Building a 7 Bolt

[fmars62]

Hey everyone, I about to go pickup this talon on saturday. Its a 97 TSi awd, stock 7 bolt. Only thing done to it is intake, exhaust, fmic, turbo timer, boost gauge and a few other minor things. Now it has 80k original miles on it.

I have done research and I know 7 bolts are more prone to crankwalk than 6 bolts, but I really dont want to go and buy a whole new engine. My goal is 400awhp. Can i do this on a 7 bolt? What will I need?

 

[fmars62]

Ecmlink isn't the cookie cutter tune that the cobb is. It's a standalone EMS that utilizes the factory ecu. You will need your laptop to tune with it, but if you know nothing about tuning it's the easiest one to tune with. Most parameters ecmlink will tell you how to adjust, so you don't have to do the thinking. Or you could jump into ecuflash like I did and learn how to tune the harder way.

I definitely don't regret the way I learned how to tune, going from ecuflash to ecmlink I had a very firm understanding of what I was doing. The link to Evom I posted was my bible when I was learning. It has more information than you'd think you'd ever need.

So just a question to prepare me for tuning, since it is telling me how to tune, does it ask me if i have like this intake or this fuel pump, and then i type it in and it tunes itself?

The list I posted at the top would be a bare minimum to hit 400.

If you have a large budget I would suggest :

ARP Head Bolts/studs
Fresh Felpro/Mitsu Composite Headgasket
Water Pump (Gates/GMB/OEM)
Timing Set (Gates belt, oem tensioner, oem/gates pulleys)
DKS Camshafts FFWD Connection - Race Injuns That Will Freeze Your Brain
1g Throttle Body, Port matched 2g intake manifold.
Evo 3 / Forced Performance Manifold
20g or Holset
750-850cc Injectors
255lph Walbro (be prepared to get an AFPR, some people run without them, most will tell you to get one)
Fuel Pump rewire (STM)
1g BOV (possibly crushed/garage modded)
PR/VRSF Fmic
New clutch, your gonna kill the one you have at 400 whp.

Must, must, must get
Wideband o2 sensor, way to tune (DSM Link, evo 8 ecu + evo scan, ecuflash, H8 eclipse ecu (black box ecu)

Other good stuff
3" Turbo back exhaust
Intake

I dont necessarily have a large budget but i think i can afford all of this if i find it for the right prices. Here is the list of mods on the car right now:

Fairly new stage 1 clutch
3"HKS turboback exhaust
Dejon intake
Dejon Blowoff valve.
Bob apexi turbotimer
Autometer boost gauge
Fmic
Tsw rims
Mishimotor rad fan
Grex shift knob

 

[fmars62]

Fairly new stage 1 clutch ----- ACT 2100.
3"HKS turboback exhaust -- to save you money maybe a custom exhaust.
Dejon intake ----- grab a ebay intake pipe and a Quality filter.
Dejon Blowoff valve ---- 1g BOV.
Bob apexi turbotimer ---- Personal preference but you dont really need it.
Autometer boost gauge & wideband.
Fmic
Tsw rims ---- dont worry about rims.
Mishimotor rad fan ---- no need for this.
Grex shift knob ---- stick with OEM; best shift knob IMO.

Look into what the other guys have mentioned; maintence first. The visual stuff is just for looking cool and since you dont have a large budget get whats necssary to make you reach your HP goal.

Are you saying i should get rid of my exhaust for a custom one? And get rid of my BOV for a 1G and so on?

And i know, i was just posting what the car has...

 

[MN_Eclipze]

^ funny me I missed that. If that is on the car already than no but do consider the other mod that other member have mentioned. You dont need to build the engine to reach the 400hp. Im running a stock 7bolt with 100k with a B16g pumping 320whp E85 on a dyno dynamic.

 

[Tyeler18]

So just a question to prepare me for tuning, since it is telling me how to tune, does it ask me if i have like this intake or this fuel pump, and then i type it in and it tunes itself?



I dont necessarily have a large budget but i think i can afford all of this if i find it for the right prices. Here is the list of mods on the car right now:

Fairly new stage 1 clutch
3"HKS turboback exhaust
Dejon intake
Dejon Blowoff valve.
Bob apexi turbotimer
Autometer boost gauge
Fmic
Tsw rims
Mishimotor rad fan
Grex shift knob

No, but it will ask you what size fuel injectors you're using and at what fuel pressure, from there it will give you good start out settings to use for injectors. It'll ask what MAF/SD set up you're using and gives you a good base from there as well. That's about all it has as far as "tuning itself." But from there once you're setup, the factory 2g maps are pretty good for lower boost (20psi and below) and you can do you're tweaking from there. If you stick with your 2g maf, you'll just have to get your injectors dialed in. Then you can adjust your air/fuel ratio and timing and that *for the most part* is all you're going to be doing. It's really very simple and the ecmlink website has lots of information on doing it.

The mods so far look pretty promising for you. Assuming it's been installed properly that is.

 

[fmars62]

No, but it will ask you what size fuel injectors you're using and at what fuel pressure, from there it will give you good start out settings to use for injectors. It'll ask what MAF/SD set up you're using and gives you a good base from there as well. That's about all it has as far as "tuning itself." But from there once you're setup, the factory 2g maps are pretty good for lower boost (20psi and below) and you can do you're tweaking from there. If you stick with your 2g maf, you'll just have to get your injectors dialed in. Then you can adjust your air/fuel ratio and timing and that *for the most part* is all you're going to be doing. It's really very simple and the ecmlink website has lots of information on doing it.

The mods so far look pretty promising for you. Assuming it's been installed properly that is.

Well how do I know how much boost to run, and how do I know what air/fuel ratio I should have?

God I feel like such a damn newb.

 

[Tyeler18]

That depends on a lot of factors, but on pump gas you'll want WOT AFR's in the high 10's/low-mid 11's. Boost is completely up to you. If you had a dyno you could continue to tune/turn up the boost until you reach your power goal. On the street you can log your airflow and continue to tune/turn up the boost until you're seeing the airflow numbers you want. Something like a 16g will flow around ~40lbs/min. A good estimator is taking your airflow x 10 to get your horsepower at the crank. So 40lbs/min = 400BHP. There's a lot more to it, but that gets you in the ball park. So for your 400hp goal, you're looking for airflow in the ~45lbs/min area. You'll just turn the boost up while tuning until you get to that airflow. There's way more into actually doing it, but take a few hours to read through that thread and watch the ecmlink videos and that will give you a much better understanding.

 

[fmars62]

That depends on a lot of factors, but on pump gas you'll want WOT AFR's in the high 10's/low-mid 11's. Boost is completely up to you. If you had a dyno you could continue to tune/turn up the boost until you reach your power goal. On the street you can log your airflow and continue to tune/turn up the boost until you're seeing the airflow numbers you want. Something like a 16g will flow around ~40lbs/min. A good estimator is taking your airflow x 10 to get your horsepower at the crank. So 40lbs/min = 400BHP. There's a lot more to it, but that gets you in the ball park. So for your 400hp goal, you're looking for airflow in the ~45lbs/min area. You'll just turn the boost up while tuning until you get to that airflow. There's way more into actually doing it, but take a few hours to read through that thread and watch the ecmlink videos and that will give you a much better understanding.

Now that is at the crank, isnt like 30% of the power lost before it gets to the wheels?

Also, I am still a little sketched out by not building the internals, I jsut want to be sure that it will be safe. If it is not necessary for my power goals then I wont build them, so 400-500hp they are okay?

 

[Tyeler18]

Now that is at the crank, isnt like 30% of the power lost before it gets to the wheels?

Also, I am still a little sketched out by not building the internals, I jsut want to be sure that it will be safe. If it is not necessary for my power goals then I wont build them, so 400-500hp they are okay?

It varies from auto/manual and so forth, but that's a good estimate. I'd say most people flowing 45lbs/min will dyno around the 400 mark, but obviously not all dyno's are equal.

As long as the tune is good 400 is a safe mark. When the time comes though you're going to want to make sure your tune is spot on and you're not going to come close to maxing your injectors or having a fuel pump fail or anything.

 

[WES_393]

Now that is at the crank, isnt like 30% of the power lost before it gets to the wheels?

Also, I am still a little sketched out by not building the internals, I jsut want to be sure that it will be safe. If it is not necessary for my power goals then I wont build them, so 400-500hp they are okay?

Around 10-15% can be lost through a 5-speed AWD drivetrain. So with 450 to the crank, you should have around 400 to the wheels.

And yes, the 7-bolt is much stronger than most give it credit for. The most important part is a good tune. You can break a built 7-bolt at 300hp if the tune is junk while a stock 7-bolt will easily handle 400hp if the tune is spot-on. However, I wouldn't be comfortable pushing a stock 7-bolt past 450hp. Which is still a ton of power for a stock block street car.

edit- Tyler beat me to it.

 

[fmars62]

It varies from auto/manual and so forth, but that's a good estimate. I'd say most people flowing 45lbs/min will dyno around the 400 mark, but obviously not all dyno's are equal.

As long as the tune is good 400 is a safe mark. When the time comes though you're going to want to make sure your tune is spot on and you're not going to come close to maxing your injectors or having a fuel pump fail or anything.

Would 500 be pushing it? I just want to prepare myself because I know i will want more power down the road so if i start at 400 i might want to bump up to 500.

 

[Tyeler18]

Around 10-15% can be lost through a 5-speed AWD drivetrain. So with 450 to the crank, you should have around 400 to the wheels.

And yes, the 7-bolt is much stronger than most give it credit for. The most important part is a good tune. You can break a built 7-bolt at 300hp if the tune is junk while a stock 7-bolt will easily handle 400hp if the tune is spot-on. However, I wouldn't be comfortable pushing a stock 7-bolt past 450hp. Which is still a ton of power for a stock block street car.

edit- Tyler beat me to it.

Agree 100%. It's annoying seeing everyone swapping 6 bolts and going through the hassle for no real reason IMO. The CW scare was enough to get everyone swapping them out. People like Will and Cory though have really changd the mindset though.

Would 500 be pushing it? I just want to prepare myself because I know i will want more power down the road so if i start at 400 i might want to bump up to 500.

My best advice- get to 400 first. Then see where you want to go from there. Set your goal at 500, shoot for 400 though. 400hp is quite a bit of power. I'm sure eventually you'll get bored with it and want more, but aim for 400 and from there you'll see what it takes for 500. See how it handles 400, if you feel comfortable taking the engine higher, than you can from there.

 

[fmars62]

Also, do I want to get a little laptop for tuning like a NetBook? I have a MacBook Pro right now as my laptop I use for school/music. Would it be smart to find one on Craigslist?

bumpity

 

[fmars62]

sorry to bring this back from the dead but what size injectors should i get? also what size intercooler? 7"?