Cam test: I will be dyno test: delta hks 272, delta K272 and BC 272 cams!!!!

[Bender]

I understand what you are trying to say. At 0.05" of lift, most 272 cams have a duration around 212ish. Then you were saying that Kelfords were 272's at that same point?

Then Kelford advertises 272 duration at 0.05.

I still stand behind my statement though because from open to close, they still have a 272 lift. Not from 0.5" One thing that I think may have caused confusion is you need to convert the mm (which Kelford labels their cams as) to inches (the other manufacturers).

At 0.04", the Kelford's have a duration of 226. Higher than most, but that is because they have so much lift. As I said before, the greater the lift is, the greater the duration is going to have to be. Just simple geometry.

I don't think a manufacturer should be excluded from a test because they have a super high lift cam. Sure the duration above 0.05" is greater than those of other 272's, but it stills falls into the same class of total duration of being 272. They shouldn't be punished because BC decided to make their cams with a lift of 9.6mm's.


And yes, the true test would be how they compared to their non-knock off counterparts. I do say that they will be better than the BC's though.

 

[El Cuervo]

Regardless of. This test is going to be of very good value. Since its actually done on a DSM, Gvr4, evo 1-3 4g63 engine, as oppose to an evo IV + or evo VIII+ 4g63 engine. Which is a completely different thing. DSMers will be able to have a better idea of what to expect from such product thats being tested, instead of relying on results form other engines. Such as: 4g63 evo, b series honda engines, supra engines, etc. Thats all you see now on magazines and alot of the shop/manufactures site.
Though I know that this won't happen, it would be great for magnus and jmf to send a couple SMIM for testing. This is something that alot of people have been arguing about. Which manifold performs better that the next. Either way, I'm glad this test is gonig to be done. More information regarding products for hour engines is always good.

 

[dsm-onster]

I think the test will be plenty beneficial if we have a base run done with stock cams first. . . Regardless, we'll see how THESE brand cams react to a 4g63 vs. stock. Good enough for us to know what we'll be getting if we choose this route.

I understand what you are trying to say. At 0.05" of lift, most 272 cams have a duration around 212ish. Then you were saying that Kelfords were 272's at that same point?

Then Kelford advertises 272 duration at 0.05.

I still stand behind my statement though because from open to close, they still have a 272 lift. Not from 0.5" One thing that I think may have caused confusion is you need to convert the mm (which Kelford labels their cams as) to inches (the other manufacturers).

At 0.04", the Kelford's have a duration of 226. Higher than most, but that is because they have so much lift. As I said before, the greater the lift is, the greater the duration is going to have to be. Just simple geometry.

I don't think a manufacturer should be excluded from a test because they have a super high lift cam. Sure the duration above 0.05" is greater than those of other 272's, but it stills falls into the same class of total duration of being 272. They shouldn't be punished because BC decided to make their cams with a lift of 9.6mm's.


And yes, the true test would be how they compared to their non-knock off counterparts. I do say that they will be better than the BC's though.

. . .ok, i certainly hope you're not thinking I was talking about .5" lift. . . I typed duration at .05" lift as being 226. And I typed duration at .004" (very begining of the lobe, or advertized duration) as being 272. I'm not talking about peak lift. . . Considering the "class" the cams fall in, the motor doesn't respond to advertized duration, it responds to .05" duration. Up to that is considered "preramp" and really is more for preparing the valvetrain for the following ramp rate.


Not here to bust kelford's chops. . . AMS perhaps. But this is simple. You chose a cam based on the rpm range it best performs in. 0.05" lift duration is the duration you look at to determine the point in the rpm range where momentum matches. 226 duration cams function better at a higher rpm than 212 or 213 duration cams. Regardless of the duration at the very begining of the lobe.

kelford 272s have the same duration at .05" lift (where significant flow to the cylinder begins) as most 288 advertized duration cams. Those other 288 cams have 225ish duration at .05" lift and hks 272s and fp2s have 212 or 213 duration at .o5" lift. Why would you compare hks 272s to 288 cams?

Kelford 272s do NOT fall into the same class of cams that folks would chose when looking for 212/213 duration powerbands. So it falls in a technical "class" of fitting the number criteria. But the criteria is not what we use to determine what cam to chose for our setup. We shouldn't be looking at the advertized duration to determine what the cam will do in the rpm range. We should be looking at the .05" lift duration. Since its THAT duration that determines the nature of the ensuing VE curve.

 

[Bender]

Lol that was supposed to be 0.05 inches. The 0 must not have registered.

And reading what you are typing, it seems as though we are both explaining the same thing. Haha. We just have different opinions on how the cams should be classified is all.

You are stating that the test should have been determined by usable duration, and I am saying that it is fine as they fall under the same total duration.

To each their own.

 

[TSIfreek]

Will this test be using the 1g intake or a SMIM?? I think this class of cams would benefit from the 1g intake as they are not supper high RPM cams and most of us still run the 1g intake as it makes great power on the street. Looking forward to the tests!

 

[tkelly27]

Total duration also has an effect on overlap and/or when the valve action starts. A turbo engine is just as affected by overlap as it is by duration @ .05.

The Kelford's higher lift allows it to have a wider .05 duration for the same amount of overlap other 272 cams offer. This gives you more area under the lift curve for the same amount of overlap with a given lobe separation angle.

So the are 272's, and if they have better ramp rates, you can get good gains without giving up as much bottom end. It was a big thing in the world of small block dodges. They have wider lifters so they could have higher ramp rates. More power out of streetable cams. That was what the ads said anyway : /

This test will be neat. Make sure you degree them all. I think they get a bad rap because they aren't ever degreed in properly.

 

[TSimage]

Will this test be using the 1g intake or a SMIM?? I think this class of cams would benefit from the 1g intake as they are not supper high RPM cams and most of us still run the 1g intake as it makes great power on the street. Looking forward to the tests!

Your statement tells me you have no idea about the property of the cams being tested.

The BC272s might perform better with the stock manifold and the HKS 272s will be in the middle. The Kelfords however will be bottle necked drastically, almost to the point that it'd be pointless to use. But you never know. The Kelfords have an odd design that makes power all over the place so it will be good to see. The thing with the test is it is very beneficial to have more real life example, there's just no benefit for Delta since they don't prove a damn thing concerning their products which is unfortunate.

 

[JMGSX]

Couple questions:

1. Will a "base run" be performed with stock cams?

2. Will all the cams be dropped in "straight up" or will they be degreed?

 

[jrohner]

I think they should just be dropped in with stock cam gears. That's how most would run their cams anyways.

 

[Calan]

I think they should just be dropped in with stock cam gears. That's how most would run their cams anyways.

I would think degreeing them would be better. Otherwise, any non-stock geometry of the test engine may benefit one cam more than another. It seems that degreeing them would provide a more level playing field to begin with.

 

[FLASH1970]

You should also take some video of each setup at idle and WOT...

subscribed.

 

[rEclipserGST]

I would think degreeing them would be better. Otherwise, any non-stock geometry of the test engine may benefit one cam more than another. It seems that degreeing them would provide a more level playing field to begin with.

I understand what your saying, but wouldn't dropping them in "untouched (aka undegreed)" provide the raw attributes of each cam straight out the box from the manufacturer?

 

[Killa_dsm]

I am very interested in this, and can't wait to see the results. And as JMGSX asked will the stock cams be tested as well as a base line? Because I would be interested to see how they would compare to stock.

Thanks for doing this test!

 

[keltalon]

Will this test be using the 1g intake or a SMIM?? I think this class of cams would benefit from the 1g intake as they are not supper high RPM cams and most of us still run the 1g intake as it makes great power on the street. Looking forward to the tests!

It will be done using 1g manifold. this is what I have always ran.

 

[dsm-onster]

I understand what your saying, but wouldn't dropping them in "untouched (aka undegreed)" provide the raw attributes of each cam straight out the box from the manufacturer?

Not really because keltalon may have other difference than your build and both may have differences from my build. Cam timing is something that follows very specificly to the setup.

Will this test be using the 1g intake or a SMIM?? I think this class of cams would benefit from the 1g intake as they are not supper high RPM cams and most of us still run the 1g intake as it makes great power on the street. Looking forward to the tests!

Well thats the problem Kelford 272s being that they have 226 duration cams fall under the superhigh rpm "class". That's higher duration than most 288s, as I said too many times already.

Bender, yes, I'm not bickering with you at all. We are definately saying the same thing. I just feel that a cam should be placed in catagories where the measurements known tell us what the cam will really do. For years advertized duration has been known by us amatures as really rather pointless and deceiving (not intentionally. . . for the most part ).

The reason why I think cams with the same "usable" duration should be tested together is because then we get to see what their specific ramp rates, overlaps, peak lifts, and timing out of the box will do. . .So we'll be better educated about the minor differences of cams we choose for a specific rpm range. Because really no one looking at hks 272s, fp2s, bc 272sshould be looking at 226* duration @ .05"lift cams. Responds to different airflow momentum, which is at a different rpm or stroke.

 

[Bender]

I didn't think we were bickering, and thought we were having a fairly intelligent conversation. Our only discrepancy is the guidelines which we think the cams should abide by.

Also, this test would be completely pointless with the cams not being degreed for a few reasons:

1. Everyone's cam timing is different with stock cam gears due to different sized head gaskets, and heads getting machined.

2. Not every cam purchased from the same company is exactly the same! They have a few degrees tolerance out of the box, so even though delta cams A perform this well, they same type B won't. The base degree may be a few degrees off, which cam gears would fix.

3. Who the hell installs cams without degreeing them? It is just a half-ass way to do things. Gears are needed as much as valve springs. Even if you aren't going for the most power, degreeing them to the cam card will allow them to atleast work to how they were designed to.

 

[tkelly27]

Here is an example of cams with the same total duration, but different .05 duration.

http://www.thirdgen.org/tech/images/Camshaft_primer_m62c9d2d9.png

An easy way to tell how fast a camshafts ramp rate is to take the advertised duration, and subtract the duration @ .050".

SBC Camshafts ? A primer - ThirdGen.org

Ams Evo Cam Test - evolutionm.net

If you compare kelfords to 272 and 280's, you'll see they keep most of the low end of a 272, and deliver a lot of the top end of the (well designed) 280's do.

I agree on the head milling, block decking, manufacturing defects. I'd imagine most people don't own a degree wheel or adjustable cam gears. Maybe a straight up vs. dialed in comparison? I guess you could also go as far as optimum cam alignment.

 

[Calan]

3. Who the hell installs cams without degreeing them?

My guess would be about 80% of the people on this site that changes cams.

 

[keltalon]

My guess would be about 80% of the people on this site that changes cams.

I have always installed my cams straight up and spent time tuning them to my setup. The reason is when blocks are deck and heads are milled and valve seats are cut it changes a whole lot of the stock measurements. Therefore i spend the extra time dialing a particular set of cams to get a tune thats will yeild the best results.

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

My guess would be about 80% of the people on this site that changes cams.

I'm willing to bet that number is much higher. Probably closer to 90-95%.

######

 

[TSIfreek]

Not really because keltalon may have other difference than your build and both may have differences from my build. Cam timing is something that follows very specificly to the setup.



Well thats the problem Kelford 272s being that they have 226 duration cams fall under the superhigh rpm "class". That's higher duration than most 288s, as I said too many times already.

Bender, yes, I'm not bickering with you at all. We are definately saying the same thing. I just feel that a cam should be placed in catagories where the measurements known tell us what the cam will really do. For years advertized duration has been known by us amatures as really rather pointless and deceiving (not intentionally. . . for the most part ).

The reason why I think cams with the same "usable" duration should be tested together is because then we get to see what their specific ramp rates, overlaps, peak lifts, and timing out of the box will do. . .So we'll be better educated about the minor differences of cams we choose for a specific rpm range. Because really no one looking at hks 272s, fp2s, bc 272sshould be looking at 226* duration @ .05"lift cams. Responds to different airflow momentum, which is at a different rpm or stroke.

Then this test we will see how the kelfords differ in RPM power compaired to the others.

 

[keltalon]

Then this test we will see how the kelfords differ in RPM power compaired to the others.

Here's what I am interested in fellas. I will dyno the Delta K272's last for the simple reason I am going to see what they will do when I advance the ex and advance the intake to bring the powerband closer in sinc with the 1g intake manifold. Also I will be decreasing the overlap to see how the cams react to my set up. My thinking is with the higher lift and the longer physical duration and my cam gear settings the car will net a good bit of streetable horsepower gain without sacrificing drivability. These are just my thoughs let me know how you feel about this concept I have just revealed some of the secrets in the 504 that i put down. People offten ask me how did you get that bw s 259 to spool up so quick in the rpm band now you know!

 

[Bender]

You will be sacrificing one way or the other unless you are running a twin scroll setup. The cam card is *supposed* to be a nice compromise. Personally, I would advance the intake to get the power band to your liking, then retard the exhaust to get the spool you want.. even though it will mess with your powerband. Seems it will be the best compromise for your setup.

 

[keltalon]

Well I finally got the BC 272s installed. I also installed a set of BC cam gears for the tuning. Idle is not bad the car lopes a little. Sound a little mean I must say I am somewhat impressed the car is very streetable I guess the stock intake manifold works well with the BC 272s. I will be hitting the dyno Saturday to get the real deal on these cams. Stay tuned for the numbers. I chose to dyno the BC cams first because they got to me first so I went ahead and installed them.

You will be sacrificing one way or the other unless you are running a twin scroll setup. The cam card is *supposed* to be a nice compromise. Personally, I would advance the intake to get the power band to your liking, then retard the exhaust to get the spool you want.. even though it will mess with your powerband. Seems it will be the best compromise for your setup.

Thanks for the input. I will definitely try it!

 

[coppersmith]

I didn't think we were bickering, and thought we were having a fairly intelligent conversation. Our only discrepancy is the guidelines which we think the cams should abide by.

Also, this test would be completely pointless with the cams not being degreed for a few reasons:

1. Everyone's cam timing is different with stock cam gears due to different sized head gaskets, and heads getting machined.

2. Not every cam purchased from the same company is exactly the same! They have a few degrees tolerance out of the box, so even though delta cams A perform this well, they same type B won't. The base degree may be a few degrees off, which cam gears would fix.

3. Who the hell installs cams without degreeing them? It is just a half-ass way to do things. Gears are needed as much as valve springs. Even if you aren't going for the most power, degreeing them to the cam card will allow them to atleast work to how they were designed to.

ok what if ## tuner claims they dont need to degreed? i have always thought u needed to degree aftermarket cams but my tuner thinks otherwise. what kind of performance gains am i missing out on?