Building a 7 Bolt

[fmars62]

Hey everyone, I about to go pickup this talon on saturday. Its a 97 TSi awd, stock 7 bolt. Only thing done to it is intake, exhaust, fmic, turbo timer, boost gauge and a few other minor things. Now it has 80k original miles on it.

I have done research and I know 7 bolts are more prone to crankwalk than 6 bolts, but I really dont want to go and buy a whole new engine. My goal is 400awhp. Can i do this on a 7 bolt? What will I need?

 

[TSI_93]

Engine With good compression, and good Leak Down results.
Arp Headstuds
Fuel Pump + Rewire
Injectors
20g or Holset or something similar
FMIC
Wideband
Link
Boost Gauge

 

[fmars62]

Engine With good compression, and good Leak Down results.
Arp Headstuds
Fuel Pump + Rewire
Injectors
20g or Holset or something similar
FMIC
Wideband
Link
Boost Gauge

Alright I figured the injectors, fuel pump, fmic.

But, why do i need headstuds? And what is the rewire for?

And what is wideband?

 

[Tyeler18]

You have a lot of reading to to. You need the head studs because the factory ones don't hold the cylinder pressures you're going to see *very well.

The rewire will provide constant reliable voltage to the pump, the factory wiring is small and when the pump requires a high demand, the wires can't keep up. The rewire will allow it to.

A wideband will give you your air fuel ratios. It's vital to tuning that you have one. Don't get the cheap "A/F ratio" gauges as they aren't a wideband.

Also, please don't bring up crankwalk. To put it simply it's a myth. Don't worry about it. The 7 bolts are arguably as strong as a 6 bolt, so forget about it completely.

 

[fmars62]

You have a lot of reading to to. You need the head studs because the factory ones don't hold the cylinder pressures you're going to see *very well.

The rewire will provide constant reliable voltage to the pump, the factory wiring is small and when the pump requires a high demand, the wires can't keep up. The rewire will allow it to.

A wideband will give you your air fuel ratios. It's vital to tuning that you have one. Don't get the cheap "A/F ratio" gauges as they aren't a wideband.

Also, please don't bring up crankwalk. To put it simply it's a myth. Don't worry about it. The 7 bolts are arguably as strong as a 6 bolt, so forget about it completely.

Gotchya. Just read some threads and FAQs on fuel pump rewiring.

Now what size injectors will be good? Also would cams be a good or bad idea?

 

[Tyeler18]

Gotchya. Just read some threads and FAQs on fuel pump rewiring.

Now what size injectors will be good? Also would cams be a good or bad idea?

A good quality set of cams would be good. Kelfords if you have the money are hands down one of the best cams you can get for DSM's.

As far as injectors, do you plan on running pump gas or do you have E85 access?

 

[BogusSVO]

A good quality set of cams would be good. Kelfords if you have the money are hands down one of the best cams you can get for DSM's.

As far as injectors, do you plan on running pump gas or do you have E85 access?

Yes Kelfords are good, but a bit of overkill for a 400hp build.
Plus that will mean a more expensive set of valve springs

About $1000 for that set up.

Now the BC272 cams W/ BC1100 springs and stock retainers will be more than enough to hit 400hp

And cost Less than $500

 

[Tyeler18]

Yes Kelfords are good, but a bit of overkill for a 400hp build.
Plus that will mean a more expensive set of valve springs

About $1000 for that set up.

Now the BC272 cams W/ BC1100 springs and stock retainers will be more than enough to hit 400hp

And cost Less than $500

Meh, everyone has their goals and always want more, kelfords allow room to grow. And I'm not a fan of BC's personally.

 

[fmars62]

A good quality set of cams would be good. Kelfords if you have the money are hands down one of the best cams you can get for DSM's.

As far as injectors, do you plan on running pump gas or do you have E85 access?

I plan on staying pump gas for now.

Yes Kelfords are good, but a bit of overkill for a 400hp build.
Plus that will mean a more expensive set of valve springs

About $1000 for that set up.

Now the BC272 cams W/ BC1100 springs and stock retainers will be more than enough to hit 400hp

And cost Less than $500

Alright, 272's wont be too big for my setup? I dont want to struggle when i floor it from the lift being too high.

Also i forgot to ask, what is the max hp on stock internals for a 7 bolt?

 

[Tyeler18]

I plan on staying pump gas for now.



Alright, 272's wont be too big for my setup? I dont want to struggle when i floor it from the lift being too high.

Also i forgot to ask, what is the max hp on stock internals for a 7 bolt?

750's on pump gas should be enough to get you there.

272's would be good for a more drag oriented application, if you want something a little more street friendly power wise, look into 264's.

As far as max power, that depends. I can tell you reliably* they can handle 400hp. From there it's all in the condition of the engine and the tune though. People have made in the 500's on 7 bolts, but not all engines are the same. The health and the tune are the keys to making it last.

 

[fmars62]

750's on pump gas should be enough to get you there.

272's would be good for a more drag oriented application, if you want something a little more street friendly power wise, look into 264's.

As far as max power, that depends. I can tell you reliably* they can handle 400hp. From there it's all in the condition of the engine and the tune though. People have made in the 500's on 7 bolts, but not all engines are the same. The health and the tune are the keys to making it last.

Alright, yeah before I start doing anything I plan on doing a compression, cylinder leak down, vacuum, and a boost leak test.

Also, I am somewhat new to the tuning, like i never used dsm link, wideband or anything, and i dont really want to be messing with that stuff since i really dont know what to do. Any good threads I can read in order to catch up and get familiar with them?

 

[Tyeler18]

Good that you are checking everything first, I'd suggest adding a timing belt to your list.

start [ECMTuning - wiki]

This isn't a link specific thread, but this will give you a very good understanding of what you're adjusting/changing. Also will give you insight into tuning if you decide to go to a 98/99 ecu or evo ecu instead of ecmlink:

How To Tune an Evo - evolutionm.net

 

[fmars62]

Good that you are checking everything first, I'd suggest adding a timing belt to your list.

start [ECMTuning - wiki]

This isn't a link specific thread, but this will give you a very good understanding of what you're adjusting/changing. Also will give you insight into tuning if you decide to go to a 98/99 ecu or evo ecu instead of ecmlink:

How To Tune an Evo - evolutionm.net

Thanks! And speaking of the timing belt, while im down there, should I get a balance shaft eliminator kit?

 

[9D9X]

I hate that word Crankwalk. That word spread like a virus. So not true. People started to blame every little thing that happed to their car on Crankwalk. SOOOOO overrated. Read this page from one of the best engine builders. Crankwalk Theory | Magnus Motorsports I will have to post a great site I found on how to adjust and bleed your clutch properly too...

 

[Tyeler18]

Do the balance shaft elimination and then port the oil filter housing. The BSE will raise your oil pressure, porting the oil filter housing will keep it at a good oil pressure. Takes 15-20 mins to do

 

[fmars62]

What fuel pump do you guys recommend?

 

[Tyeler18]

A walbro 255hp will be more than enough for your current goals. You can get them brand new with the install kit for $80. It's the only fuel pump I use for anything under 500hp builds. With the 255 you'll need an adjustable fuel pressure regulator though. Fuel lab/aeromotive are good brands I use/recommend. You can get the full install kits with the AFPR for ~$130 or less on here. I haven't paid over $100 for any of mine with the install kits, just depends on where you look. Brand new they're like $200+ pending which you get.

EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts

EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts

 

[9D9X]

I hate that word Crankwalk. That word spread like a virus. So not true. People started to blame every little thing that happed to their car on Crankwalk. SOOOOO overrated. Read this page from one of the best engine builders. Crankwalk Theory | Magnus Motorsports I will have to post a great site I found on how to adjust and bleed your clutch properly too...

Here are the sites....Clutch Pedeal Adjustment - Team Rip Engineering http://www.teamrip.com/how_to_properly_bleed_a_hydraulic_clutch_info.html

 

[dexterholland04]

If you want to make some good power on a stock 7-bolt, shoot me a PM and I can give you some good pointers. 400whp is super easy to do. And, there isn't much more you would need to do to make 600whp. I made just over 600whp on my stock 7-bolt, just keep in mind that even at 400+whp levels, the motor is going to be a bomb if you beat on it/track the car regularly.

 

[fmars62]

A walbro 255hp will be more than enough for your current goals. You can get them brand new with the install kit for $80. It's the only fuel pump I use for anything under 500hp builds. With the 255 you'll need an adjustable fuel pressure regulator though. Fuel lab/aeromotive are good brands I use/recommend. You can get the full install kits with the AFPR for ~$130 or less on here. I haven't paid over $100 for any of mine with the install kits, just depends on where you look. Brand new they're like $200+ pending which you get.

EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts

EXTREME PSI : Your #1 Source for In Stock Performance Parts

Thanks man! Really appreciate it.

But Why do I need a fuel regulator kit? How do I use it?

Like i said I am new to tuning, I only have done basic things with my NA Subaru, like exhaust, coilovers, wheels, and a hybrid intake.

 

[Tyeler18]

The factory regulator isn't meant to handle the flow a 255 produces, it will shortly over run the factory one. The AFPR allows you to adjust fuel pressure, and is meant to handle large amounts of fuel. On a scale of 1-10 it's a 2 on install/set up. It's just unbolting the old and bolting in the new.

 

[fmars62]

The factory regulator isn't meant to handle the flow a 255 produces, it will shortly over run the factory one. The AFPR allows you to adjust fuel pressure, and is meant to handle large amounts of fuel. On a scale of 1-10 it's a 2 on install/set up. It's just unbolting the old and bolting in the new.

Okay thanks. Now as for tuning with the ecm link, i though it was like the cobb accessport? Where its hand held and you just plug it in. As im reading those links you posted, it says i need to use my laptop.

 

[dexterholland04]

Here is my recipe for making 400+ on race gas:

ENGINE MANAGEMENT:
DSM Link v3 Full
Speed Density kit for Link
Hallman Pro Boost Controller

EXHAUST/TURBO:
RedJack Racing/Punishment Racing/or STM T3 manifold
Full 3" turbo-back exhaust
BEP T3 Housed HX-35

INTERCOOLER:
VRSF FMIC Kit

FUEL:
Walbro 255 HP
AFPR kit(RCI/Fuel Lab/Aeromotive)
1000cc Injectors (RCI/FIC)

ENGINE/TRANSMISSION:
ALL Maintenance items: Timing Belt, Water Pump, Head gasket
ARP Head studs
New Oil
Flush Trans
ACT Clutch (Even though I HATE ACT Clutches...)
More baller option: Quartermaster Twin Disk
HKS 272 Cams or Kelford 272 (using Evo 8 springs/retainers)

To me, that is the MINIMUM to make a reliable 400whp. In all honesty, you could probably make much more than 400whp with that list. To make even more, just throw a BEP T3 HX-40 on there and a decent SMIM, another fuel pump and some -8 feed/-6 return lines and you could make upper 500's/600's with that list.

Edit: Making good power is easy with the right combination of parts, not half-assing anything, and a good tune.

 

[Tyeler18]

Okay thanks. Now as for tuning with the ecm link, i though it was like the cobb accessport? Where its hand held and you just plug it in. As im reading those links you posted, it says i need to use my laptop.

Ecmlink isn't the cookie cutter tune that the cobb is. It's a standalone EMS that utilizes the factory ecu. You will need your laptop to tune with it, but if you know nothing about tuning it's the easiest one to tune with. Most parameters ecmlink will tell you how to adjust, so you don't have to do the thinking. Or you could jump into ecuflash like I did and learn how to tune the harder way.

I definitely don't regret the way I learned how to tune, going from ecuflash to ecmlink I had a very firm understanding of what I was doing. The link to Evom I posted was my bible when I was learning. It has more information than you'd think you'd ever need.

 

[TSI_93]

The list I posted at the top would be a bare minimum to hit 400.

If you have a large budget I would suggest :

ARP Head Bolts/studs
Fresh Felpro/Mitsu Composite Headgasket
Water Pump (Gates/GMB/OEM)
Timing Set (Gates belt, oem tensioner, oem/gates pulleys)
DKS Camshafts FFWD Connection - Race Injuns That Will Freeze Your Brain
1g Throttle Body, Port matched 2g intake manifold.
Evo 3 / Forced Performance Manifold
20g or Holset
750-850cc Injectors
255lph Walbro (be prepared to get an AFPR, some people run without them, most will tell you to get one)
Fuel Pump rewire (STM)
1g BOV (possibly crushed/garage modded)
PR/VRSF Fmic
New clutch, your gonna kill the one you have at 400 whp.

Must, must, must get
Wideband o2 sensor, way to tune (DSM Link, evo 8 ecu + evo scan, ecuflash, H8 eclipse ecu (black box ecu)

Other good stuff
3" Turbo back exhaust
Intake