve within 5000-7500rpms is most beneficial for those wanting to stick with a stock revlimit but are building for drag racing. And any 212-218 duration cam can do this with a SMIM. The problem is the intake manifold. As jrohner mentioned it's more about keeping the power from fallign off and the 1g intake manifold after about 6500rpms will really restrict a cam that will function fine from 5K-7.5K. While a typical SMIM works great from 5K to MORE than 8.5K.

So yes you will still move your power band up a bit by going to 212-218 duration cams, but you will be better off getting a SMIM upgrade if you want power to still be very good right at redline or after. Getting a bigger cam instead likely won't do it.

You mean 264/260 not 264/270 right? They have 216 duration at 1mm lift for both cams. Yes it should work out nicely. they appear to have a better ramp rate than other cams of the same .05" duration. So you may still need more spring. It would be interesting to see how 216 intake and 222 exhaust would do though. You could always just upgrade the intake cam later if you want more since 222 is a very healthy duration.

 

[Yamahaulin]

As this is my first dsm, i was unaware that the stock intake manifold was so crapy in the upper rpm band. What SMIM do you recommend as i will do that with the cam swap. This is a link to the site i was looking at cams Kelford Cams Mitsubishi 1G Eclipse 264 270 DSM Camshafts . My ultimate goal with the car is 400awhp on 93 octane pump gas. I know my current setup is not capable of that power level on pump gas, maybe with some race gas and more boost than the 18 i'm running i can maybe get there, but i would like to be able to drive around at 400awhp everyday if I so desired.

 

[Calan]

i was unaware that the stock intake manifold was so crapy in the upper rpm band.

I wouldn't say "crappy"... just not optimized for higher revs.

You can get to 400whp all day long without a SMIM, and for a street car I'd rather have the power in the mid band anyway. Higher RPM = higher repair bills.

 

[dsm-onster]

I'm looking at kelfords website directly and don't see those there. That's not to say that ETS is wrong with the specs at all, though. Again, that could be a nice compromise.

I still think you should stick with cams under 218* on both sides. Those cams typically resonate well with the stock 1g intake manifold at even 7K and the drop off in power is not too severe. Actually larger duration lowers the harmonic points in the rpm range for an intake runner length. considering the power high velocity flow of the 1g intake manifold and adding in a cam that LOWERS the harmonics of the runner length, you're asking for alot of drop off in power. There have been more than several who have claimed their 218-216 duration cams have net less power than their 213-212 cams. I suspect it has to do with the fact that 212-213 duration cams resonate on the SECOND harmonic (VERY gooood) at right at 7K with the 1g intake manifold runner length/width combination. This negates alot of the otherwise terrible flow design for that rpm or higher.

So yea the fall off isn't that bad but definately apparent, just like 90% of the other intake manifolds out there within other platforms. And again, you'd be better off with a 212-213 duration cam and later getting a SMIM if you want more, than getting 218 or larger cams. GEt the larger cams AND a smim if you're dead set on revving the snot out of your build.

 

[Yamahaulin]

So maybe these cams Comp Severe Competition Camshafts - Modern Automotive Performance and later adding a jmf smim and 75mm t-body might be the ticket?

 

[dsm-onster]

Those are FP2s Yep. They are very good for your goal and later when you really want amuch igher peak, they won't hold you back. You'll just need to get a SMIM and have at it.

 

[Yamahaulin]

Do you recommend advancing or retarding them with adjustable cam gears? Since you use them you should know a good setting for me.

 

[Calan]

Do you recommend advancing or retarding them with adjustable cam gears? Since you use them you should know a good setting for me.

You should use adjustable cam gears to degree them so that they match up with the spec card. Then advance or retard them for performance gains if you wish based on dyno or other tuning results.

There is no "good setting". It depends completely on your engine geometry and what you want to get out of them.

 

[dsm-onster]

I've only run them straight up. But I got hella results with my small 16g. At only 22psi I saw 37lb/min even with the stock intake manifold and evo 3 exhaust manifold. The cams flat out suck alot of air. They did better on topend than my brothers car with the same turbo and setup but with hks 272 regrinds. I really like the fp2s (comp 101200s). Comp knows how to build a cam.

You hear great stuff about kelford 272s because everyones bragging about the cam test results. But even the cam results showed they come on later. And the test car was a laggier gt35r setup with a SMIM. Everyone who actually runs the cams knows how much topend oriented they are. Like I said, if you get a cam that big you really need a SMIM upgrade to make it worth while. And you still have to deal with upgrading all your valvetrain just to handle them in the meantime.

 

[Calan]

I loved the FP1/FP2 combo in my 2.0L with the E16G. I switched to FP2/FP2 on the stroker rebuild, and they are sucking the E16G dry.

Granted it is a stroker...but still. I think they are great cams.