Cam choice for my setup and future setup looking for advice

[superorange]

This is my current setup more or less.


Bolt-on Modifications: fp18g, 255 fuel pump , fmic busher stage 3, 1000cc injectors,tail bov, 3" turbo back exhaust, evo 3 exhaust mani, fpr.

Engine Management:
dsm link, gm maf, maft

Engine Internals:
eagle rods, wiesco pistons, acl, arp

Drivetrain Modifications:
act 2600, act lighten flywheel

Suspension Modifications:
big brakes, hks shocks and springs

I'm currently running e85 and 28psi with 78% injector duty.

I just ordered evo 8 springs and retainers and a flatout hg. There is just so much info saying different things about every cams out there it's kind of hard to tell what to listen to and what not to. What cams would be best to get the most out of my current setup? Also I plan on going with a holset or the s258 next. I'm currently looking at 272's and even some dsmgraveyard 274's. Do you think 274's are too aggressive for my setup? Or are the 272's not gonna give me a lot of gains? I honestly don't even know how much cams will really help my power levels.

 

[e85_4g63]

My honest opinion would be to order a set of Delta 272 regrinds (there original 272's, not the K272). Or get the GSC s1 cams if you have a little more money to play with. I would pick the S1's personally, but they are about $150 more then the Delta's.

 

[superorange]

I'm kinda on a budget since I want to upgrade turbo soon and will then have to upgrade my fuel setup. What kinda gains should I expect from the 272's? Will it be noticeable?

 

[keltalon]

My honest opinion would be to order a set of Delta 272 regrinds (there original 272's, not the K272). Or get the GSC s1 cams if you have a little more money to play with. I would pick the S1's personally, but they are about $150 more then the Delta's.

Part # for their original are H-272 perfect for the mods you have listed but they are regrinds and you have to use shims. K-272 are the new grinds and they massive and are cut from new billet cores.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

I have not used any cams yet so I can't tell you what cams would be good for your setup. But I do know that to get the most power out of your cams when you change them like that you need to install larger valves. As when installing cams with a different lift your trying to suck in more air\fuel but will not see the best gains you can get from a set of cams when sucking through stock valve system. To get the most out of your cams you need to enlarge your valves.

 

[keltalon]

I have not used any cams yet so I can't tell you what cams would be good for your setup. But I do know that to get the most power out of your cams when you change them like that you need to install larger valves. As when installing cams with a different lift your trying to suck in more air\fuel but will not see the best gains you can get from a set of cams when sucking through stock valve system. To get the most out of your cams you need to enlarge your valves.

So if I understand you correctly he should not even think about cam upgrade until he enlarge his valves first? Please enlighten me I want to know more. Op may I ask what are your goal as far as power increase. Is your car a dd? Or are you a weekend warrior. Just curious and want to know before I give further recommendations. You are on th right track though that is seeking advise from the boards many have been down this road so no need to reinvent the wheel if you know what I mean

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

What turbine side are you planning on getting with the Holset/BW? Bolt on? Open/Divided T3? Divided T4 on the S200sx?

I would think about that and then make your choice for the future.

No sense in getting a big cam and then going with a small hotside, because they'll be fighting eachother on the top end.

What sort of power band are you looking for?

My BW S200sx-59 in the Divided T4 and a Kelford 280/276 had a very broad powerband and pulled through my self-imposed 9250 redline (I didnt think my BC springs were up to the job at the time)

That same S200sx in the BEP bolt on housing on GM272s was still a ton of fun, with full boost of 35-37psi coming up before 5k and running out to 8100 (stock springs, admittedly a poor idea).

The difference when I went bigger on the cam and the hotside was night and day. At the same boost I picked up 8lbs/min and was able to add timing out the top end.

 

[keltalon]

What turbine side are you planning on getting with the Holset/BW? Bolt on? Open/Divided T3? Divided T4 on the S200sx?

I would think about that and then make your choice for the future.

No sense in getting a big cam and then going with a small hotside, because they'll be fighting eachother on the top end.

What sort of power band are you looking for?

My BW S200sx-59 in the Divided T4 and a Kelford 280/276 had a very broad powerband and pulled through my self-imposed 9250 redline (I didnt think my BC springs were up to the job at the time)

That same S200sx in the BEP bolt on housing on GM272s was still a ton of fun, with full boost of 35-37psi coming up before 5k and running out to 8100 (stock springs, admittedly a poor idea).

The difference when I went bigger on the cam and the hotside was night and day. At the same boost I picked up 8lbs/min and was able to add timing out the top end.

This
Post is also very important that is why I would like to know your goal this will help us help you. Thanks

 

[e85_4g63]

I have not used any cams yet so I can't tell you what cams would be good for your setup. But I do know that to get the most power out of your cams when you change them like that you need to install larger valves.

Completely untrue.

To get the most out of your cams you need to enlarge your valves.

Not with the cam size we are talking about here. 272's don't need anything larger then the stock size valves to work at there peak. I remember, specifically Shep, running in the low 9's on completely stock valves, running HKS 272 cams.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

I have not used any cams yet so I can't tell you what cams would be good for your setup. But I do know that to get the most power out of your cams when you change them like that you need to install larger valves. As when installing cams with a different lift your trying to suck in more air\fuel but will not see the best gains you can get from a set of cams when sucking through stock valve system. To get the most out of your cams you need to enlarge your valves.

If you haven't any experience with any cams, how do you "know" any of this?

Please do not post misinformation.

 

[superorange]

The car splits time with my moto as my daily. So I'm not worried about anything like that. And my plans for the turbo are unknown at this point it's really whatever I get a good deal on. I want to make 500 or in that ballpark. That's the only problem I have is not having a set turbo in mind. And I don't want a car that doesn't hit full boost till 6200rpm you know. I use the car for drag racing and it'll never see a roadcourse or anything like that. I also was looking to spray my current setup but so far my thread on that topic went no where. Hope this helps a little more. Also what do you guys think 272's will be like on my current setup? As far as holsets go if I get one it'll be in the t3 bep housing if that helps.

 

[keltalon]

If you haven't any experience with any cams, how do you "know" any of this?

Please do not post misinformation.

Land speed when I first read his post my first reaction was to post exactly what what you posted but I changed my post because I knew his post was full of it. I have been trying lately to not be so argumentative on the boards but just to put the burden of proof back on the poster who post i have issue with ecspecially when the post is unreasonably insane. E-85 Good point about shep running 9s using stock valves. I hope to myself break into the 600whp club next week with the stock size vavles as well as using the JDM cyclone intake manifold

 

[Force Fed 4g63]

Slap on some FP2's or CompCams 101200's (same cam) and go, you will be happy with them. You can get a used set for around $300. And yes I have used them and made great power with them so I'm not posting misinformation.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Your still on medium frame turbos, no need to worry about lag really.

If you are afraid of anything with more lag than a 16G, a 500whp capable pump gas turbo might not be for you.

The S200 (56, 58 or 59) series or the 7-blade HX35 in the Open T3 .70A/R BEP housing is going to be hit or miss to make a safe 500+ whp on pump 93 depending on everything else in your setup.

You would almost be at the point of going to a bolt-on or .70A/R Open T3 HX40 to make it easier to hit your goal.

And remember, some of these turbos dont really "hit" like the 14b/16gs until the boost is north of 30psi. So just because it feels laggy doesnt mean your not actually going faster. The sensation of speed will just be different, because you are changing the power band.

A set of DKS/BC/GM 272s, the Kelford 264s or GSC S1's would compliment it well, obviously you need a good spring set, Kigglys are what I would recommend, and some adjustable gears would be well worth it..

I honestly would recommend going with the stock housings on the HX35 or the S200sx, be it divided T3 or divided T4 and going straight to a bigger "272" cam

The divided T3 12cm2 HX35 for instance, would go real well with a FP2x/K272/GSC S2 and a 3.5" turbo back exhaust.

Land speed when I first read his post my first reaction was to post exactly what what you posted but I changed my post because I knew his post was full of it. I have been trying lately to not be so argumentative on the boards but just to put the burden of proof back on the poster who post i have issue with ecspecially when the post is unreasonably insane. E-85 Good point about shep running 9s using stock valves. I hope to myself break into the 600whp club next week with the stock size vavles as well as using the JDM cyclone intake manifold

I'm still working on my forum etiquette

 

[keltalon]

The car splits time with my moto as my daily. So I'm not worried about anything like that. And my plans for the turbo are unknown at this point it's really whatever I get a good deal on. I want to make 500 or in that ballpark. That's the only problem I have is not having a set turbo in mind. And I don't want a car that doesn't hit full boost till 6200rpm you know. I use the car for drag racing and it'll never see a roadcourse or anything like that. I also was looking to spray my current setup but so far my thread on that topic went no where. Hope this helps a little more. Also what do you guys think 272's will be like on my current setup? As far as holsets go if I get one it'll be in the t3 bep housing if that helps.

Well here is a dyno of my old set up. The turbo used was the bw s259 extended tip , stock intake manifold, evo 3 exhaust manifold, bep bolt on .55ar housing stock 2g mas. the car was a beast on the streets. By the way this was with stock size valves also. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dyno-talk/349759-welcome-me-500hp-club-bw-s259.html

 

[keltalon]

Forgot to mention the cams I was running on that 500hp dyno was hks 264s this was the last dyno before I started testing various cams http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...est-delta-hks-272-delta-k272-bc-272-cams.html

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Thats another good point, I was using a 4" FP intake pipe with a huge K&N filter running SD on V3 and a very large 3" FMIC and a 3" open downpipe with a dumped O2 when I was running the DSM bolt on housing with my S200-59.

Also worth mentioning the Port/Polish/Blend/Knife-edge and gasket match job I did on my 1G TBody/intake/head and all the way out through the 2G manifold went a long way.

I used that same head/manifold/Tbody on my last dedicated 14B setup, the port/bowl/gasket etc. work was good for 3.x lbs/min more than before with same boost (21-23psi).

So take that as you will for what it may have gained me with the bigger turbos I've used on that particular motor since then.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

If you haven't any experience with any cams, how do you "know" any of this?

Please do not post misinformation.

Because I looked into it all when building my car and that was what my machine shop had told me I would need to do to be able to get more out of the cams. Though I think it may have been the other way around thinking about it. I was looking at enlarging my valves and they told me I would need cams to make the most power out of it. So I took them as being related. And If its completely untrue are you saying that enlarging the valves make absolutely no difference at all?

I did not in any way saying he "needed" to enlarge his valves to make power with those cams. Nor did I say you needed larger valves to make high power. I said in order to get the very most out of a more aggressive cam enlarging your valves would be needed to be done. So unless your saying and have proof that enlarging your valves when running a more aggressive cam setup does absolutely zero for performance then my statement is not false. If you can proof to me that it will do absolutely nothing then I will agree with you and accept my statement as false. Otherwise I am right.

 

[keltalon]

Because I looked into it all when building my car and that was what my machine shop had told me I would need to do to be able to get more out of the cams. Though I think it may have been the other way around thinking about it. I was looking at enlarging my valves and they told me I would need cams to make the most power out of it. So I took them as being related. And If its completely untrue are you saying that enlarging the valves make absolutely no difference at all?

I did not in any way saying he "needed" to enlarge his valves to make power with those cams. Nor did I say you needed larger valves to make high power. I said in order to get the very most out of a more aggressive cam enlarging your valves would be needed to be done. So unless your saying and have proof that enlarging your valves when running a more aggressive cam setup does absolutely zero for performance then my statement is not false. If you can proof to me that it will do absolutely nothing then I will agree with you and accept my statement as false. Otherwise I am right.

MJ. I thinks what the general concensus with 90% of us is you really don't need to enlarge your valves to reach the goal that most of us are trying to achieve. This is why the statements you made will get attacked by the majority. Thanks for helping us to understand what you were saying though although my personal preference is the stock size valves I have ran 1mm oversized before I couldn't justify the added valve train weight on my boosted engine

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Because I looked into it all when building my car and that was what my machine shop had told me I would need to do to be able to get more out of the cams. Though I think it may have been the other way around thinking about it. I was looking at enlarging my valves and they told me I would need cams to make the most power out of it. So I took them as being related. And If its completely untrue are you saying that enlarging the valves make absolutely no difference at all?

I did not in any way saying he "needed" to enlarge his valves to make power with those cams. Nor did I say you needed larger valves to make high power. I said in order to get the very most out of a more aggressive cam enlarging your valves would be needed to be done. So unless your saying and have proof that enlarging your valves when running a more aggressive cam setup does absolutely zero for performance then my statement is not false. If you can proof to me that it will do absolutely nothing then I will agree with you and accept my statement as false. Otherwise I am right.

There are a great many things to consider when modifying the valve train. A single post here wont really do it justice.

But, lets say you go with .5mm oversize valves, all you have done is increase the surface area by less than 3% (907.5mm2 vs. 934.4mm2) for our stock 34mm intake valves.

Now, that in and of itself is not going to accomplish much if anything, and is not necessarily going to increase the volume flow either, if on a stock unmodified head with casting flaws and overhang abound in the ports and bowls, with rough runners and seams along the ports with non gasket matched intake manifold and all the gunk built up in there from the PCV/EGR and the like.

Not only that but it is not even addressing whether you have changed the angle of entry from the port, its merely making the valve hat bigger and re-cutting the seat.

You can completely eclipse the gains from that by merely going with a cam of the same duration/lsa/ramp rate by increasing the lift .050" as the average lift throughout that duration has increased. Additionally, going with the bigger valve, you may have decreased port velocity at certain sections of the rev range and actually hurt cylinder filling/VE instead of improved flow.

Now, a bigger valve, when used to compliment work done to address everything above, in addition to a big cam and a raised rev limit would have some merit. But by itself it is not going to make much of a difference and may even hurt depending on the nuances of your particular goals/setup

So the difference can effectively be zero net benefit. And were I you, I would worry less about being right and more about getting hands on experience instead of relying on what others have told you.

I cannot stress this enough, and around here you run into this alot.

Many things passed around as common knowledge, like a big FMIC causing more lag, is usually not based on fact but more on feeling.

 

[keltalon]

There are a great many things to consider when modifying the valve train. A single post here wont really do it justice.

But, lets say you go with .5mm oversize valves, all you have done is increase the surface area by less than 3% (907.5mm2 vs. 934.4mm2) for our stock 34mm intake valves.

Now, that in and of itself is not going to accomplish much if anything, and is not necessarily going to increase the volume flow either, if on a stock unmodified head with casting flaws and overhang abound in the ports and bowls, with rough runners and seams along the ports with non gasket matched intake manifold and all the gunk built up in there from the PCV/EGR and the like.

Not only that but it is not even addressing whether you have changed the angle of entry from the port, its merely making the valve hat bigger and re-cutting the seat.

You can completely eclipse the gains from that by merely going with a cam of the same duration/lsa/ramp rate by increasing the lift .050" as the average lift throughout that duration has increased. Additionally, going with the bigger valve, you may have decreased port velocity at certain sections of the rev range and actually hurt cylinder filling/VE instead of improved flow.

Now, a bigger valve, when used to compliment work done to address everything above, in addition to a big cam and a raised rev limit would have some merit. But by itself it is not going to make much of a difference and may even hurt depending on the nuances of your particular goals/setup

This is why most guys who port and polish a head for a boosted engine will just clean the casting to allow the turbo to push air through the head without disturbance. Enlarging a valve IMO is not worth it on a forced induction engine to achieve increased volumetric efficiency this is done by the turbo forcing the air which save the engine the work of pulling it especially at the cost of putting more weight on the valve train MJ just think about it for a second. And if you disagree then all that matters is being happy with what you want to do right

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Well obviously trying to reduce pumping losses is always a good idea, but this may not always be the right approach. In a max effort head where everything else is addressed, I can see this having merit.

But really without tending to all the other items, the effects from this can range anywhere from beneficial, negligible or even detrimental.

Its a wash without more detail, honestly.

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

Its a wash without more detail, honestly.

True it does need more. I had looked into doing all that during my build. Had talked to a few pro's about port and polishing the head, changing the intake, doing internal work on the intake to create a vortex action as the air enters the chamber, running pretty aggressive cams(possibly two different cams) enlarging the valves, full engine balancing, etc. etc. And I guess I kinda threw what I had been contemplating and researching on doing with my car and implied it with his. My apologies.

I do in fact understand what all must be done to make the process worth while. I may not have a ton of experience but I knew a few people who have built many engines and some still build for a living, performance and stock and that's where I get most of my info from. I would in no wise state something said by an unknown. Again I agree with ya'll that 90% of ppl don't need this and apologize for implying it in his situation.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

The thing that were getting on you for though, more to the point, is that either way.. you don't really know that stuff.

You are still regurgitating what you were told, and passed it off as though it were first hand, grounded in experience.

This is where many errors in translation take place, and many misconceptions can arise and others can take that and run with it, as gospel. Which happens surprisingly often.

While I don't doubt what you were told is reliable and tested advice, this is the sort of thing where you should defer to the people posting who have direct experience and data in the matter.

Let those who know directly what they are talking about with this platform help the OP.

 

[e85_4g63]

So OP, what you are looking for (to answer your question, in my opinion) is the Delta H272 or GSC s1 cams. (or FP2's). How much are you looking to spend?